Ange departs

[ricky2tricky4city]

Good job of highlighting what was said over time and how things changed. What gets me is that so many people bought in to the talk and vibes yet over time all that talk has ultimately been shown to be empty (as pointed out in the article) - so what's left once that's taken away?

I think simplistically, whatever you say and however you portray yourself as a manager ultimately lives or dies by the results.

The great takeaway for Ange though, is one legendary sound bite did come true, in spectacular fashion.

 

[marxoulis]

You can decide that but it's a bad decision on your part as the manager to bin off the league and finish in the lowest possible position without getting relegated. It will likely end in the same result as Ange ie. getting the sack.

The league campaign is the ultimate decider of quality and progress. Cups are a bonus. If you win a cup whilst having a great season that's amazing. If you do so while having a ok season it might even turn that into a great year. Do it while having a poor season it's just a bit meh and do it whilst being godawful and sadly that's not going to change the narrative that frankly you failed in the meat and potatoes of any football team. The league campaign.

Cups rely on the draw and game to game form. It's not a sustainable way to evaluate a team's relevant quality, only the league does that and this past season was a disaster in that respect and no amount of injuries obscures this fact, out form was very concerning before any injury concerns besides injuries happen they are part and parcel of the game Ange said this himself before he started using it as an excuse. If you haven't built a squad to cope with injuries or to adjust your system to cope thats a failing on your part as a manager or coach. But again I want to reiterate we were poor way before any I jury concerns so I'm not really buying that excuse.

Just curious.
Would you trade the EL cup with 4th place in the league?

 

[Bishop]

Just curious.
Would you trade the EL cup with 4th place in the league?

Given our lack of trophies I'd take the EL over 4th. In my ideal scenario we do well both in the cups and the league. I wouldn't take multiple ELs and 17th every season. The league for me is the biggest test and the proving ground of how good you are as a side. I'm not really even interested in 4th per se. I want game to game excellence and getting that means you're doing well in the league. In the end I want to win the league over everything else.

I'm so old school I wouldn't even want to win the CL without first winning the PL. You can't be the best team in Europe if you're not even the best team in your own league.

 

[billyiddo]

Given our lack of trophies I'd take the EL over 4th. In my ideal scenario we do well both in the cups and the league. I wouldn't take multiple ELs and 17th every season. The league for me is the biggest test and the proving ground of how good you are as a side. I'm not really even interested in 4th per se. I want game to game excellence and getting that means you're doing well in the league. In the end I want to win the league over everything else.

I'm so old school I wouldn't even want to win the CL without first winning the PL. You can't be the best team in Europe if you're not even the best team in your own league.

Cup competitions don't tell you who the best team is otherwise that makes the winner of the FA Cup the best team in England - so I don't agree with your logic on winning the CL there. That's what makes cup competitions so great - you can turn up for a run of games and/or get a rub of the green and come out on top despite not being good or consistent enough to win the league. I think the CL having so many teams from from the strongest leagues in it makes it a tougher competition to win than if it were just champions.

 

[afsoc4life]

I think 'multitude of reasons' is doing a lot of work there to be honest. We haven't kicked on because we didn't back Poch. Or Conte. Poch and Klopp started at the same time. Liverpool kicked on with an aggressive move for a top goalkeeper and centre back and have won league titles. Poch was held back from doing the same.

I don't want cups rather than the league. I want to win the actual league. And some cups. I never wanted to 'do it the easy way' like Chelsea or City did. But I feel like we've done our hard yards. We've built the infrastructure, we now just need the team. I just don't believe another 5 year plan is actually going to get us to win the league, especially when we keep sacking managers / not backing them.

There was a big difference in ability between Klopp and Poch. Klopp had led Dortmund to league and continental titles or finals before joining Pool. Poch had done neither.

 

[Bishop]

Cup competitions don't tell you who the best team is otherwise that makes the winner of the FA Cup the best team in England - so I don't agree with your logic on winning the CL there. That's what makes cup competitions so great - you can turn up for a run of games and/or get a rub of the green and come out on top despite not being good or consistent enough to win the league. I think the CL having so many teams from from the strongest leagues in it makes it a tougher competition to win than if it were just champions.

I preferred the prestige of when it was just league champions and the previous season's winners. The competition is certainly more difficult now with the breadth of competition but it's moved away from what it once was for me; the pinnacle of European football pitting Champion versus Champion. It was harder to qualify for as only the very elite actually managed to do so, so again just for me the weight of the triumph meant more.

Edit: I would say though that if you win the CL after either winning your league the previous year or even better winning it the same season I do think you have a legitimate claim to call yourself the best team in Europe, especially if you have shown any sort of dominance in the CL itself.

 

[Bishop]

There was a big difference in ability between Klopp and Poch. Klopp had led Dortmund to league and continental titles or finals before joining Pool. Poch had done neither.

Klopp is simply the better coach and manager.

 

[billyiddo]

There was a big difference in ability between Klopp and Poch. Klopp had led Dortmund to league and continental titles or finals before joining Pool. Poch had done neither.

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both at their respective clubs.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both.

To be fair he did manage to come 2nd in a 1 horse league whilst riding the horse…

 

[Lost Mango]

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both at their respective clubs.

Dortmund weren't really the second club when he took over though. One title and 2 third place finishes (and no German Cups) in the two decades before he took over. Leverkusen, Bremen, Schalke and Wolfsburg all more successful than Dortmund prior to Klopp.

 

[billyiddo]

Dortmund weren't really the second club when he took over though. One title and 2 third place finishes (and no German Cups) in the two decades before he took over. Leverkusen, Bremen, Schalke and Wolfsburg all more successful than Dortmund prior to Klopp.

German football is essentially Bayern and then a huge gap to the chasing pack who are all much of a muchness - the challenge is to overcome Bayern it's not like the PL in that regard where we have three or four Bayerns

 

[Bishop]

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both at their respective clubs.

Dortmund were not the 2nd club before Klopp took over, he made them that. They were in the top 4 or 5 clubs yes but there was no clear 2nd and for a German at the time Dortmund definitely were not the next biggest in terms of stature.

 

[Bishop]

German football is essentially Bayern and then a huge gap to the chasing pack who are all much of a muchness - the challenge is to overcome Bayern it's not like the PL in that regard where we have three or four Bayerns

Not really true at the time Klopp took over. People have short memories and forget that teams like Bremen or Wolfsburg were winning the league at the time and Bayern's supreme dominance only took hold post 2011. Before then it was actually more like the PL in that any one of 4 or 5 teams depending on the season could challenge or win it (and they did).

Klopp actually started the dominant team thing (2x titles in a row and massive points differential ) and Bayern had to respond and they did.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

There was a big difference in ability between Klopp and Poch. Klopp had led Dortmund to league and continental titles or finals before joining Pool. Poch had done neither.

I don’t agree, but even accepting the premise here, the original point was around the idea that ENIC haven’t had the right manager to back.

Are you contending that if Klopp got 86 points ENIC would have said ‘we have our guy, let’s invest, push on and build a title challenging team for him’ or would the exact same thing have happened?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I don’t agree, but even accepting the premise here, the original point was around the idea that ENIC haven’t had the right manager to back.

Are you contending that if Klopp got 86 points ENIC would have said ‘we have our guy, let’s invest, push on and build a title challenging team for him’ or would the exact same thing have happened?

If Klopp had of got 86 points during the building of a £1bn stadium then exactly the same thing would have happened as it did to Poch and you can include Fergie, Pep, Bill Nick, Alf Ramsey, whoever you want. If the money wasn’t there it wasn’t there!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both at their respective clubs.

I agree
you can’t compare angers because the variables are much greater
It has of be the element of what they have really achieved
We know that clubs tend to perform against their budgets so that’s the benchmark for me

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If Klopp had of got 86 points during the building of a £1bn stadium then exactly the same thing would have happened as it did to Poch and you can include Fergie, Pep, Bill Nick, Alf Ramsey, whoever you want. If the money wasn’t there it wasn’t there!

Ok, that wasn’t really the point I was trying to make...

Let’s take any other time - when we got 4th under Conte. Let’s say Klopp did that. Would ENIC have decided they had their man and pushed on?

How about after the CL final?

The money isn’t there because as owners they won’t invest it. We have the headroom from a PSR perspective.

 

[billyiddo]

Not really true at the time Klopp took over. People have short memories and forget that teams like Bremen or Wolfsburg were winning the league at the time and Bayern's supreme dominance only took hold post 2011. Before then it was actually more like the PL in that any one of 4 or 5 teams depending on the season could challenge or win it (and they did).

Klopp actually started the dominant team thing (2x titles in a row and massive points differential ) and Bayern had to respond and they did.

So the dominant team in Germnany wasn't the force they are now? That lessens the challenge then doesn't it?

 

[Muttley]

Ok, that wasn’t really the point I was trying to make...

Let’s take any other time - when we got 4th under Conte. Let’s say Klopp did that. Would ENIC have decided they had their man and pushed on?

How about after the CL final?

The money isn’t there because as owners they won’t invest it. We have the headroom from a PSR perspective.

PSR and P&L/Balance Sheet are 2 different things though. There are exclusions in PSR that the club absolutely have to include in the annual accounts. From memory, PSR says you can have a £35m loss every year or £105 averaged over 3 years. Who would run their business on that premise?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Ok, that wasn’t really the point I was trying to make...

Let’s take any other time - when we got 4th under Conte. Let’s say Klopp did that. Would ENIC have decided they had their man and pushed on?

How about after the CL final?

The money isn’t there because as owners they won’t invest it. We have the headroom from a PSR perspective.

The summer of the CL final we dropped the best part of 120m for Poch. Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sess, Clarke,

For conte we spent about 240 on 10ish players. Kulu, Bentancur, Richy, Romero, Biss, Udogie, Spence, Perisic, Lenglet, Porro.