American politics

[SkipRat]

The democrats just don't get it. They will not face up to facts.

 

[thfcsteff]

The democrats just don't get it. They will not face up to facts.

That's just meme-ry though. I think the actual democrats who count have finally, finally learnt the lesson they didn't with Hilary. I also think there is a dawning reality in general across the US that there are an awful lot more people who actually don't care about what has happened because (essentially) as long as they're alright then fudge everyone else. And let's face it, no-one likes to admit that's the world we live in. But it currently appears to be :-(

 

[Baleforce]

That's just meme-ry though. I think the actual democrats who count have finally, finally learnt the lesson they didn't with Hilary. I also think there is a dawning reality in general across the US that there are an awful lot more people who actually don't care about what has happened because (essentially) as long as they're alright then fudge everyone else. And let's face it, no-one likes to admit that's the world we live in. But it currently appears to be :-(

You might have nutshelled the whole thing there.

It’s not that the Dems did anything wrong, or ran a bad campaign, it’s that the majority of people don’t care about having a functioning inclusive democracy.

 

[thfcsteff]

You might have nutshelled the whole thing there.

It’s not that the Dems did anything wrong, or ran a bad campaign, it’s that the majority of people don’t care about having a functioning inclusive democracy.

It's a scary thing to consider...but sadly there are few other conclusions. For all the hope that the majority of people in the US care about inclusivity, social support and a balanced society, it seems as if Mike Judge's Idiocracy really WAS some sort of documentary.

 

[Jordinho]

It's a scary thing to consider...but sadly there are few other conclusions. For all the hope that the majority of people in the US care about inclusivity, social support and a balanced society, it seems as if Mike Judge's Idiocracy really WAS some sort of documentary.

The idea of giving minority groups equal rights triggers people. It's as if they think they're losing theirs. The American right are good with propaganda, whether it's communism, taxation or the current culture wars.

I see Walmart are cutting DEI policies after threats of boycott from a conservative end wokeness group.

 

[Baleforce]

The idea of giving minority groups equal rights triggers people. It's as if they think they're losing theirs. The American right are good with propaganda, whether it's communism, taxation or the current culture wars.

I see Walmart are cutting DEI policies after threats of boycott from a conservative end wokeness group.

It’s fudging crazy.

 

[Rorschach]

The takes on why democrats did not do well in the election are many and varied, and all probably have some small kernel of truth in them but they really don't tell the full story. The story really is about who controls the message to the voters that need to be swayed, and who controls it now is the GOP. They have been playing the long game and they are fudging good at it.

I am of the opinion you are what you eat. If your diet is misinformation, hate and fear then you will just end up thinking along those lines. Yes there is a cohort of reactionaries who will never change their opinions and there are some who will just tune out, but if dems are to win again (if they ever get a chance) then they will have to realise that the traditional methods of mobilising the vote will not work anymore. Door-knocking and TV ads will not reach the voters they need to reach. The so-called ground game is changed irrevocably.

 

[thfcsteff]

The takes on why democrats did not do well in the election are many and varied, and all probably have some small kernel of truth in them but they really don't tell the full story. The story really is about who controls the message to the voters that need to be swayed, and who controls it now is the GOP. They have been playing the long game and they are fudging good at it.

I am of the opinion you are what you eat. If your diet is misinformation, hate and fear then you will just end up thinking along those lines. Yes there is a cohort of reactionaries who will never change their opinions and there are some who will just tune out, but if dems are to win again (if they ever get a chance) then they will have to realise that the traditional methods of mobilising the vote will not work anymore. Door-knocking and TV ads will not reach the voters they need to reach. The so-called ground game is changed irrevocably.

Plus the truth that people settle for what makes them comfortable, and a lot of people are happy to settle with fear and ignorance as a friend as long as their immediate circumstances don’t change. Then, when it hits the wall 6-12 months later, there is another wave of misinformation blaming someone else. Rinse and repeat. The Doh Generation.

 

[Grays_1890]

I am of the opinion you are what you eat. If your diet is misinformation, hate and fear then you will just end up thinking along those lines. Yes there is a cohort of reactionaries who will never change their opinions and there are some who will just tune out, but if dems are to win again (if they ever get a chance) then they will have to realise that the traditional methods of mobilising the vote will not work anymore. Door-knocking and TV ads will not reach the voters they need to reach. The so-called ground game is changed irrevocably.

I agree with all of this and I do agree with the other views on here that people need to be listened to and engaged with in order to change their thinking and or voting pattern. The issue for me however is where is that line, those that don't want to be swayed won't be and as you say some love feeding on and spreading misinformation so much that even when presented with facts they just don't want to know.

My firm worry is that the truth is being backed into a corner because people who are out their lying and spreading so many lies hold a significant level of power now, we shouldn't be afraid of calling out liars and bigots in the political system, but its getting to the point where thats becoming trickier because of backlash in numbers.

 

[SkipRat]

That's just meme-ry though. I think the actual democrats who count have finally, finally learnt the lesson they didn't with Hilary. I also think there is a dawning reality in general across the US that there are an awful lot more people who actually don't care about what has happened because (essentially) as long as they're alright then fudge everyone else. And let's face it, no-one likes to admit that's the world we live in. But it currently appears to be :-(

Actually, it's probably more spot on than you think.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860509519476126191

 

[scaramanga]

The idea of giving minority groups equal rights triggers people. It's as if they think they're losing theirs. The American right are good with propaganda, whether it's communism, taxation or the current culture wars.

I see Walmart are cutting DEI policies after threats of boycott from a conservative end wokeness group.

The takes on why democrats did not do well in the election are many and varied, and all probably have some small kernel of truth in them but they really don't tell the full story. The story really is about who controls the message to the voters that need to be swayed, and who controls it now is the GOP. They have been playing the long game and they are fudging good at it.

I am of the opinion you are what you eat. If your diet is misinformation, hate and fear then you will just end up thinking along those lines. Yes there is a cohort of reactionaries who will never change their opinions and there are some who will just tune out, but if dems are to win again (if they ever get a chance) then they will have to realise that the traditional methods of mobilising the vote will not work anymore. Door-knocking and TV ads will not reach the voters they need to reach. The so-called ground game is changed irrevocably.

Plus the truth that people settle for what makes them comfortable, and a lot of people are happy to settle with fear and ignorance as a friend as long as their immediate circumstances don’t change. Then, when it hits the wall 6-12 months later, there is another wave of misinformation blaming someone else. Rinse and repeat. The Doh Generation.

I agree with all of this and I do agree with the other views on here that people need to be listened to and engaged with in order to change their thinking and or voting pattern. The issue for me however is where is that line, those that don't want to be swayed won't be and as you say some love feeding on and spreading misinformation so much that even when presented with facts they just don't want to know.

My firm worry is that the truth is being backed into a corner because people who are out their lying and spreading so many lies hold a significant level of power now, we shouldn't be afraid of calling out liars and bigots in the political system, but its getting to the point where thats becoming trickier because of backlash in numbers.

These posts quite succinctly sum up the problem(s) the Democrats have, but not in the way you think they do.

Democrats still think the issue is that people were tricked into voting Republican, or that it was a matter of the Republicans being better at messaging and advertising.

What they can't seem to fathom is that most of the US simply disagrees with them. It's reminiscent of the remainders after Brexit - they just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that people disagreed with them. Voters must have been tricked, it must have been bots or Russian interference, etc, etc.

The Democrats are on the leftward fringe of the Overton window in the US and they'll have to take up space in the centre of that window if they're to have a hope in 4 years time.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Actually, it's probably more spot on than you think.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860509519476126191

Graphs based on quite old data ...so I'm not sure what that says?

 

[Grays_1890]

These posts quite succinctly sum up the problem(s) the Democrats have, but not in the way you think they do.

Democrats still think the issue is that people were tricked into voting Republican, or that it was a matter of the Republicans being better at messaging and advertising.

What they can't seem to fathom is that most of the US simply disagrees with them. It's reminiscent of the remainders after Brexit - they just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that people disagreed with them. Voters must have been tricked, it must have been bots or Russian interference, etc, etc.

The Democrats are on the leftward fringe of the Overton window in the US and they'll have to take up space in the centre of that window if they're to have a hope in 4 years time.

That wasn't my point at all, my point was that people clearly had reason to vote for what they voted for and that can't be ignored. But there is a line in the sand, on both sides I will add, where there can't be fear of calling out nonsense that's been fact checked.

People are afraid of calling people out misinformation on all sides of the divide because of fear of loss of traction and or pile ons.

Twitters a great example of where fact checking continues to be ignored because people just don't wanna know, believe or their prejudice doesn't allow them to be corrected.

Ultimately you can put your arm round someone to pull them along with you and listen to their grievances, but when they start spouting sh1t you shouldn't be backed into corners where it can't be corrected.

 

[Jordinho]

These posts quite succinctly sum up the problem(s) the Democrats have, but not in the way you think they do.

Democrats still think the issue is that people were tricked into voting Republican, or that it was a matter of the Republicans being better at messaging and advertising.

What they can't seem to fathom is that most of the US simply disagrees with them. It's reminiscent of the remainders after Brexit - they just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that people disagreed with them. Voters must have been tricked, it must have been bots or Russian interference, etc, etc.

The Democrats are on the leftward fringe of the Overton window in the US and they'll have to take up space in the centre of that window if they're to have a hope in 4 years time.

A problem the democrats have is that they're still trying to do what their founding fathers intended: They always seek to compromise, even when they don't need to. Any time they have the house and the senate you just know they'll do nothing with it. The republicans will screw them over at any time given the opportunity, but it doesn't seem like they've realised this yet.

 

[scaramanga]

That wasn't my point at all, my point was that people clearly had reason to vote for what they voted for and that can't be ignored. But there is a line in the sand, on both sides I will add, where there can't be fear of calling out nonsense that's been fact checked.

People are afraid of calling people out misinformation on all sides of the divide because of fear of loss of traction and or pile ons.

Twitters a great example of where fact checking continues to be ignored because people just don't wanna know, believe or their prejudice doesn't allow them to be corrected.

Ultimately you can put your arm round someone to pull them along with you and listen to their grievances, but when they start spouting sh1t you shouldn't be backed into corners where it can't be corrected.

You see, this is still the same problem.

Was there misinformation? Of course. Blatant lies? Definitely. This is how election campaigns have been run since the dawn of democracy - it's one of the main reasons people tend not to trust politicians.

But that's not why the Democrats lost. It's not because their message was smothered or hidden or blatantly lied about. It's not because people failed to call out lies when they saw them. It's because their message is not what the majority wants to hear.

 

[scaramanga]

A problem the democrats have is that they're still trying to do what their founding fathers intended: They always seek to compromise, even when they don't need to. Any time they have the house and the senate you just know they'll do nothing with it. The republicans will screw them over at any time given the opportunity, but it doesn't seem like they've realised this yet.

If enough people agreed with what the Democrats want, they'd have won despite all of that.

Yes, they're terrible at the games of politics. But that's not why people aren't voting for them. As difficult as it is for them to accept, they have to realise that the public (en masse) doesn't want what they're selling.

 

[Grays_1890]

You see, this is still the same problem.

Was there misinformation? Of course. Blatant lies? Definitely. This is how election campaigns have been run since the dawn of democracy - it's one of the main reasons people tend not to trust politicians.

But that's not why the Democrats lost. It's not because their message was smothered or hidden or blatantly lied about. It's not because people failed to call out lies when they saw them. It's because their message is not what the majority wants to hear.

I haven't mentioned the Democrats anywhere, I'm just highlighting what i think is a problem in modern politics again. Across all divides

 

[scaramanga]

I haven't mentioned the Democrats anywhere, I'm just highlighting what i think is a problem in modern politics again. Across all divides

Ah, I understand.

It is a problem, but I don't think it's moving the needle all that much.

The problem is with more traditional lies. One of the most popular policies of this last campaign is using trade tariffs on imports. Anyone who's ever been within sniffing distance of a book on economics knows that protectionism is a terrible idea and can only end in collosal failure. Yet politicians keep pushing that kind of nonsense at the cost of their own electorate.

 

[Rorschach]

These posts quite succinctly sum up the problem(s) the Democrats have, but not in the way you think they do.

Democrats still think the issue is that people were tricked into voting Republican, or that it was a matter of the Republicans being better at messaging and advertising.

What they can't seem to fathom is that most of the US simply disagrees with them. It's reminiscent of the remainders after Brexit - they just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that people disagreed with them. Voters must have been tricked, it must have been bots or Russian interference, etc, etc.

The Democrats are on the leftward fringe of the Overton window in the US and they'll have to take up space in the centre of that window if they're to have a hope in 4 years time.

Tacking right is what lost them the progressive vote. Playing footsie with Cheney and the never-trumpers in an effort to peel off wavering Trump voters lost them too much of their own base. Trump didn't get many more votes than previous elections. It was the drop off in dem votes that swung it.
And most Americans agree with dem policies on the whole. When they go left they win, not the other way around.

 

[Jordinho]

Tacking right is what lost them the progressive vote. Playing footsie with Cheney and the never-trumpers in an effort to peel off wavering Trump voters lost them too much of their own base. Trump didn't get many more votes than previous elections. It was the drop off in dem votes that swung it.
And most Americans agree with dem policies on the whole. When they go left they win, not the other way around.

It's a problem that they have to cater to so many different groups and struggle to find any common ground while the grifters and nutjobs in the other party back each other in everything as long as they get some of what they want for themselves.