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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 68 38.2%

  • Out

    Votes: 110 61.8%
  • Total voters
    178
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Oh how I long for the day when Postercoglu leaves as this thread will hopefully stops after 2/3 months with its repetitive posts labouring the same points over and over and over and over...........
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Don't worry

You can visit it in the other stuff when you miss it when people can argue over if we were wrong to get rid as he lifts the title with Celtic
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Oh how I long for the day when Postercoglu leaves as this thread will hopefully stops after 2/3 months with its repetitive posts labouring the same points over and over and over and over...........
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And the same people complaining over and over again about people complaining… 😃

Our worst ever league season as a club and fans are upset. It’s hard to comprehend.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Its 6 weeks or so of being in and around players and sussing them out. Working out who you think you can get the best out of and knowing by the start of the summer who needs to go. I think it would be an invaluable 6 weeks.
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No manager is leaving now to come to us. It will be after the end of the season, so it's either Ange or Mason until then....
 
Mikey10 said:
And the same people complaining over and over again about people complaining… 😃

Our worst ever league season as a club and fans are upset. It’s hard to comprehend.
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Oh I didn't realise, I've not noticed people posting that. We all have an opinion on the issue but to continue posting the same points regularly seems pointless and boring, all for a bit of originality or different views but the same 6/7 failings are continually posted.
 
Daveeeeeeeed said:
A bit like Arteta. When things going your way he is a delight to the press, but as soon as a loss or things not going your way he can be a taco. Unfortunately we have seen the majority of Ange being a taco because of the amount of losses and things not going his way. That has just stuck with me and it's not good for all involved.

I'm sure he will find somewhere where he is loved again, but his arrogance and his attacking of fans has made him a target for spurs fans now. Most of it his own doing.
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I think it's a bit strong to be calling him that but I do think there is a logical argument here.

Ange approached our job with the wrong mentality. He should have come in and had a healthy dose of humility, knowing that Levy had given him a great career opportunity. He could have approached the role knowing that he was the one that had a load to learn about the PL environment. Unfortunately, he didn't. He acted like some sort of messiah. He preached to everyone and made out he was going to polish our club up and make it good again. We were the broken ones and he was Mr Fixit. That meant that he himself was not open to feedback and he wasn't listening and observing what was happening with his own product. It wasn't working and he's unfortunately ended up looking like the emperor with no clothes on.

No problem with arrogance in certain roles in life, but this was massively over-rotated arrogance and not enough humility in my opinion.
 
Mikey10 said:
My granny could be nominally in charge of Celtic (she’s been dead for 35 years) and the club would still win the league.
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Not even sure Celtic were champions when ange was appointed.
Can't be arsed looking it up, it may have been the season but I don't think so.

That doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been good enough here.
 
Muttley said:
Ange approached our job with the wrong mentality. He should have come in and had a healthy dose of humility, knowing that Levy had given him a great career opportunity. He could have approached the role knowing that he was the one that had a load to learn about the PL environment. Unfortunately, he didn't. He acted like some sort of messiah. He preached to everyone and made out he was going to polish our club up and make it good again. We were the broken ones and he was Mr Fixit. That meant that he himself was not open to feedback and he wasn't listening and observing what was happening with his own product. It wasn't working and he's unfortunately ended up looking like the emperor with no clothes on.

No problem with arrogance in certain roles in life, but this was massively over-rotated arrogance and not enough humility in my opinion.
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He did leaven the messianic message with some self-deprecation, I think. I am not sure the "humility approach" would have worked for someone who was the umpteenth manager tasked with changing the culture of the club.
Donkeys' years ago when there was a senior management regime change at the company for which I worked, my department got a new director who was much taken with Japanese management techniques (many of which were instilled by US and UK consultants post-war) - a focus on quality, employee empowerment & engagement, endless bloody tracking of whether we were hitting our quality targets, and all that stuff. Because we were typical Brits, we initially responded with the usual "yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever" and took the tinkle out of him behind his back.
He was not deterred by this and just kept banging on and on and on and on about his management beliefs, and blow me, after a while we found ourselves spouting management slogans such as "what gets measured, gets accomplished", "do it right first time", "we criticise ideas, not people" and "I didn't get where I am today without knowing a quality circle when I see one".
That last one might be lost on a lot of you and is a joke for the Reggie Perrin fans.
In short, he achieved buy-in through being an obsessive taco, and to give the guy credit, quality did improve massively.
Now, possibly the key phrase here is "what gets measured, gets accomplished" because in football, it is a lot easier than in most businesses to measure whether a philosophy is working or not. Many of the metrics suggest the Ange philosophy is working but the most important one - points per game - indicates it is not, which makes it a lot harder to sustain buy-in.
There's a character in the poker-based film The Cincinnati Kid who plays to a system that proves ultimately unsuccessful, and he says something to the effect of, "the bet was correct, it was the cards that were wrong", which I think is where we are at with Ange now.
Most fans have decided he is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
We're all hoping that one of the future managerial appointments will prove to be the messiah but we're probably going to be forever disappointed. Right now, I guess most of us would settle for someone who is simply better than Ange. The transfer window is closed, maybe we could get 'Arry in for the rest of the season to tell the boys to "fakhin' run about a bit". Or rent the job out on a weekly basis to billionaires who have always wanted to coach a Premiership team.
In summary, I think that to have the best chance of achieving his aims, Ange had to go all "my way or the highway", and given his success in other (way less challenging) leagues, it was a reasonable posture to adopt. Having gone all in on drawing to an inside straight and failing, he now seems to have little option but to try his luck elsewhere.
On the plus side, Aston Villa have shown that misguidingly putting your faith in a manager who's had success with one of the Glasgow clubs need not be terminal.
 
Muttley said:
I think it's a bit strong to be calling him that but I do think there is a logical argument here.

Ange approached our job with the wrong mentality. He should have come in and had a healthy dose of humility, knowing that Levy had given him a great career opportunity. He could have approached the role knowing that he was the one that had a load to learn about the PL environment. Unfortunately, he didn't. He acted like some sort of messiah. He preached to everyone and made out he was going to polish our club up and make it good again. We were the broken ones and he was Mr Fixit. That meant that he himself was not open to feedback and he wasn't listening and observing what was happening with his own product. It wasn't working and he's unfortunately ended up looking like the emperor with no clothes on.

No problem with arrogance in certain roles in life, but this was massively over-rotated arrogance and not enough humility in my opinion.
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Captain Hindsight here but the fast start probably didn't help him in that respect. That first 2-3 months, we all thought he walked on water so no doubt he thought he had unlocked the secrets to the sport. There was always a sense of "I know best" about Ange but if he'd struggled early on and recovered, that may have changed his mindset a bit or instilled a bit of humility.
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Oh I didn't realise, I've not noticed people posting that. We all have an opinion on the issue but to continue posting the same points regularly seems pointless and boring, all for a bit of originality or different views but the same 6/7 failings are continually posted.
Click to expand...
It does beg the question of why do you post on a fans' forum and moreover visit the same thread? :). We all post for different reasons. Would be a boring place if we didn't.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Its 6 weeks or so of being in and around players and sussing them out. Working out who you think you can get the best out of and knowing by the start of the summer who needs to go. I think it would be an invaluable 6 weeks.
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I'm glad you said it, and it baffles me others can't. The remaining six weeks of this season would be crucial for a new manager, and waiting until the summer to recruit a new manager would be daft
 
veryoldspur said:
I'm glad you said it, and it baffles me others can't. The remaining six weeks of this season would be crucial for a new manager, and waiting until the summer to recruit a new manager would be daft
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If we got someone, I will let others debate, but the benefit of time is money can't buy
 
Roland Beurre said:
He did leaven the messianic message with some self-deprecation, I think. I am not sure the "humility approach" would have worked for someone who was the umpteenth manager tasked with changing the culture of the club.
Donkeys' years ago when there was a senior management regime change at the company for which I worked, my department got a new director who was much taken with Japanese management techniques (many of which were instilled by US and UK consultants post-war) - a focus on quality, employee empowerment & engagement, endless bloody tracking of whether we were hitting our quality targets, and all that stuff. Because we were typical Brits, we initially responded with the usual "yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever" and took the tinkle out of him behind his back.
He was not deterred by this and just kept banging on and on and on and on about his management beliefs, and blow me, after a while we found ourselves spouting management slogans such as "what gets measured, gets accomplished", "do it right first time", "we criticise ideas, not people" and "I didn't get where I am today without knowing a quality circle when I see one".
That last one might be lost on a lot of you and is a joke for the Reggie Perrin fans.
In short, he achieved buy-in through being an obsessive taco, and to give the guy credit, quality did improve massively.
Now, possibly the key phrase here is "what gets measured, gets accomplished" because in football, it is a lot easier than in most businesses to measure whether a philosophy is working or not. Many of the metrics suggest the Ange philosophy is working but the most important one - points per game - indicates it is not, which makes it a lot harder to sustain buy-in.
There's a character in the poker-based film The Cincinnati Kid who plays to a system that proves ultimately unsuccessful, and he says something to the effect of, "the bet was correct, it was the cards that were wrong", which I think is where we are at with Ange now.
Most fans have decided he is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
We're all hoping that one of the future managerial appointments will prove to be the messiah but we're probably going to be forever disappointed. Right now, I guess most of us would settle for someone who is simply better than Ange. The transfer window is closed, maybe we could get 'Arry in for the rest of the season to tell the boys to "fakhin' run about a bit". Or rent the job out on a weekly basis to billionaires who have always wanted to coach a Premiership team.
In summary, I think that to have the best chance of achieving his aims, Ange had to go all "my way or the highway", and given his success in other (way less challenging) leagues, it was a reasonable posture to adopt. Having gone all in on drawing to an inside straight and failing, he now seems to have little option but to try his luck elsewhere.
On the plus side, Aston Villa have shown that misguidingly putting your faith in a manager who's had success with one of the Glasgow clubs need not be terminal.
Click to expand...

Great post. Wasn't sure whether you were talking about Kaizen above or not. I remember that well. Was that eighties/nineties?

I don't agree with the last bit though. In my opinion, good managers have a great system. However, great managers work at all times with what resources they have and work towards their great system. They get their eventually and it takes as long as it takes. You didn't see Pep walk into City and demand his go-to system from day 1. He patiently put a plan together to get there and then plotted a path. Ange put square pegs in round holes and forced his system on everyone. Retrospectively, he may have had no choice due to his own shortcomings as a coach, if Everton was anything to go on.

That being said, it's too late now. He needs to be uncompromising until the end of the season. He needs to go all out on his Plan A and that might actually work in a cup competition format like EL. Then we can bring in a better coach for next season.
 
Can Levy be in charge for 6 games? Reckon the players would benefit from having to impress the man who signs off on their salaries!
 
Saw someone make the point about the players relationship with Ange, when was the last player to renew their contract under him?

I think when he leaves we will hear how they didn't like his processes.
 
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