Ange in or out?

[Kompakted]

He moved him arm towards the ball, that is a deliberate act.
If that is open to interpretation then so is joelintons arm being in a natural position. What is a natural position of an arm for a moving player, because we all move differently.
All I am asking for is consistency, a marker was laid down on how the rules I regards of hand ball were going to be applied, they choose to ignore that marker later in the game.

So arm moving towards ball/unnatural position/making player bigger is the prerequisite for a free-kick for handball (hence why joelintons wasn't)

Hand ball isn't an automatic caution. The referee has to deem the handball as "unsporting behaviour" which FA guidance for handball is that it is a deliberate act for the purpose of interfering or stopping a "promising attack". So it's open to a ref to interpret that is all I'm saying. To say Burn should have been an auto-booking based on the letter isn't correct. There's a good case for it and I'm sure Saudi Sportswashing Machine will feel they got away with one there but equally if I was a spurs fan I'd probably be f***ed off rightly or wrongly if our player was sent off for the same thing which just shows you that referees can't really win most of the time.

 

[Mikey10]

Ange will 100% still be here at the end of the season.

And mainly because the players are still giving everything, and as such, are behind him.

Whether his style/plan works eventually is still up for debate, but more importantly still to be revealed. Ange is comfortable with that, if it loses him his job, he will accept he failed.

If it works, it will be glorious. We may as well find out.

About where I am. I still hope he’ll adjust his approach, and I think he did a bit on Saturday, the second time he’s done it in the last two or three weeks.

I’m still not at all sure that his style of play/philosophy can work without a squad at the level of Emirates Marketing Project, so I’m doubtful he’ll be here beyond the summer. But the players do still seem to believe and that obviously counts for a lot.

Ange has made life much more difficult for himself than it needed to be imo, but for me, the real issues continue to lie way above the manager.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeah and I think that's the rub with the Postecoglu system. It's always on the edge of brilliance or disaster. Proper "roll the dice" football. Think that's why we always seem either lose in head-in-hands fashion or batter someone. If we are properly on it first half as you say we break through that press and possibly score again, then they're demoralised and stop committing to the press so high and it becomes an easier game.

But get it wrong in those situations and...well the result is what we got.

My question is whether Ange can get it to a middle ground which is more sustainable in terms of consistent results, without losing the best parts of what the system can do when it is functioning well. That's the fundamental question.

I think this is a pretty fair assessment for sure. I am someone who pined for audere est facere so am prepared to fall on my sword with what he's doing. I further agree that your last question is the fundamental question, and that we will only get that honestly when he has a proper deck of cards to play with.

 

[thfcsteff]

I can't remember ever having a running style where my hand goes that far behind my back either. So if Joelinton was doing the modern footballer thing and keeping his hand behind his back so as not to give away a handball, how did he manage to suddenly handball it?

I think the term don't kid a kidder comes to mind here. Of course he was trying to handball it. It was a dark art we saw there.

I can forgive the referee for not seeing that, because most of them have no clue about the spirit of the game anyway. It seems they also struggle with the laws of the game based on the lack of issuance of yellows over multiple years.

One could be forgiven for thinking that keeping 22 players on the pitch is more important than applying the laws of the game.

We are, as you've doubtless heard by now, in total agreement on this!

 

[DeanoAustin]

The tribal thing didn't occur to me.

I don't think Liverpool and Arsenal were tribal when they made their public statements of no confidence through their official websites. I think they were representing a football community that needed a couple of the big voices to help get things straightened out. In fact, I though we saw some humility from PGMOL and internal reviews happened to correct things. Now we're back to the complacency with PGMOL again, where instead of holding their hands up, they want the FA to issue bans and fines and protect them.

I was very serious when I said our football club should have made a public statement of no confidence at the weekend. PGMOL need one of the big players in this league to rattle their cage again. The complacency and arrogance is back from an organisation that has a notoriously bad culture, as played out in the public eye for years.

Also worth considering that referees don't become multi-millionaires unless they earn notoriety.

Arsenal and Liverpool were very much being tribal. You think they’d have released those statements if the errors they suffered happened to anyone else or if they got the benefit of them? They were completely self serving.

You could argue the officials got some calls wrong on Saturday. They were subjective calls but I can see the arguments even if I don’t necessarily agree. However, they are people, they will make mistakes. As another poster says above, the 2-3 passes before Bergvall gets the ball were poor decisions and bad passes from our players. People make mistakes.

The other point is around consistency…never gonna happen. As long as there is an element of subjectivity around the laws, and there has to be that, you will end up with inconsistency. It’s always been the case in the game.

 

[Kompakted]

I think this is a pretty fair assessment for sure. I am someone who pined for audere est facere so am prepared to fall on my sword with what he's doing. I further agree that your last question is the fundamental question, and that we will only get that honestly when he has a proper deck of cards to play with.

Well if he is given another summer that will be the true test: you could argue that we were a bit light in some areas. I think at left-back and centre back we needed to have a better understudy for Udogie and I think with the style of play we could do with 4 fully natural CBs with Davies filling as a utility across CB and LB.

As the season has gone on its become clear that we can't rely on Richarlison fitness wise, we can't rely on Son anymore and we need someone that is as fast but a better, more assertive dribbler than Johnson. Johnson for me could be a great impact sub across the front 3 and a starter in certain games. Sonny for me also needs to be an impact sub.

Bissouma and Bentancur are not ideal for his system but I'm not sure I'd buy in CM given I think Bergvall and Gray are going to be top drawer IMO. Sarr is a decent squad option.

I do think Ange needs to use the squad more proactively though. Spence was criminally underused early in the season and Udogie might not be injured and/or Porro might be fresher had he done that. Austin's performance also raises the Q as to why he hasn't been utilised more as back up. It was only one game but on that he s far more comfortable playing that sweeper keeper role behind a high line than Forster looks and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were very aggressive in their pressing and pressure on him at set pieces so it was a good test of that characteristic. Must have been fantastic for the CBs to have a keeper coming off his line to take charge of situations proactively.

 

[glasgowspur]

Arsenal and Liverpool were very much being tribal. You think they’d have released those statements if the errors they suffered happened to anyone else or if they got the benefit of them? They were completely self serving.

You could argue the officials got some calls wrong on Saturday. They were subjective calls but I can see the arguments even if I don’t necessarily agree. However, they are people, they will make mistakes. As another poster says above, the 2-3 passes before Bergvall gets the ball were poor decisions and bad passes from our players. People make mistakes.

The other point is around consistency…never gonna happen. As long as there is an element of subjectivity around the laws, and there has to be that, you will end up with inconsistency. It’s always been the case in the game.

I'm not sure I agree with this bad play for the equaliser, yes the pass to Bergvall was slightly over hit, but if he gets that ball and gets it out to Porro we are scampering down that side with Saudi Sportswashing Machine exposed because we have played through the press.

Remember I think it was Liverpool fourth goal, the header dragu missed, that was the same.
We pressed taa, their weakest defender into hoofing it, we win that ball back and we are in on taa with spence sitting on him and us breaking.

Obviously I can't be sure but it looks to like we laid traps, they didn't come off, and Saturday only didn't come off because of a freak occurrence, but the I'm not easily buying this bad play stuff.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well if he is given another summer that will be the true test: you could argue that we were a bit light in some areas. I think at left-back and centre back we needed to have a better understudy for Udogie and I think with the style of play we could do with 4 fully natural CBs with Davies filling as a utility across CB and LB.

As the season has gone on its become clear that we can't rely on Richarlison fitness wise, we can't rely on Son anymore and we need someone that is as fast but a better, more assertive dribbler than Johnson. Johnson for me could be a great impact sub across the front 3 and a starter in certain games. Sonny for me also needs to be an impact sub.

Bissouma and Bentancur are not ideal for his system but I'm not sure I'd buy in CM given I think Bergvall and Gray are going to be top drawer IMO. Sarr is a decent squad option.

I do think Ange needs to use the squad more proactively though. Spence was criminally underused early in the season and Udogie might not be injured and/or Porro might be fresher had he done that. Austin's performance also raises the Q as to why he hasn't been utilised more as back up. It was only one game but on that he s far more comfortable playing that sweeper keeper role behind a high line than Forster looks and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were very aggressive in their pressing and pressure on him at set pieces so it was a good test of that characteristic. Must have been fantastic for the CBs to have a keeper coming off his line to take charge of situations proactively.

Some great points.
I think the Spence thing is certainly a question to ask; on the face of things it looks like he could've used him a lot sooner. Austin? I had the same thought but a friend was positing that Forster is the senior keeper signed as back-up and that had we gone straight to Austin and he'd had a few mares, we'd have buggered him and Forster; it made sense to me. Have to say I think Spence has been his only big rotational questionmark, but nonetheless one worth noting.

 

[Kompakted]

Some great points.
I think the Spence thing is certainly a question to ask; on the face of things it looks like he could've used him a lot sooner. Austin? I had the same thought but a friend was positing that Forster is the senior keeper signed as back-up and that had we gone straight to Austin and he'd had a few mares, we'd have buggered him and Forster; it made sense to me. Have to say I think Spence has been his only big rotational questionmark, but nonetheless one worth noting.

I agree that he hasn't really been able to rotate much at all as he hasn't often had a fit squad. Whether that's unlucky or self inflicted is another open question.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I'm not sure I agree with this bad play for the equaliser, yes the pass to Bergvall was slightly over hit, but if he gets that ball and gets it out to Porro we are scampering down that side with Saudi Sportswashing Machine exposed because we have played through the press.

Remember I think it was Liverpool fourth goal, the header dragu missed, that was the same.
We pressed taa, their weakest defender into hoofing it, we win that ball back and we are in on taa with spence sitting on him and us breaking.

Obviously I can't be sure but it looks to like we laid traps, they didn't come off, and Saturday only didn't come off because of a freak occurrence, but the I'm not easily buying this bad play stuff.

I think on that goal, Austin made the first bad decision. He’s given it to Gray who is facing him square on so clearly doesn’t know what’s going on behind him. He’s then played it into Sarr who is under pressure and over hits the ball to Bergvall. Gray should have given it to Spence who was in more space.

I’m being very critical here but fine margins decide games. Austin should have taken a bit more time or given it to Dragusin who is facing the play. Gray has given it to a man under pressure and that man has overhit the ball. They are all little mistakes.

 

[Muttley]

Arsenal and Liverpool were very much being tribal. You think they’d have released those statements if the errors they suffered happened to anyone else or if they got the benefit of them? They were completely self serving.

You could argue the officials got some calls wrong on Saturday. They were subjective calls but I can see the arguments even if I don’t necessarily agree. However, they are people, they will make mistakes. As another poster says above, the 2-3 passes before Bergvall gets the ball were poor decisions and bad passes from our players. People make mistakes.

The other point is around consistency…never gonna happen. As long as there is an element of subjectivity around the laws, and there has to be that, you will end up with inconsistency. It’s always been the case in the game.

I think this will be my last post on this, but would like to make sure I was understood in a couple of areas:

1) Whilst I had an opinion on Joelinton's hand ball and the goal, I didn't make a big thing about it. That one was clearly interpretation and could have gone either way.
2) What I had a beef about was the amount of times Madley ignored the laws of the game, mostly with regards to yellows. This started with the yellow card tackle on Porro, all the way through to the ret not coming back to the scene of the crime and booking Bissouma. Madley gave Saudi Sportswashing Machine a numerical advantage by 2 players for a big chunk of that game.
3) This isn't even about THFC. What we've been discussing is just the context we have of Saturday's game. It aligns under a much bigger problem we have with PGMOL in the English game. Yes, I'm sure Pool and Arsenal were making sure their PGMOL crimes were reported loud and clear, but they also knew that the power play was required by them for the good of the game.
4) My last point is that there will always be a mismatch with the fans, if VAR doesn't start reviewing incidences with respect to the laws of the game rather than checking whether their mate on the same team made a clear and obvious error. We just want to know the right decision based on the laws.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.......lol, until next time....and they will keep coming.

 

[monkeybarry]

i played in the states for a couple of years and they did that then, it was utter madness and they stopped it after so many complaints.

To be fair, the Americans getting wrong isn't necessarily a argument against!

On a serious note, what were the issues?
I play netball and the two umpires works well - but I think the way the ball moves around the pitch wouldn't work in football.
But also, football is a sport that is just full of bickering that can't handle nuance or error.
Rugby and Netball have discipline. That said, there are more opportunities in both games to even out an officiating error/misjudgement.
Football is quite unique in how low scoring it is.

 

[parklane1]

To be fair, the Americans getting wrong isn't necessarily a argument against!

On a serious note, what were the issues?
I play netball and the two umpires works well - but I think the way the ball moves around the pitch wouldn't work in football.
But also, football is a sport that is just full of bickering that can't handle nuance or error.
Rugby and Netball have discipline. That said, there are more opportunities in both games to even out an officiating error/misjudgement.
Football is quite unique in how low scoring it is.

Never played netball but so can not comment on that accept to say that netball is played at a faster rate and on a smaller playing area. , however a ref in each half in a football game was a disaster with arguments about which ref was the one who half the ball was in on occasions.

 

[monkeybarry]

Never played netball but so can not comment on that accept to say that netball is played at a faster rate and on a smaller playing area. , however a ref in each half in a football game was a disaster with arguments about which ref was the one who half the ball was in on occasions.

I suspected that would be the case.
Netball umpires are excellent at keeping up with the play - you can do that from a sideline, but not on the field. The ball also travels a shorter distance, so there is rarely a long ball that would confuse the officials.

But the point highlighted highlights footballs probably (the bickering). In netball, the umpires take ownership. There is no centre line, so it's a judgment call (it's teamwork and common sense). But no one moans, they just respect the role of the official and get the fudge on with it. (The zero tolerance for back chat does help with that. You'll get a warning to behave if you're lucky)

 

[Mikey10]

I’m now always a fan of this podcast, but really good discussion from 12 minutes in on this, until around 28 minutes, on why Ange splits opinions in the fanbase. Pretty balanced and interesting.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m now always a fan of this podcast, but really good discussion from 12 minutes in on this, until around 28 minutes, on why Ange splits opinions in the fanbase. Pretty balanced and interesting.

It's an interesting discussion but it isn't a cult.
It's based in the reality that his current work cannot be defined accurately due to the situations we find ourselves in re:injuries and squad building.
I agree with their project angle 100%.

 

[Mikey10]

It's an interesting discussion but it isn't a cult.
It's based in the reality that his current work cannot be defined accurately due to the situations we find ourselves in re:injuries and squad building.
I agree with their project angle 100%.

I didn’t think they were really saying it’s a cult. One was (think his name was Alex?) saying there were elements of it - and I did agree with some, but not all, of the points he made; but the counter version was put (that proper judgement perhaps can’t be made yet for a number of reasons).

The idea of there being a heavy buy-in from some due to Ange arguably being the nearest thing we’ve had since Poch was interesting.

Anyhow, thought it was a good discussion, and more thoughtful than some of their pods.

 

[thfcsteff]

I didn’t think they were really saying it’s a cult. One was (think his name was Alex?) saying there were elements of it - and I did agree with some, but not all, of the points he made; but the counter version was put (that proper judgement can’t be made yet for a number of reasons).

The idea of there being a heavy buy-in from some due to him being the nearest thing we’ve had since Poch was interesting.

Anyhow, thought it was a good discussion, and more thoughtful than some of their pods.

It certainly seemed like a decent chat yes. I don't listen to them at all usually. I think the Poch thing is close to the mark, albeit (and I speak for myself) I am all audere est facere, so when managers adopt that mentality I am in!

 

[Baleforce]

I’m now always a fan of this podcast, but really good discussion from 12 minutes in on this, until around 28 minutes, on why Ange splits opinions in the fanbase. Pretty balanced and interesting.

I agree, it is culty, a lot of wish projection that his CV so far doesn't back up.

No manager has ever had this level of support, for so long, with such poor performance on the pitch.

Never listened to that podcast before, more balanced and reasonable than I was expecting based on what I've heard from others.