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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

On MOTD they made the point that we have a shedload of foreign players to introduce to the Premier League. We didn't buy proven Premiership players, we tried to be canny and buy foreign. Were our expectations of integrating these players far too high? Or was today just down to having 3 centrebacks out injured?

A lot of the goals we have conceded this season are of course down to Lloris and others making mistakes and only having Walker as the obvious first in his respective position available at times. That's not saying a lot of them couldn't have been avoided though, but when you have the likes of Dawson and Naughton up against on song Suarez and Sterling, well, it's not going to be pretty if nothing is working attacking wise.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

A lot of the goals we have conceded this season are of course down to Lloris and others making mistakes and only having Walker as the obvious first in his respective position available at times. That's not saying a lot of them couldn't have been avoided though, but when you have the likes of Dawson and Naughton up against on song Suarez and Sterling, well, it's not going to be pretty if nothing is working attacking wise.

Then you adapt.

There was an article on here a few pages back. AVB played a deep defensive line against Man Utd then against a potent striker and attacking unit we play a defensive high line with Dawson - thats AVB being the architect of his own down fall
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

People want to sack AVB but then hire Lambert????
What with all the spanking HE has overseen??
With the way HE chose not to play experienced players like Bent, Dunne and Ireland?
You honestly think he can manage this squad?

Post that suggestion to AVB; he'd probably resign himself hearing it.

Wow

Mine wasn't a serious suggestion...more an appreciation of the manager he is, combined with a realisation of the fact he is entirely unsuited to our club. Norwich is where I'm from though and I loved the job he did there. It was amazing.

So I don't think he's for us, but interestingly it seems like Villa are attempting a bit of a similar sort of project to ourselves...lots of young players coming in at the same time that need to learn how to play at this level. They took some hammerings last year - 8-0 vs Chelsea then 4-0 vs us in the next game - but there was never any suggestion that it was the wrong man leading the club. They've started on a project that should see them doing well in a few years but they are taking some pain now.

I'm calmed down a bit from the game, and really thinking it was the end for AVB to now hoping he turns it round again. I can take the hammerings, and I feel the same as Gutter Boy to be honest, we can keep sacking managers and keep going round in circles, but if we are trying to move up a level and take that final step, to compete against the clubs with more financial resources than ourselves, then we need to build something long term. We need something that will last. Sackings may work for Chelsea but I don't think they are the answer for us.

People may say it's a different era and the Fergie example is no longer relevant, but I don't see why not. Wenger came along a generation after Fergie and built something himself. I don't see why we can't do something similar. There is an argument to say once we are out of the top 4 it's harder to get back in (not that we are regular CL participants anyway though) and Liverpool are often cited as an example of a club that have fallen and find it hard to get back up. But what they are showing is if you plan a bit long term, they can reap the rewards. They finished 7th last year. There was no 'we need European football as a minimum or you are out', they saw progress was being made and that was that, they backed their man. I say let's back ours. Let's take a long term perspective and build something great.

The fact that there are no other obvious candidates out there suggests this game isn't all about sacking until you find a good manager. Every one we could go for has a question mark against them because they all have some sort of failure attached. AVB does have big question marks himself now too. But I think the potential is there once this squad has settled together to go to places we haven't been for decades.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I find it hard to believe that Naughton started and then was so bad he had to be subbed off for Fryers at half time. How could AVB get it so wrong? Surely AVB must see both of them in training and in matches. I could have told him that Fryers would have been a better bet, even if far from perfect. Townsend would have been better even.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Mine wasn't a serious suggestion...more an appreciation of the manager he is, combined with a realisation of the fact he is entirely unsuited to our club. Norwich is where I'm from though and I loved the job he did there. It was amazing.

So I don't think he's for us, but interestingly it seems like Villa are attempting a bit of a similar sort of project to ourselves...lots of young players coming in at the same time that need to learn how to play at this level. They took some hammerings last year - 8-0 vs Chelsea then 4-0 vs us in the next game - but there was never any suggestion that it was the wrong man leading the club. They've started on a project that should see them doing well in a few years but they are taking some pain now.

I'm calmed down a bit from the game, and really thinking it was the end for AVB to now hoping he turns it round again. I can take the hammerings, and I feel the same as Gutter Boy to be honest, we can keep sacking managers and keep going round in circles, but if we are trying to move up a level and take that final step, to compete against the clubs with more financial resources than ourselves, then we need to build something long term. We need something that will last. Sackings may work for Chelsea but I don't think they are the answer for us.

People may say it's a different era and the Fergie example is no longer relevant, but I don't see why not. Wenger came along a generation after Fergie and built something himself. I don't see why we can't do something similar. There is an argument to say once we are out of the top 4 it's harder to get back in (not that we are regular CL participants anyway though) and Liverpool are often cited as an example of a club that have fallen and find it hard to get back up. But what they are showing is if you plan a bit long term, they can reap the rewards. They finished 7th last year. There was no 'we need European football as a minimum or you are out', they saw progress was being made and that was that, they backed their man. I say let's back ours. Let's take a long term perspective and build something great.

The fact that there are no other obvious candidates out there suggests this game isn't all about sacking until you find a good manager. Every one we could go for has a question mark against them because they all have some sort of failure attached. AVB does have big question marks himself now too. But I think the potential is there once this squad has settled together to go to places we haven't been for decades.

The issue is the extent of the losses.

Same results against West Ham, City, Pool, make the results 2-0, 3-0, 3-0, AVB would be ok, 3-0, 6-0, 5-0 = not acceptable.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Wouldn't call Paulinho a defensively solid midfielder. The guy strikes me as a second striker without the goals. He isn't very creative but obviously has some skills, just can't hit the target at the moment. We should've promised Caulker games and left out one of Kaboul or Dawson. In hindisight letting the healthy young player go and keeping the injured experienced pro has backfired as Kaboul looks to be knackered. Sad really considering the season before he was layed off he made many peoples team of the year alongside Kompany.

The high line is becoming his signature joke though. It hasn't worked for two different teams over three seasons so it has to go. For all Liverpools good football, they only took the lead from a long ball over the top that sent our defense into disarray.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Mine wasn't a serious suggestion...more an appreciation of the manager he is, combined with a realisation of the fact he is entirely unsuited to our club. Norwich is where I'm from though and I loved the job he did there. It was amazing.

So I don't think he's for us, but interestingly it seems like Villa are attempting a bit of a similar sort of project to ourselves...lots of young players coming in at the same time that need to learn how to play at this level. They took some hammerings last year - 8-0 vs Chelsea then 4-0 vs us in the next game - but there was never any suggestion that it was the wrong man leading the club. They've started on a project that should see them doing well in a few years but they are taking some pain now.

I'm calmed down a bit from the game, and really thinking it was the end for AVB to now hoping he turns it round again. I can take the hammerings, and I feel the same as Gutter Boy to be honest, we can keep sacking managers and keep going round in circles, but if we are trying to move up a level and take that final step, to compete against the clubs with more financial resources than ourselves, then we need to build something long term. We need something that will last. Sackings may work for Chelsea but I don't think they are the answer for us.

People may say it's a different era and the Fergie example is no longer relevant, but I don't see why not. Wenger came along a generation after Fergie and built something himself. I don't see why we can't do something similar. There is an argument to say once we are out of the top 4 it's harder to get back in (not that we are regular CL participants anyway though) and Liverpool are often cited as an example of a club that have fallen and find it hard to get back up. But what they are showing is if you plan a bit long term, they can reap the rewards. They finished 7th last year. There was no 'we need European football as a minimum or you are out', they saw progress was being made and that was that, they backed their man. I say let's back ours. Let's take a long term perspective and build something great.

The fact that there are no other obvious candidates out there suggests this game isn't all about sacking until you find a good manager. Every one we could go for has a question mark against them because they all have some sort of failure attached. AVB does have big question marks himself now too. But I think the potential is there once this squad has settled together to go to places we haven't been for decades.

Don't agree with your point of view but can see the sense in it.

But for the love of GHod, can we stop using the word project.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Didn't say we were going forward, but there's no major decline happening. We're about the same in most aspects. Whether that's good enough is another question, how much progress should we be expecting?

Not getting thumped three times before Xmas would be nice. Having a plus goal difference, scoring more goals, creating more chances, looking more fluid in attack. Even one of our new signings looking like a shrewd piece of business and good value for money. An improvement in just one of those areas would be welcomed.

When we made those signings, some of our own fans were talking us up as title contenders, now that we're struggling people have changed their tune and we ahokld write the season off? Would Liverpool write a season off after spending £100m?

Everton have a new manager and almost as many new players and they haw already implemented a style of play that sees them score goals and look threatening, even away against the league leaders, and their manager has done this in less than half the time AVB has had.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

On MOTD they made the point that we have a shedload of foreign players to introduce to the Premier League. We didn't buy proven Premiership players, we tried to be canny and buy foreign. Were our expectations of integrating these players far too high? Or was today just down to having 3 centrebacks out injured?

I think today was a lot about the injuries and also generally I think expectations were set too high, expecting top 4 with the amount of foreigners coming into the club. It had never been done before, in the way we went about it this summer. The board did great in getting them - people say 'why did they buy foreigners if they needed time to settle' and it's because long term, we've got some serious value there - but they should align realistic expectations to them. It may mean a season finishing 6/7th. Big whoop. We'll be fine.

Emirates Marketing Project finished 5th in their first season of oil money. Chelsea finished second in their first Roman year with foreigners like Crespo and Mutu not performing up to standard. We are looking to make a jump after selling our best player...from what it looks like another 5th place would have been considered failure. It's pretty lofty expectations and I don't think the answer is always to set targets so high and then being ruthless when you don't achieve them.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

The issue is the extent of the losses.

Same results against West Ham, City, Pool, make the results 2-0, 3-0, 3-0, AVB would be ok, 3-0, 6-0, 5-0 = not acceptable.

Lambert hasn't had all the new players AVB has. Nor has AVB got the financial constraints that Lambert has to deal with. Villa fans recognise that they are on a long road but we have only just found out that the road we are on is very bumpy. We have gone from being a serious threat to a laughing stock since the start of the season. I blame the media for increasing the fans belief that it would all be plain sailing, but there is a lot going wrong right now.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

The issue is the extent of the losses.

Same results against West Ham, City, Pool, make the results 2-0, 3-0, 3-0, AVB would be ok, 3-0, 6-0, 5-0 = not acceptable.

I agree. But I think because of the nature of what we are trying to build, it's playing with control and it's playing to a system. When it's not clicking it looks really bad but when it clicks we will reap the rewards.

If we were sending the players out there with less instruction and less freedom we may win more games short term and we may have defeats that aren't as bad, but it's all part of a process to get somewhere we want to be.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

So should we give AVB the rest of the season or get rid now?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

AVB is like the ultimate Tottenham manager compilation, taking key attributes from many of the recent managers we've had and merging them into one.

Graham's attacking flair and style
The transfer market nous of Francis
The media handling skills of Gross
Pleat's world class substitutions and tactical decisions
Ramos' guarantee of ensuring he always got the basics right
We haven't seen him demonstrate Hoddle's man management skills yet, but he certainly showed he has them in his locker at Chelsea.


Seriously. He's gotta go right now.Today was as bad as any of the shockers I witnessed under Gross, Graham, Pleat, Francis etc. He regularly gets basic basic tactical decisions wrong, the football is diabolical to watch, and quite frankly, I don't see any evidence to suggest that this guy is up to the task. Rodgers took over at Liverpool at the same time AVB took over here, we were ahead of them then and they've now overtaken us and are playing great football.

Give him time? No, time is the one thing we should definitely not be giving him any more of. After spending most of my life watching mediocre footballers represent my club, I finally got to see a great Tottenham side emerging, with the likes of Luka Modric, Gareth Bale, Rafael Van Der Vaart, Niko Kranjcar and Tom Huddlestone playing some gorgeous football. AVB inherited that squad, and in the time we have given him he has quickly gone about tearing it apart and re-investing the money on inferior players, promoting an awful style of football and getting tactically outclassed on a regular basis. This has to be stopped now. It's competitive near the top of the table these days, with two oil rich clubs, a rejuvinated Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton, with even clubs like Southampton having decent young squads and playing good football. I grew up supporting Tottenham as a dog**** mid-table club and it was horrible. If we give Andre Villas-Boas more time, that is exactly what he is going to turn us back into. Simple as.

If I were Levy I'd make sure he was gone before tomorrows training session.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I agree. But I think because of the nature of what we are trying to build, it's playing with control and it's playing to a system. When it's not clicking it looks really bad but when it clicks we will reap the rewards.

If we were sending the players out there with less instruction and less freedom we may win more games short term and we may have defeats that aren't as bad, but it's all part of a process to get somewhere we want to be.

But we aren't playing with control right now. In fact these last few games the control aspect seems to have disappeared. As for sending them with instructions, surely you have seen the looks on the players faces. The instructions are either too complex or wrong, because we just look so disjointed. There is a real lack of movement all over the pitch. Im not in the anti AVB camp or anything like that but what I see is a group of players all doing their own thing and nothing resembling a unit. Some players press whilst others don't, some players move to receive the pass but others stay static, the players don't seem to know their jobs. It's like they are thinking "Walker has the ball are we following plan A,B,C or D?", it looks like a case of over coaching perhaps.

At times early in the first half I thought our top end pressing was good, we were forcing long punts up the field from Skrtel and Sakho, but even when that result in a turn over in possession we looked lost.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

So should we give AVB the rest of the season or get rid now?

Gonna say give him the rest of the season. If doesn't deliver top 4 or a trophy then get rid of him but as bad as the performances and some of the results have been recently I still don't think it's worth sacking him now.
 
Re: @ BrainOfLevy and GutterBoy

First two paragraphs, in complete agreement.

Don't agree with the rest. I admire the likes of you and BOL for being so patient, but I just think your views are balanced. What if AVB's vision isn't the answer? What makes you think he'll even be half as successful as the likes of Wenger and Ferguson? He's never managed at any club for more than 2 seasons. His style of play is boring, slow and the complete opposite of creative.

It genuinely seems to me like you believe that if we sack a manager, bring someone else in and that manager brings us success then you will still believe that AVB would have done it anyway despite the evidence proving otherwise. Enough about this so called genius book of his and the success in a two team league in Portugal. Won't be a smooth ride? 3-0, 6-0 and 5-0 in a matter of weeks is a 10,000 feet plummet in turbulence. Just exactly how long would you give him? Let's say we finish 8th this season below teams with inferior squads? Do you think that is acceptable?

I kind of do believe AVB will achieve success and if a new guy is brought in and gets it from next season onwards, there's a good chance AVB would have gotten it too. I said above that I think targets should have been set more realistically to accommodate for the fact that there were so many new signings from outside of this league. In that case, AVB shouldn't be looked upon as good or bad but merely the guy in charge at the time of the transition, let's set high targets when we feel everyone is settled and ready to get them.

I just really can't see any other guy out there that we can all say 'yes, he's the right man for us, get him in' because they ALL have question marks now. The other bright young managers have been snapped up. The experienced managers are largely dinosaurs or haven't coached in a decade, or have no experience. Or we have young managers from abroad which brings the exact same question mark that AVB has. I don't think the solution is to sack him. Steve Clarke's sacking was pretty bad, but as a mid-table side seeing themselves slide towards the bottom 3 a new manager bounce and some new ideas can change things up enough to keep them in the league. With us, we are looking to make the final step up to being title contenders.

The reason we always get these extraordinary runs of bad form / results is because for years we've tried to step up beyond our normal level. And that has meant trying something a bit radical. Ramos was a bit radical and would have needed time to get things right. Harry wasn't radical and kept us to the level we should be at. AVB again is something radical to get us above our normal level. We don't know for sure if it will work but I can't see that simply sacking a manager allows us to take the next step up.

Any manager that will get us to a level we have never been in the PL will need some sort of time to implement some sort of system. Because otherwise, they will be a Harry-type manager that will just get the players playing to normal levels and not implementing anything that gives us the competitive advantage that allows us to compete with the other club's finances. So we get someone else, who will need time, and we will go through bad runs again, and we go round in circles. There is no-one out there that would guarantee us a title challenge. Even if we got Jurgen Klopp, he would need time. We would probably have some extra bad results because that is the nature of our position, we are trying to take the final step up and it takes something radical and new to get there.

So I don't see that the 'we must sack AVB to improve performances' argument has any more weight behind it than 'AVB will turn it round eventually'. They are both viable. What is annoying is if we are keeping AVB purely for financial reasons because we don't want to give him a pay off. If the plan isn't to trust and back him long term then we should get rid. However if we want to build something long term and we have identified his vision as the one the club will carry out, then let's give it time to happen rather than sacking the 'system manager' to bring in the 'arm round the shoulder boss' only to bring in the system manager only to sack....etc etc.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Did anybody listen to last Monday's TheGame Podcast from the Times?

Pedro Pinto spoke a little about us and AVB....
 
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