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American politics

LutonSpurs said:
I'm not massively comfortable with the direction we are going in terms of censorship and cancel culture tbh. We all get the Trump thing but he has consistently broken rules for years and now as he isn't President he is gone. Parlour being taken off Google too. Nasty thing. Was nasty before. But gone now.
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I'm not massively comfortable with it either.

At the same time I'm not massively comfortable with the way social media is being used to spread conspiracy theories, racism, fascism and instigate coup attempts.

Of the two discomforts I think the tech companies are slowly, belatedly, moving from worse to somewhat marginally better.

Deplatforming used to be kind of a no go thing for me, I've changed my mind on that. But it's not comfortable, but unless we can get much better humans fairly quickly I think it's necessary.
 
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Diamond Lights said:
I miss the days when Nazi's were considered bad guys. The far right were allowed by the media to rebrand as "Alt-Right" when non-figuratively there was nothing alternative about them.

Hate brown/black folk? Check
Belief in White superiority? Check
Holocaust denial? Check

So I don't care much about cancel culture.

Remember that ******** Milo? Where's he now?
clamy Hopkins?

When you de-platform people who are non-figuratively calling for genocide of a race, I don't see that as a problem really.

In the spirit of free speech should we give a platform to Paedos for example? Let them publicly make a case for it? No. So let's not give some people a platform who non-figuratively are happy with black people or Jews being killed.

Call me old school.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Agree fully.

It's more difficult with those who hide behind some veil of credibility. Who will not outright state what they actually mean or the logical consequences of what they're saying.

I'm not sure where the line should be, but I think the line should be moved towards deplatforming more instead of sticking to our current course.
 
braineclipse said:
So "polite society" is just another way of say that there aren't any racists apart from the racists?

It's fair enough to say Trump wouldn't get a dinner invite, but the power he has, the power of other racists, the power of those willing to support racists, impacts a lot of people in and outside of "polite society".

One might say that because it probably doesn't impact you much you're speaking from a position of privelege?
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Polite society is another way of describing the sections of society that everyone aspires to be a part of.


braineclipse said:
Just to be clear, that's a statement you agree with?
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Of course not - that would be judging someone's opinion based on the skin colour or gender, etc.
 
scaramanga said:
Polite society is another way of describing the parts of society that everyone aspires to be a part of.



Of course not - that would be judging someone's opinion based on the skin colour or gender, etc.
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Far from everyone aspires to be a part of the part of society that excludes overt racists.

I must have worded my question wrong then. I was asking about examples of privelege you agree with.
 
braineclipse said:
Far from everyone aspires to be a part of the part of society that excludes overt racists.

I must have worded my question wrong then. I was asking about examples of privelege you agree with.
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@Lost Mango described it better.

Privilege comes from wealth and power, that's why so many people spend their lives amassing it for them and their kids.
 
scaramanga said:
Plenty pretend not to but strive all the same.
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What was the point in history when "polite society", or the establishment, stopped accepting racists? Seems to me it must be a fairly recent development.
scaramanga said:
@Lost Mango described it better.

Privilege comes from wealth and power, that's why so many people spend their lives amassing it for them and their kids.
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Having wealth and power, family wealth and power especially, is obviously a privelege.

Black people in the US are way more likely to be incarcerated for Cannabis charges. Despite black and white people using it at a similar rate. This can be explained away by wealth and power, but why isn't it also fair to say that this is a privelege for white people? Particularly given that the reason for the gap in wealth and power is racism.
 
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braineclipse said:
What was the point in history when "polite society", or the establishment, stopped accepting racists? Seems to me it must be a fairly recent development. Having wealth and power, family wealth and power especially, is obviously a privelege.
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Certainly during my lifetime.

I distinctly remember as a kid people who would claim to not be racist but use racist language all the time.

Whilst there will be people who are racist in any large enough group, expressing such opinions would be considered absolutely unacceptable amongst everyone I know (and I don't exactly spend my time in the company of lefty activist types).

braineclipse said:
Black people in the US are way more likely to be incarcerated for Cannabis charges. Despite black and white people using it at a similar rate. This can be explained away by wealth and power, but why isn't it also fair to say that this is a privelege for white people? Particularly given that the reason for the gap in wealth and power is racism.
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I'd say that it's far more an economic issue than it is a race one.

In the US there's a lot of correlation between wealth and race, but I think there's a cause and effect confusion to suggest that incarceration is mainly a race issue.
 
scaramanga said:
Certainly during my lifetime.

I distinctly remember as a kid people who would claim to not be racist but use racist language all the time.

Whilst there will be people who are racist in any large enough group, expressing such opinions would be considered absolutely unacceptable amongst everyone I know (and I don't exactly spend my time in the company of lefty activist types).


I'd say that it's far more an economic issue than it is a race one.

In the US there's a lot of correlation between wealth and race, but I think there's a cause and effect confusion to suggest that incarceration is mainly a race issue.
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So it depends on how one defines racism. I think there are multiple ways of defining it that are valid, ranging from wide to narrow. Using a different definition to yours doesn't make one wrong.

I'm guessing we agree on that correlation being caused by historical racism. I would suggest that policies that have the effect of maintaining that gap have a racist effect. It keeps a group disenfranchised by (more overt, explicit) racism disenfranchised for longer.

That to me seems like systemic racism. The system has racist effects, on a group level.

On the flip side of that is white privelege. Not for everyone, but on average you're better off financially being born white than black. That to me seems like a privelege.
 
scaramanga said:
Certainly during my lifetime.

I distinctly remember as a kid people who would claim to not be racist but use racist language all the time.

Whilst there will be people who are racist in any large enough group, expressing such opinions would be considered absolutely unacceptable amongst everyone I know (and I don't exactly spend my time in the company of lefty activist types).


I'd say that it's far more an economic issue than it is a race one.

In the US there's a lot of correlation between wealth and race, but I think there's a cause and effect confusion to suggest that incarceration is mainly a race issue.
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For someone that regularly shoots down other peoples experience or opinions as anecdotal, you spend a lot of time strongly expressing opinions and experience based on your personal experience and circle of family and friends.
 
AuroRaman said:
For someone that regularly shoots down other peoples experience or opinions as anecdotal, you spend a lot of time strongly expressing opinions and experience based on your personal experience and circle of family and friends.
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Short of some kind of large-scale racism survey where people were genuinely honest about their opinions, I'm not sure how else we can guage what people think.
 
Diamond Lights said:
You have to understand culturally it's very different there. Few factors but one of the main ones is the President has a status, he's the president. Whoever holds that title, they're indoctrinated from a young age on believing a certain infallibility about the title. If the president says something, he's speaking the truth.

Second of all (and this is what scares me for the UK)... You have a variety of news networks. Now, where do we consume most of our info from? BBC. The BBC whilst slated from both left and right does a fairly decent job of appealing to the mass audience and generally fair reporting.

As you get factions of new news channels coming up like Fox etc (and this is now happening in UK next year with a new right wing channel) you'll end up peeling off some people who consume that "general mass" info and giving them slanted views such as Fox etc.

Lastly, the echo chamber that is twitter. This is why politics so polarised. People on the left follow people on the left and consume that info and same for the right. I had to get off twitter couple of years ago it was all consuming for me. Read the Bellingcat Ashley Babbit piece I think @Rorsach shared, shows a clear spiral into the abyss on her social media.

It's radicalisation plain and simple. That's what we'd call it if the person was Islamic. Because it's white people in the US we give them a pass.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Great post, having lived/worked in America for a while i got to see just how much their society is so much different then ours. I once had a LONG chat with a few American co workers about their political system/beliefs and it was eye opening to say the least. Its such a huge country and its fair to say that beliefs/ideals are huge and different depending what State you are in.

Personally i loved my time there but there is no doubt that Americans are so different in their beliefs/ ideas then any other country i have spent time in (and i have lived in a few). You point about the news industry is also spot on and depending what you watch you tend to get brainwashed by it. Sad to say in todays world there are so many folks who believe what they read ( and that does not only mean those in America) that i despair sometimes just where it will end up. Social media is hughely to blame for a lot of what is happening in the world and the divides it is causing in every country.

I have had conversations with folks ( in real life) who argue/discuss their points on nothing but the information they get from the likes of T watt er and little from real life and do not for one minute dis-believe what they read is fact. Sad really.
 
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