Ange in or out?

[Bedfordspurs]

At least you're consistent.
You also called him a 'piece of sh-it' which is frankly a total disgrace.
You don't know the man at all, yet you levelled that at him.
It is very, very hard for me to control myself from saying what I really want to say to you regarding the way you express yourself with regards to him; I will say that I have a little chuckle whenever I read this sort of thing from you, knowing that the fact he WON A MAJOR TROPHY must hurt you given how concrete your stance on his 'inevitable failure' was pre-Final.

Don’t feed the troll

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

No, we wouldn't. I suspect he wouldn't either.




I do not believe he is interested in employing them full-time.


Given the root and branch job he had to do on arrival, plus our imbalanced recruitment policy among other admin errors, I'd say it's passably understandable, with the caveat that I would expect this third season to gel pretty quickly given the buy in/belief/return to fitness of several key players/no international tournament flogging/CL standard signings we must surely now make...

The job Ange had to do was significant, but no more than any other new head coach. 9/10 a head coach comes into a job because their predecessor has been sacked, or walked, partly due to issues with club management/recruitment etc.

It's very rare that a new head coach is handed the keys to a fully functioning motor. Arne Slot one example. David Moyes taking over from Fergie another. Although even with the Moyes example, I think Fergie chose to finally retire at that point as many of the key players that had just won his last title were well into their 30s and he felt he wasn't the man, age-wise and effort-wise to manage the inevitable and significant rebuild required.

Poch probably had as significant a rebuild requirement when he took us on. Similarly to Ange he i suppose limped (a bit) into 5th in his first season using a mismatch of previous signings and youth players (Mason and Bentaleb in midfield - come on!)

The difference was i think the very strong foundations being built that season and trajectory. Unlike Ange, Poch's first season started off slow and finished strongly as players bought into the system and tactics. Ange started like a train but results slid badly second half of the season.

Poch immediately kicked on 2nd season with really strong performances start to finish building a title challenging team competing on multiple fronts and maintaining a consistently strong level of performance, finishing 3rd in the PL, getting knocked out of the league cup by Arsenal and the Europa by a rampant Borussia Dortmund in the round of 16. The one disappointment being the FA Cup defeat to Palace.

Conte also inherited a mess and got us 4th. He was putting the foundations in place but walked like he does at so many jobs. He is a "now" manager really not one to oversee a rebuild.

I just don't see where Ange's rebuild is taking us other than away from where we want to be.

I say it again, forget issues with the club and recruitment. Over a year and a half into the job, FA Cup tie away to a really strong Villa side, that have pace and firepower up front and on both of the wings.

Minute 1: both full backs pushed up, DM pushed up, vacating the entire right side of our defence. Massive gap with their wide forward in acres of space, one pass, through on our goal, 1-0 down in the first minute. That's coaching and tactics, not anything to do with injuries, recruitment issues, anything else. That's on Ange and the coaching staff. It's not acceptable.

 

[thfcsteff]

The job Ange had to do was significant, but no more than any other new head coach. 9/10 a head coach comes into a job because their predecessor has been sacked, or walked, partly due to issues with club management/recruitment etc.

It's very rare that a new head coach is handed the keys to a fully functioning motor. Arne Slot one example. David Moyes taking over from Fergie another. Although even with the Moyes example, I think Fergie chose to finally retire at that point as many of the key players that had just won his last title were well into their 30s and he felt he wasn't the man, age-wise and effort-wise to manage the inevitable and significant rebuild required.

Poch probably had as significant a rebuild requirement when he took us on. Similarly to Ange he i suppose limped (a bit) into 5th in his first season using a mismatch of previous signings and youth players (Mason and Bentaleb in midfield - come on!)

The difference was i think the very strong foundations being built that season and trajectory. Unlike Ange, Poch's first season started off slow and finished strongly as players bought into the system and tactics. Ange started like a train but results slid badly second half of the season.

Poch immediately kicked on 2nd season with really strong performances start to finish building a title challenging team competing on multiple fronts and maintaining a consistently strong level of performance, finishing 3rd in the PL, getting knocked out of the league cup by Arsenal and the Europa by a rampant Borussia Dortmund in the round of 16. The one disappointment being the FA Cup defeat to Palace.

Conte also inherited a mess and got us 4th. He was putting the foundations in place but walked like he does at so many jobs. He is a "now" manager really not one to oversee a rebuild.

I just don't see where Ange's rebuild is taking us other than away from where we want to be.

I say it again, forget issues with the club and recruitment. Over a year and a half into the job, FA Cup tie away to a really strong Villa side, that have pace and firepower up front and on both of the wings.

Minute 1: both full backs pushed up, DM pushed up, vacating the entire right side of our defence. Massive gap with their wide forward in acres of space, one pass, through on our goal, 1-0 down in the first minute. That's coaching and tactics, not anything to do with injuries, recruitment issues, anything else. That's on Ange and the coaching staff. It's not acceptable.

Respectfully, as you do always articulate your opinions in detail, passionately, and in the spirit of debate, I think it's best I bow out. In the friendliest sense, let's agree to disagree on some things (not all).

 

[thfcsteff]

Don’t know if it’s gaslighting but the unprecedented European win was a bit of an overstep given we have won three previously.
Realise it could be commenting about the modern era but he should have caveated it as such

I recognise and see what you're saying, and winning this Europa League is the first time we have ever won a European competition in this format with this amount of games. It is also 'technically' the first time we have ever won the Europa League, albeit I'd be hypocritical to use that example too hard as I do think of it as the UEFA Cup still!

I think it was probably an emotionally charged slight overreach from a bloke who has been getting all sorts of abuse and sceptical questions for many months. I personally would not term it as gaslighting.

 

[thfcsteff]

Just seems strange to me going in to a 3rd season with so many big questions that need answering.

Are we going to adapt our day to day tactics? This is something we absolutely need to do - are we actually confident it'll happen and is it a priority of the manager to find a new way of playing suitable to the level of football?
If we do, will it be effective?
Is Ange-wall the alternative tactic or was it a needs-must to get a trophy over the line? Good to see that as a weapon in our armoury, but I'm not sure it's palatable as a regular approach to games - there needs to be balance between defense & attack.
Can we manage 2 games a week without sacrificing one of the competitons? We kinda managed during the group stage of EL but we won't be able to rotate to the same level in the CL.
Can we pick up results without our 'first choice back 5'?
Will our injury record improve or will we continue to have unexplainable luck for the 3rd year running?


Most of the talk regarding going in to next season seems to be around the EL win (obviously so tbf) and the buy-in that will bring, but does that answer any of the questions above? Especially when Ange himself has stated previously that having success in the way he wants to play is what gives the players confidence/faith in him & the approach. Does success with Ange-wall provide that same buy-in overall even though it was an alternative tactic?

Good questions for sure, and we'll all have our own guesses/perspectives on them. There's certainly no 'right' answer here.

I'll focus my answer on the bold-face above.
I think the centre-piece (for me personally) top every question asked revolves around the injury one. There should be a proper close season and proper pre-season with regards to international tournaments not taking place and players therefore getting some rest. I'd also hope we are going to invest again in the areas that need investment, and with more of an eye to the experience we need to blend with the youth we have. I think the queston about style and buy-in is interesting, as paradoxically, it could be asking them to play deep and not
Ange Ball in order to win the trophy that gets them the final few feet across the buy in line when he looks to be more attacking again. Personally, the one modification I think will stick is not sending the inverted FBs as high all the time. I feel that is the one thing he will modify. Let's see...I mean, let's see if he even gets the chance.

 

[Muttley]

My father worked for the council, my mother in an office.

So your dad was a bin man and

The job Ange had to do was significant, but no more than any other new head coach. 9/10 a head coach comes into a job because their predecessor has been sacked, or walked, partly due to issues with club management/recruitment etc.

It's very rare that a new head coach is handed the keys to a fully functioning motor. Arne Slot one example. David Moyes taking over from Fergie another. Although even with the Moyes example, I think Fergie chose to finally retire at that point as many of the key players that had just won his last title were well into their 30s and he felt he wasn't the man, age-wise and effort-wise to manage the inevitable and significant rebuild required.

Poch probably had as significant a rebuild requirement when he took us on. Similarly to Ange he i suppose limped (a bit) into 5th in his first season using a mismatch of previous signings and youth players (Mason and Bentaleb in midfield - come on!)

The difference was i think the very strong foundations being built that season and trajectory. Unlike Ange, Poch's first season started off slow and finished strongly as players bought into the system and tactics. Ange started like a train but results slid badly second half of the season.

Poch immediately kicked on 2nd season with really strong performances start to finish building a title challenging team competing on multiple fronts and maintaining a consistently strong level of performance, finishing 3rd in the PL, getting knocked out of the league cup by Arsenal and the Europa by a rampant Borussia Dortmund in the round of 16. The one disappointment being the FA Cup defeat to Palace.

Conte also inherited a mess and got us 4th. He was putting the foundations in place but walked like he does at so many jobs. He is a "now" manager really not one to oversee a rebuild.

I just don't see where Ange's rebuild is taking us other than away from where we want to be.

I say it again, forget issues with the club and recruitment. Over a year and a half into the job, FA Cup tie away to a really strong Villa side, that have pace and firepower up front and on both of the wings.

Minute 1: both full backs pushed up, DM pushed up, vacating the entire right side of our defence. Massive gap with their wide forward in acres of space, one pass, through on our goal, 1-0 down in the first minute. That's coaching and tactics, not anything to do with injuries, recruitment issues, anything else. That's on Ange and the coaching staff. It's not acceptable.

A couple of comments. The first a correction in my mind. Fergie's last squad was a mess. Moyes had problems everywhere with it and only got one big signing, Fellaini. Fergie's squad was old and had been hanging on for dear life under a great boss.

The second is where manager's should be in each stage, this one is like comparing managers in each other's jobs. It's incredibly hard to plot the Poch chronology against the Ange one. As an example, Poch's only real U21 was Dele. Poch had a mature set of players, a great team but a weak squad. Ange seems to have a deep squad and an improving first team. I will not disagree with you that he is coming up short tactically in managing it though. However, progress is never linear in football.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Can you offer examples? Genuinely interested.

The last 50 games averaging 1 point a game, 91 consecutive games without a decent performance, yet he persistently deflects the blame on everyone and everything else. It's pretty much 'flood the zone' Trumpism.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Definition of gaslighting

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where someone attempts to make another person doubt their own sanity, memory, or perception of reality. It's a way to control someone by eroding their confidence and sense of truth, often leaving them confused and dependent on the abuser's perspective.

• Definition:
  Gaslighting is a manipulative tactic that involves intentionally making someone question their own beliefs, memories, or perceptions of events.

Not sure Ange is gaslighting if he is he is failing miserably. unless you think everyone wanting him to stay is somehow under his mind control.
fudge maybe he is inside my head manipulating me into writing this.

Nuno's record well exceeds his. But Nuno was a nice guy. Ange is aggressive and hostile to the media and they let him get away without having to defend his appalling record and performances. He changes narrative and deflects the blame away. It's Poundland Mourinho (i.e. Mourinho without the coaching ability).

 

[Mikey10]

The last 50 games averaging 1 point a game, 91 consecutive games without a decent performance, yet he persistently deflects the blame on everyone and everything else. It's pretty much 'flood the zone' Trumpism.

I’m interested in why it was only after the EL win that we were let in on the plan to ditch the PL which he had apparently decided upon in January. My memory from January and February was him saying our PL results and league position would improve once our injury list reduced?

I may well be misremembering, though.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I’m interested in why we only heard about his plan to ditch the PL in January after we won the EL. My memory from January and February was him saying our results would improve once our injury list reduced?

I may well be misremembering, though.

I don't ever remember him not playing his strongest available team. Bar being a bit careful with vdV. Even in the the 2-3 weeks before the final he was needlessly using players like Bentancur, Solanke etc., when Hall and Scarlett would have done.

 

[HarryBreadbap]

Also fact is as manger he won a European trophy for the first time in 41 yeas. He also won our first trophy in 17 years. For me that is enough to be given another season. Am I biased absolutely I wanted Ange from the beginning so I am always going to lean his way. The guys in the video will always want Ange gone no matter what.

No need to be sorry discussion is good after all we both want Tottenham to be successful

I wish Daniel & the board would just bite the bullet & make a decision because the longer this goes on the more divided we become.. we should be celebrating not disagreeing over the manager

I think any manager who loses twenty two from thirty eight games at any professional sport would be finished.

To finish in the top four, a team usually loses a maximum of twelve games. I can't see this man winning ten more games next season.

Venkatesham and Paratici will also have some say in Ange's future.

Trophy win or not, the Premier League and securing membership of it is a priority. Of the final day standings of the last eleven seasons we would have been relegated, but have a nice shiny cup to take down with us.

Being in denial of the facts is a reasoning that many can't be helped, and I am all good with that.

Levy, Venkatesham and Paratici I suspect won't be.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Respectfully, as you do always articulate your opinions in detail, passionately, and in the spirit of debate, I think it's best I bow out. In the friendliest sense, let's agree to disagree on some things (not all).

Look, its been a bit of a roller coaster of (conflicting) emotions recently.

I didn't allow myself to park the negative and fully enjoy the (long awaited) glory without bringing along the baggage. That's not on Ange or anyone else but me. Not watching the parade was a moment of self-sabotage.

I posted some daft things on here, such as that I'd be done if Ange was kept on.

Reflecting on it all, I can see that there is a viable argument for keeping him on and that sacking him does come with its own issues, the risk of loss of momentum, the risk of internal and external criticism etc. It's not an opinion i agree with in any shape or form but its one that I can understand.

I'm also not an Oracle of football. If Ange stays he could build on the success and take us forward. But I dont see anything that suggests he will, thats all.

I'll be here to digest next season regardless.

The other thing that may have to be considered from the other side is if Paratici returns. Ideally, the Sporting Director should select the head coach and they should have similar philosophies. We all know Paratici favours a "build from the back" approach. I don't think he'd see Postecoglu as an ideal candidate.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

So your dad was a bin man and

A couple of comments. The first a correction in my mind. Fergie's last squad was a mess. Moyes had problems everywhere with it and only got one big signing, Fellaini. Fergie's squad was old and had been hanging on for dear life under a great boss.

The second is where manager's should be in each stage, this one is like comparing managers in each other's jobs. It's incredibly hard to plot the Poch chronology against the Ange one. As an example, Poch's only real U21 was Dele. Poch had a mature set of players, a great team but a weak squad. Ange seems to have a deep squad and an improving first team. I will not disagree with you that he is coming up short tactically in managing it though. However, progress is never linear in football.

Agreed on Fergie. I did caveat my point on that by alluding to your points.

Agreed on the difficulties in comparing coach performance directly. So many variables. Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Villa resurgence makes the PL even more competitive. 8th would not have been a bad season for us this year with the young players and Europa thrown into the mix, whereas during Poch's time 8th would have been a disappointment.

Don't agree with the squad comparison. Poch second season vs Ange second season by age (oldest to youngest)

Forster (37) vs Vorm (32)
Davies (32) vs Lloris (29)
Son (32) vs Fazio (29)
Werner (29) vs Vertonghen (29)
Vicario (28) vs Dembele (28)
Bissouma (28) vs Alderweireld (27)
Maddison (28) vs Walker (26)
Richarlison (28) vs Chadli (26)
Reguillon (28) vs Rose (25)
Solanke (27) vs Trippier (25)
Romero (27) vs Mason (25)
Bentancur (27) vs Eriksen (24)
Austin (26) vs Carroll (24)
Whiteman (26) vs Lamela (24)
Danso (26) vs Townsend (24)
Porro (25) vs Son (23)
Kulusevski (25) vs Pritchard (23)
Van de Ven (24) vs Davies (23)
Spence (24) vs Wimmer (23)
Johnson (24) vs Kane (22)
Dragusin (23) vs Dier (22)
Udogie (22) vs N'jie (22)
Sarr (22) vs Yedlin (22)
Kinsky (22) vs Bentaleb (21)
Scarlett (21) vs Ward (21)
Odobert (20) vs McGee (20)
Tel (20) vs Alli (20)
Bergvall (19) vs Winks (20)
Gray (19) vs Onomah (19)
Moore (17) vs Walker-Peters (19)
N/A vs Carter-Vickers (18)

 

[Raziel]

Just seems strange to me going in to a 3rd season with so many big questions that need answering.

Are we going to adapt our day to day tactics? This is something we absolutely need to do - are we actually confident it'll happen and is it a priority of the manager to find a new way of playing suitable to the level of football?
If we do, will it be effective?
Is Ange-wall the alternative tactic or was it a needs-must to get a trophy over the line? Good to see that as a weapon in our armoury, but I'm not sure it's palatable as a regular approach to games - there needs to be balance between defense & attack.
Can we manage 2 games a week without sacrificing one of the competitons? We kinda managed during the group stage of EL but we won't be able to rotate to the same level in the CL.
Can we pick up results without our 'first choice back 5'?
Will our injury record improve or will we continue to have unexplainable luck for the 3rd year running?


Most of the talk regarding going in to next season seems to be around the EL win (obviously so tbf) and the buy-in that will bring, but does that answer any of the questions above? Especially when Ange himself has stated previously that having success in the way he wants to play is what gives the players confidence/faith in him & the approach. Does success with Ange-wall provide that same buy-in overall even though it was an alternative tactic?

This is the core of the conversation plus some of the views @thfcsteff and @DubaiSpur were discussing

- Ange's tactics do not work in the PL
- The injury record across two seasons is unsustainable
- Team is too inexperienced, too many players were in 1st/2nd season at this level.
- He has delivered a trophy
- The players obviously have a good relationship with them, and he makes them believe (key to point above)

So what can we do (assumption Ange stays)?
- Has Ange acknowledged those things internally (he hasn't publicly, but he has to with club)
- Is there some fundamental change we are going to make in core tactics/system?
- Will we bring in some senior coaching staff with specific objectives?
- What is the medical perspective, did we ignore red lines, did we not rehabilitate players as expected?
- Add in some more senior players to squad

My concern is
- If we tweak Ange's system, with coaching support, with better medical team/data, and perhaps plug some player gaps (more experience?), that could be doable.
- If Ange is going to completely abandon the system (like in EL) and try to build a new one that is fundamentally different that what he has done for 29 years, why would we do that? better to find a manager that actually has a working system and the experience of using it.

And that comes back to a bit of weird question, do you want to give an older manager the chance to learn on the job, or invest in a younger manager?

 

[carl]

My concern is

- If Ange is going to completely abandon the system (like in EL) and try to build a new one that is fundamentally different that what he has done for 29 years, why would we do that? better to find a manager that actually has a working system and the experience of using it.

And that comes back to a bit of weird question, do you want to give an older manager the chance to learn on the job, or invest in a younger manager?

100% and that's a point I was trying to make a few days ago. He was employed based on what he believed, and now that has failed we have to hope he can come up with something else? Like you say, best to go with someone who doesn't have to reinvent them selves

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

This is the core of the conversation plus some of the views @thfcsteff and @DubaiSpur were discussing

- Ange's tactics do not work in the PL
- The injury record across two seasons is unsustainable
- Team is too inexperienced, too many players were in 1st/2nd season at this level.
- He has delivered a trophy
- The players obviously have a good relationship with them, and he makes them believe (key to point above)

So what can we do (assumption Ange stays)?
- Has Ange acknowledged those things internally (he hasn't publicly, but he has to with club)
- Is there some fundamental change we are going to make in core tactics/system?
- Will we bring in some senior coaching staff with specific objectives?
- What is the medical perspective, did we ignore red lines, did we not rehabilitate players as expected?
- Add in some more senior players to squad

My concern is
- If we tweak Ange's system, with coaching support, with better medical team/data, and perhaps plug some player gaps (more experience?), that could be doable.
- If Ange is going to completely abandon the system (like in EL) and try to build a new one that is fundamentally different that what he has done for 29 years, why would we do that? better to find a manager that actually has a working system and the experience of using it.

And that comes back to a bit of weird question, do you want to give an older manager the chance to learn on the job, or invest in a younger manager?

Sustainable Ange-style system needs an absolute top drawer no. 6 that is positionally excellent, defensively competent and good on the ball. Particularly, needs to have a quick long-range switch to either flank in the locker.

We need an opposite to Johnson on the left flank (I.e. an "outside" left footed winger that can consistently finish crosses at the back post and take a driven shot across goal from the left side of the box (i.e. not an inside forward like Son who cuts inside).

Full backs need to be toned down and one needs to stay and one needs to go. I'd look to upgrade Porro from a defensive stand point and move Porro himself further forward to compete with Johnson.

 

[Raziel]

Sustainable Ange-style system needs an absolute top drawer no. 6 that is positionally excellent, defensively competent and good on the ball. Particularly, needs to have a quick long-range switch to either flank in the locker.

We need an opposite to Johnson on the left flank (I.e. an "outside" left footed winger that can consistently finish crosses at the back post and take a driven shot across goal from the left side of the box (i.e. not an inside forward like Son who cuts inside).

Full backs need to be toned down and one needs to stay and one needs to go. I'd look to upgrade Porro from a defensive stand point and move Porro himself further forward to compete with Johnson.

So I think

- 100% a top draw 6 would help the system but that's probably true of any system
- Agree on the FB's, I think they need license in that one go, one stay, someone in midfield has covering duties
- I actually think in a way, neither Son or Johnson suit the system (weird to say with Johnson's output), I think the system expects much more traditional wingers (more Wilson than Johnson), but both Johnson and Son have a goal scoring ability that might be better served by having them play more inside, off the striker/running beyond striker.

But that all comes back to, does Ange see it that way?

 

[thfcsteff]

The last 50 games averaging 1 point a game, 91 consecutive games without a decent performance, yet he persistently deflects the blame on everyone and everything else. It's pretty much 'flood the zone' Trumpism.

Aren't you one of the people who bangs about 'straw-man' in this forum? I present a classic example above. Not to mention a thorough misrepresentation of the facts. Your comparison with Trumpism is offensive, and wholly inaccurate, lazy, click-bait BS. Trump seeks the public forum to spout total lies. Postecoglu is forced to answer the same stupid menial dumb questions week after week several times over. Does he have his own social media account?

 

[HarryBreadbap]

Look, its been a bit of a roller coaster of (conflicting) emotions recently.

I didn't allow myself to park the negative and fully enjoy the (long awaited) glory without bringing along the baggage. That's not on Ange or anyone else but me. Not watching the parade was a moment of self-sabotage.

I posted some daft things on here, such as that I'd be done if Ange was kept on.

Reflecting on it all, I can see that there is a viable argument for keeping him on and that sacking him does come with its own issues, the risk of loss of momentum, the risk of internal and external criticism etc. It's not an opinion i agree with in any shape or form but its one that I can understand.

I'm also not an Oracle of football. If Ange stays he could build on the success and take us forward. But I dont see anything that suggests he will, thats all.

I'll be here to digest next season regardless.

The other thing that may have to be considered from the other side is if Paratici returns. Ideally, the Sporting Director should select the head coach and they should have similar philosophies. We all know Paratici favours a "build from the back" approach. I don't think he'd see Postecoglu as an ideal candidate.

This is where the rubber meets the road.

I haven's seen any evidence where he will improve the team on the pitch.

In the EL competition, we succeeded pretty much with neither centre half, left back, and in the closing stages our Captain, and central midfield of Bergvall and Maddison but still won it.

When we had a fully fit squad in the PL we still lost for fun, and much tougher league over thirty eight games.

From my angle i didn't see any improvement despite Ange categorically stating that once we had our injured players back we "would see a different Spurs team"

We didn't and the losses continued unabated.

I can't see the signing of three, four or five players making any difference. At PL level the manager just can't cut it.

 

[metalgear]

those who want ange in but wanted conte/jose/nuno out, why?
the football is significantly worse which doesn't bode well for 25/26