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American politics

On the obstruction thing, Mueller did not make any call one way or the other which is weird and left it up to the AG to decide. As Barr's job interview to Trump was basically an opinion that he didn't obstruct justice (before he saw any evidence) I guess him saying that now was not surprising. If Barr had found Trump had engaged in obstruction it would have triggered impeachment proceedings. So Barr has saved Trump from impeachment with that call and it was the job he was appointed to do. Considering Trump admitted to it live on TV I can't square that circle.

On the conspiracy charge, it looks like the evidence was there but not up to the standard of a criminal change (90%+ sure is the number quoted). I guess congress will dig deeper on that one.
 
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An inconclusive report isn't necessarily a good thing for Trump as it will just make the Democrats in congress push on with more investigations of their own. Best case scenario could be that he loses the election next year and is then hit with a bunch of charges. There's no way his finances are clean.
 
We don't yet know what the report even says. We know Barr's summary which is very likely biased. The report needs to be released in full and Mueller needs to testify before congress.
 
Jordinho said:
An inconclusive report isn't necessarily a good thing for Trump as it will just make the Democrats in congress push on with more investigations of their own. Best case scenario could be that he loses the election next year and is then hit with a bunch of charges. There's no way his finances are clean.
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They are not. There are some 18 other investigations ongoing into Trump and his businesses. He's a career criminal so he won't avoid charges. The legal opinions I have read say that being president is the only thing that is keeping him out of prison now, which is why he has to get reelected.
 
Rorschach said:
They are not. There are some 18 other investigations ongoing into Trump and his businesses. He's a career criminal so he won't avoid charges. The legal opinions I have read say that being president is the only thing that is keeping him out of prison now, which is why he has to get reelected.
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Indeed, by doing so he guarantees that he will have his impending heart attack in the Whitehouse and not in a cell!
 
Rorschach said:
On the obstruction thing, Mueller did not make any call one way or the other which is weird and left it up to the AG to decide. As Barr's job interview to Trump was basically an opinion that he didn't obstruct justice (before he saw any evidence) I guess him saying that now was not surprising. If Barr had found Trump had engaged in obstruction it would have triggered impeachment proceedings. So Barr has saved Trump from impeachment with that call and it was the job he was appointed to do. Considering Trump admitted to it live on TV I can't square that circle.

On the conspiracy charge, it looks like the evidence was there but not up to the standard of a criminal change (90%+ sure is the number quoted). I guess congress will dig deeper on that one.
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So a bit more reading tells me that congress will review the obstruction evidence and if they think it warrants it will initiate impeachment proceedings. Barr will be called before congress to testify about this and how he came to his conclusion.

On the 'collusion' charge it seems the focus of the Mueller investigation was very narrow, conspiring with IRA/Russian hackers, and they could not prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, so no indictment for that. However, that is not the only strand of the collusion investigation. It is just the one Mueller was looking at and the rest has been farmed out to other investigators.
 
I thought Trump was supposed to be the Manchurian candidate and Mueller was going to prove collusion, with Trump going down for treason?

I'm sure he's a rich crook and they have found stuff on him that proves he's a crook, which is good -- if the qunt ends up in jail, the world is a better place. The Russia hysteria though, not so good. Because if he is clear of that, then it means 1. The Democrats wasted a lot of energy hyping it, which will get thrown back at them come the 2020 campaign and 2. it allowed Clinton and those who share her politics to refuse to acknowledge their own failings and just go "Russia! Russia! Russia!" non-stop. There's a lot of people who have made money out of the hype as well, ratings, clicks, book sales.

Perhaps there will be more to the collusion angle if/when the report is released, but it doesn't seem likely. IMO that was just a handy excuse for the investigation, they knew they'd find something on him once a special prosecutor started digging into his dodgy dealings.
 
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the dza said:
I thought Trump was supposed to be the Manchurian candidate and Mueller was going to prove collusion, with Trump going down for treason?

I'm sure he's a rich crook and they have found stuff on him that proves he's a crook, which is good -- if the qunt ends up in jail, the world is a better place. The Russia hysteria though, not so good. Because if he is clear of that, then it means 1. The Democrats wasted a lot of energy hyping it, which will get thrown back at them come the 2020 campaign and 2. it allowed Clinton and those who share their politics to refuse to acknowledge their own failings and just go "Russia! Russia! Russia!" non-stop. There's a lot of people who have made money out of the hype as well, ratings, clicks, book sales.

Perhaps there will be more to the collusion angle if/when the report is released, but it doesn't seem likely. IMO that was just a handy excuse for the investigation, they knew they'd find something on him once a special prosecutor started digging into his dodgy dealings.
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He's not clear of the Russia thing really. It appears the Muller investigation scope was a lot narrower than people thought. It covered none of the Trump Tower stuff, the sanctions relief/quid pro quo stuff, the foreign policy stuff, etc. Even Stone's WIKI leaks/email drop thing hasn't been tried yet. So those investigations are ongoing, just not by Mueller. The charge that Trump conspired with the IRA and/or hackers is the one that didn't meet the burden of proof for indictment. That seems to have been the narrow remit for Mueller's investigation, that and the obstruction charge.

The obstruction charge is the one the legal heads seem to be annoyed over, not the conspiring with hackers charge so much. I think the full report needs to come out or it will just look like a cover up.

edit: Pence is the Manchurian candidate. He's the Koch brothers guy ;)
 
Rorschach said:
He's not clear of the Russia thing really. It appears the Muller investigation scope was a lot narrower than people thought. It covered none of the Trump Tower stuff, the sanctions relief/quid pro quo stuff, the foreign policy stuff, etc. Even Stone's WIKI leaks/email drop thing hasn't been tried yet. So those investigations are ongoing, just not by Mueller. The charge that Trump conspired with the IRA and/or hackers is the one that didn't meet the burden of proof for indictment. That seems to have been the narrow remit for Mueller's investigation, that and the obstruction charge.

The obstruction charge is the one the legal heads seem to be annoyed over, not the conspiring with hackers charge so much.
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I said a similar thing awhile ago in this thread, that I think Trump's a crook but I don't think there is much to the collusion stuff or that he is Putin's puppet or whatever. And everyone goes "just you wait, there's loads, wait until Mueller is done." And he's done and there still ain't sh1t to it. More "just you wait!" Russiagate has become a religion to people imo and that'd be fine, if it didn't distract from the real issue that corporate democrats and a sh1t media is why the world has President Trump. And it's those same two groups that push Russia collusion the hardest.
 
the dza said:
I said a similar thing awhile ago in this thread, that I think Trump's a crook but I don't think there is much to the collusion stuff or that he is Putin's puppet or whatever. And everyone goes "just you wait, there's loads, wait until Mueller is done." And he's done and there still ain't sh1t to it. More "just you wait!" Russiagate has become a religion to people imo and that'd be fine, if it didn't distract from the real issue that corporate democrats and a sh1t media is why the world has President Trump. And it's those same two groups that push Russia collusion the hardest.
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Fair enough. You are ignoring a lot of stuff but whatever floats your boat.

And whatever you think about the Russian investigation, the obstruction charge was a slam dunk. That'll be back.
 
Rorschach said:
Fair enough. You are ignoring a lot of stuff but whatever floats your boat.

And whatever you think about the Russian investigation, the obstruction charge was a slam dunk. That'll be back.
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Float my boat? Floats Robert Mueller's boat more like.
 
nayenezgani said:
We don't yet know what the report even says. We know Barr's summary which is very likely biased. The report needs to be released in full and Mueller needs to testify before congress.
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Sadly too late.

As we have seen time and time again with this bloke, the first loud shot across the bough had better be worth it. He has won this situation. They could go on to list 99 examples of corruption and it would not matter because he will sandblast them into oblivion by tweeting time and time again that Mueller said there was no collusion, so by default everything else becomes "a lie" too.

Contexts and truths simply don't matter.
 
Rorschach said:
Not totally sure what that means, but let's break it down. What do you think was proved or not today? Do you think Trump has been exonerated from any Russia related charge?
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That the investigation turned up no evidence that Trump or his campaign conspired with Russia to help him win the 2016 election.

And this after 2 years of people screaming that Mueller was going to take Trump down for treason/being a traitor/Putin puppet etc.

IMO, Trump has been given massive ammunition for 2020, when they could have just focussed on his terrible policies and maybe general criminality surrounding his business dealings. This is what p1sses me off about it, the cult of Russiagate have boosted his chances in 2020. And for what? To basically shield Hilary Clinton and her ilk from too much criticism.
 
the dza said:
That the investigation turned up no evidence that Trump or his campaign conspired with Russia to help him win the 2016 election.

And this after 2 years of people screaming that Mueller was going to take Trump down for treason/being a traitor/Putin puppet etc.

IMO, Trump has been given massive ammunition for 2020, when they could have just focussed on his terrible policies and maybe general criminality surrounding his business dealings. This is what p1sses me off about it, the cult of Russiagate have boosted his chances in 2020. And for what? To basically shield Hilary Clinton and her ilk from too much criticism.
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This is not factually correct. The early reporting on this is full of hyperbole and spin. There is evidence and Trump was not exonerated. As I mentioned previously the evidence did not meet a high enough standard to push a criminal prosecution. That is not the same as no evidence. For an indictment the bar is set very high, 90% sure it happened, and maybe even higher in this case considering it is a sitting president. The Barr report stated that the evidence did NOT exonerate Trump and that in a report written to make him look good.

The other point I made on this is that the only charge Muller was investigating was - did Trump conspire with the Russian state - and as I just said they couldn't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. That is only one piece of the Russia story. The other investigations relevant to Russian collusion are still ongoing. Trump has 20 different investigations ongoing against him, though some of these are financial crimes unrelated to this Russia thing. These all originated with Mueller but were outside the scope of his original remit and were farmed out.

The real problem as you and @thfcsteff points out is that Trump will seek to use the outcome of this conspiracy case and drown out everything that comes later with the no collusion chants. You might think all of these investigations are a waste of time but the cost of not doing them is far higher in my opinion. Anyway, I won't bore ye any more with this. I've hit my 3 reply max ;)
 
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Rorschach said:
You might think all of these investigations are a waste of time but the cost of not doing them is far higher in my opinion. Anyway, I won't bore ye any more with this. I've hit my 3 reply max ;)
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Fair enough, and I appreciate your replies anyway mate, as I know we fundamentally disagree on this particular area of politics (other than thinking that Trump is a qunt!)

And if another ongoing investigation does end up proving collusion, I will gladly hold my hands up.
 
Rorschach said:
This is not factually correct. The early reporting on this is full of hyperbole and spin. There is evidence and the Trump was not exonerated. As I mentioned previously the evidence did not meet a high enough standard to push a criminal prosecution. That is not the same as no evidence. For an indictment the bar is set very high, 90% sure it happened, and maybe even higher in this case considering it is a sitting president. The Barr report stated that the evidence did NOT exonerate Trump and that in a report written to make him look good.

The other point I made on this is that the only charge Muller was investigating was - did Trump conspire with the hackers - and as I just said they couldn't prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. That is only one piece of the Russia story. The other investigations relevant to Russian collusion are still ongoing. Trump has 20 different investigations ongoing against him, though some of these are financial crimes unrelated to this Russia thing. These all originated with Mueller but were outside the scope of his original remit and were farmed out.

The real problem as you and @thfcsteff points out is that Trump will seek to use the outcome of this conspiracy case and drown out everything that comes later with the no collusion chants. You might think all of these investigations are a waste of time but the cost of not doing them is far higher in my opinion. Anyway, I won't bore ye any more with this. I've hit my 3 reply max ;)
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As you said, Mueller DID NOT exonerate Trump. A few folk are suggesting that the report COULD BE a road map to future actions against Trump in other arenas - specifically SDNY - where pardons cannot be issued. BUT Trump is a human roosterroach who seems to survive most of the threats to his safety. The 202 election is still a long way away and the economy will, as always in the US, play a large part in his electability. That and the vote stealing, voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering.

More importantly, COYS!!!!
 
90291Spur said:
As you said, Mueller DID NOT exonerate Trump. A few folk are suggesting that the report COULD BE a road map to future actions against Trump in other arenas - specifically SDNY - where pardons cannot be issued. BUT Trump is a human roosterroach who seems to survive most of the threats to his safety. The 202 election is still a long way away and the economy will, as always in the US, play a large part in his electability. That and the vote stealing, voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering.

More importantly, COYS!!!!
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If you flip this on its head and ask the question, what is an acceptable level of collusion for a united states president? The answer surely has to zero, zip, nada. That there is any evidence at all is fairly mind-boggling, but somehow Trump has managed to even get mainstream media accepting of this narrative.
 
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