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Roberto De Zerbi *OFFICIAL*

glasgowspur said:
I do agree with you on Harry checking out to a point, but I don't think it was managers, it was on the club and the refusal of the club to back the manager.
Eventually he was going for personal records rather than what was best for the team.
Not right in my book, but difficult blame him.
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Yeah, I thought he would have gone a year or two earlier to be fair. That was never my issue with Harry. I just think in 2021 when he had the City interest he changed his disposition as a Spurs player. Staying in Miami when we had a new manager through the door and making it all about him didn't sit well with me. Also, that nonsense with his brother as well.

I think we all know the history. We didn't spend so much back then and we certainly didn't buy well.
 
Aldo said:
So when it’s a negative it’s the managers fault (Southgate) but when something good happens it was down to their player (Modric). Why couldn’t our players have seen and corrected what you say Modric spotted? Why do you put it all on Southgate?
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Nah, I never put it all on Southgate. You said that, not me. I think the defenders on the pitch could have corrected the Maguire/Young issue but I'm not sure what Hendo could do about what was happening around him to be fair. That overload was on the manager and he didn't change it all game. Southgate picked that formation. Playing a right footed wing back was never going to work. He even had Danny Rose sitting on the bench. He came on towards the end of the game and it looked more balanced. The problem was as much in the middle of the park.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Agree and disagree, football is still very much a fluid game where scenarios arise where players need to use their own brains and intuition of the game to exceed.

The issue at Spurs is 100% in that area IMO, despite the "leadership" group none of them have a natural flair or feel for the game to show that level of responsibility or intuition. The only one that looks anywhere near that kind of player who has a decent footballing IQ is Gray

Coaches can drill into players things he wants them to do in certain moments and situations, its still down to the player to realise and know when he is in those situations in the heat of a game.

There is still space for freedom of thought, we are terrible at it
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I think it’s the coaches drilling it out of them
And I do agree we don’t use our brains much
Let’s see how Cherki fares at city over time with his skills
 
Baleforce said:
Thin and thin?

It’s been our most successful period ever.




Then he walked away from one of the biggest personal records there is.
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Which he would have broken and probably run up a tally no one will ever beat if Levy had allowed him to move to city when he wanted to.
By then he had sussed spurs couldn't fulfil his ambition and were not about to invest to match it.
 
Muttley said:
I'm actually not playing the blame game though. That is perhaps your narrative. I'm actually stating that when the dynamic between manager and player isn't right then bad things can happen.

I think @Bedfordspurs said it above. It's about belief in the manager who needs to get the players onside. When that player believes in their manager, then great things can happen. I genuinely don't think Kane believed in most of the post-Poch systems even though they were clearly accommodating him more than others. I reckon Harry hated the Conte rope-a-dope first halves. The difference between him versus Moura and Sonny was that he knew what he should be doing to lead the line. He just didn't believe it is how we should be playing. I think Harry was perhaps more into Jose but hated that massive chasm between the deep midfield and himself and Sonny. Of course we will never know how Ange would have accommodated a more mature Kane in his setup. On the surface, it appeared that Ange wanted 10 outfield workaholics. Ange clearly moulded an important role for Solanke, in a way that Johnson and Son got the lion's share of goals. I'm not sure that could have been the case with Harry.
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If you're honest, you'll read back the posts you've written on Kane and admit that you are blaming him for (as you have put it) not giving his all in various situations. Thus why I responded with a list of 'blamees'.

I am not sure if it is your point or @Bedfordspurs , but the rest of what you've written is (I'd say) absolutely on point with regards to Kane. Where I disagree is that he earned the rigtht to be heard. I think the way we played under both seriously hampered him, in a physical sense. I also think he suffered through the pandemic exhaustion/overplay issue.
 
Muttley said:
I was in Moscow in 2018 for Croatia. Southgate was a prick. He allowed Maguire to pull Ashley Young inside marking his man leaving Dele to manage the entire left side. Maguire and Stones were both free all of the time. Neither marked a player. That left Hendo running around like a mad man and to be fair to Lingard he worked hard as well. Raheem was fantastic in that first half against Croatia. But for very weak refereeing, we would have had them on yellows if not down to 10. They just couldn't have handled our direct running.

Then the second half happened. Modric spotted what I'm talking about and ran the show. He could see that Dele was playing as a second wing back and just kept the ball inside as they overloaded us.

One of the worst manager performances I've ever seen. Up there with what happened in the Euros a couple of years later. I still think we would have lost to France but we could have easily been in a WC final.
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I first complained about the way in which Southgate was'adapting' Dele back at that time.
To accommodate Lingard/an extra attacking player. Had he played Dele in his natural position, I think we could've won the whole thing. In many ways it marked the start of something which is now ubiquitous...the death of the maverick/instinctually brilliant footballer. I doubt there'd be room for Berbatov in today's game sadly...
 
WillWeEverBeGoodAgain said:
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Honestly, the people tripping over themselves to claim De Zerbi is going to be this or that, is so ITK minded. And then, when it doesn't happen, 'well he didnt do x, y, z like we said'. Let's just wait and see.
 
thfcsteff said:
If you're honest, you'll read back the posts you've written on Kane and admit that you are blaming him for (as you have put it) not giving his all in various situations. Thus why I responded with a list of 'blamees'.

I am not sure if it is your point or @Bedfordspurs , but the rest of what you've written is (I'd say) absolutely on point with regards to Kane. Where I disagree is that he earned the rigtht to be heard. I think the way we played under both seriously hampered him, in a physical sense. I also think he suffered through the pandemic exhaustion/overplay issue.
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I do think you should perhaps acknowledge that you can take a smaller narrative and position it as a bigger one to perhaps suit your own argument. LOL - you made it out as if I was blaming Kane for Ukraine, Iran and all the rest of Trumps misdemeanours. I really wasn't.

I was mostly giving examples of where the disharmony between managers and players causes issues. That was my main theme. @Bedfordspurs was stating that the manager needs to get the players buy in. I agree, but I probably put more emphasis on players following instructions and pushing back on them. I didn't like most of these managers and their tactics either but I still expect highly paid footballers to give their all and play to instruction whether they believe in it or not. Hojbjerg was yet another who played in that team who was caught walking over the half way line as the ball hit our net. Not a good look for someone in his position. This is what I often talk about when I think of the THFC culture. It is as if this behaviour is acceptable at our club.

All these small cogs make a difference in running the machine. I do blame these players for not playing their part in the bigger puzzle. Everyone needs to pay their part. However, I'm not one who ever thinks single root causes exist in football. Unless I'm mistaken that was your angle in the way you position my Kane commentary. It was as if I was saying all our woes were all on him. I wasn't and have never felt that. There are many contributing factors.

I do think the cultural issue is perhaps the biggest root cause at Spurs. It's the one that worries me the most.
 
Muttley said:
I do think you should perhaps acknowledge that you can take a smaller narrative and position it as a bigger one to perhaps suit your own argument. LOL - you made it out as if I was blaming Kane for Ukraine, Iran and all the rest of Trumps misdemeanours. I really wasn't.

I was mostly giving examples of where the disharmony between managers and players causes issues. That was my main theme. @Bedfordspurs was stating that the manager needs to get the players buy in. I agree, but I probably put more emphasis on players following instructions and pushing back on them. I didn't like most of these managers and their tactics either but I still expect highly paid footballers to give their all and play to instruction whether they believe in it or not. Hojbjerg was yet another who played in that team who was caught walking over the half way line as the ball hit our net. Not a good look for someone in his position. This is what I often talk about when I think of the THFC culture. It is as if this behaviour is acceptable at our club.

All these small cogs make a difference in running the machine. I do blame these players for not playing their part in the bigger puzzle. Everyone needs to pay their part. However, I'm not one who ever thinks single root causes exist in football. Unless I'm mistaken that was your angle in the way you position my Kane commentary. It was as if I was saying all our woes were all on him. I wasn't and have never felt that. There are many contributing factors.

I do think the cultural issue is perhaps the biggest root cause at Spurs. It's the one that worries me the most.
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All good.
We disagree.
Over time, you have repeatedly criticized Kane and said you felt he was 'copping out' in the latter post-Poch days.
I disagree.
It is no more or less than that.
'Blaming him for Ukraine, etc...' what are you sipping my friend? :)
 
i was thinking about this, seeing how DZ is already slightly agitated in his first couple of training sessions. above all, i don't think he is asking for too much - play faster, run into receiving positions, be a step/pass faster than the opposition due to available third players. i mean this is what we aspire to do in casual football too.

however this is the epl and at the highest level, you need to do this instinctively and deliberately. you need players who excel at the small rondo games but also thinking alike in seeking opportunities to break lines or find the player who can put in the key pass. in short you don't just need ballers but also smart players who love a good link up.

i think the following senior players won't find it easy for the following reasons:
- richarlison: poor first touch
- vicario: nervous playing the ball at his feet
- romero: has all the elements but needs to play at the team's pace not his
- porro, who plays teammates into trouble frequently
- palhinha: no natural attacking mindset (bentancur will do better)

i also think the young players will benefit from DZ's more structured third-man system, as it comes straight out of academy stuff:
- grey: i think he will be a star - he has better awareness, thinks and gets the ball out faster than simons
- muani: he is the awkward, gangly, physical player you want to put through on goal
- bergvall: so far he's been impressive but looks lost progressing the ball forwards and will benefit from more structured play
- souza, tel and odobert: DZ will want them to be 1v1 monsters. I believe eventually Tel will come up on top because he naturally wants to attack and score, great we have three who can operate across both wings

verdict is going to be out for a few younger players:
- sarr has been like jack of all trades but master of none, perhaps a good utility player from the bench
- dragusin who is an old fashioned defender, but prone to mistakes or misjudgements when playing out from the back
- kinski, who needs to overcome a poor CL appearance, but i think he is going to be OK



WillWeEverBeGoodAgain said:
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metalgear said:
i was thinking about this, seeing how DZ is already slightly agitated in his first couple of training sessions. above all, i don't think he is asking for too much - play faster, run into receiving positions, be a step/pass faster than the opposition due to available third players. i mean this is what we aspire to do in casual football too.

however this is the epl and at the highest level, you need to do this instinctively and deliberately. you need players who excel at the small rondo games but also thinking alike in seeking opportunities to break lines or find the player who can put in the key pass. in short you don't just need ballers but also smart players who love a good link up.

i think the following senior players won't find it easy for the following reasons:
- richarlison: poor first touch
- vicario: nervous playing the ball at his feet
- romero: has all the elements but needs to play at the team's pace not his
- porro, who plays teammates into trouble frequently
- palhinha: no natural attacking mindset (bentancur will do better)

i also think the young players will benefit from DZ's more structured third-man system, as it comes straight out of academy stuff:
- grey: i think he will be a star - he has better awareness, thinks and gets the ball out faster than simons
- muani: he is the awkward, gangly, physical player you want to put through on goal
- bergvall: so far he's been impressive but looks lost progressing the ball forwards and will benefit from more structured play
- souza, tel and odobert: DZ will want them to be 1v1 monsters. I believe eventually Tel will come up on top because he naturally wants to attack and score, great we have three who can operate across both wings

verdict is going to be out for a few younger players:
- sarr has been like jack of all trades but master of none, perhaps a good utility player from the bench
- dragusin who is an old fashioned defender, but prone to mistakes or misjudgements when playing out from the back
- kinski, who needs to overcome a poor CL appearance, but i think he is going to be OK
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Porro and Romero for me will be key for De Zerbi to play the way he wants to. Romero already does the "opponents decides our speed" thing. If we can get Porro more passing options instead of giving him the ball in difficult situations asking him to do the very difficult things he and we will improve.

Richarlison for me will depend on if the players deeper can do what De Zerbi wants thus leaving him to do what he does well. If we're left requiring Richarlison to do hold up and link up play we and him will struggle.

Agreed on the younger players. Midfield composition will be key and difficult to get right. Can't help thinking that Gray will be key and I think De Zerbi could be really good for him. But difficult to see a partnership there.

Will be interesting to see what he can get from Tel, Kolo Muani and Simons.
 
Muttley said:
I do think you should perhaps acknowledge that you can take a smaller narrative and position it as a bigger one to perhaps suit your own argument. LOL - you made it out as if I was blaming Kane for Ukraine, Iran and all the rest of Trumps misdemeanours. I really wasn't.

I was mostly giving examples of where the disharmony between managers and players causes issues. That was my main theme. @Bedfordspurs was stating that the manager needs to get the players buy in. I agree, but I probably put more emphasis on players following instructions and pushing back on them. I didn't like most of these managers and their tactics either but I still expect highly paid footballers to give their all and play to instruction whether they believe in it or not. Hojbjerg was yet another who played in that team who was caught walking over the half way line as the ball hit our net. Not a good look for someone in his position. This is what I often talk about when I think of the THFC culture. It is as if this behaviour is acceptable at our club.

All these small cogs make a difference in running the machine. I do blame these players for not playing their part in the bigger puzzle. Everyone needs to pay their part. However, I'm not one who ever thinks single root causes exist in football. Unless I'm mistaken that was your angle in the way you position my Kane commentary. It was as if I was saying all our woes were all on him. I wasn't and have never felt that. There are many contributing factors.

I do think the cultural issue is perhaps the biggest root cause at Spurs. It's the one that worries me the most.
Click to expand...
To me "giving their all" will absolutely be influenced by belief in what the manager is trying to instill. To me that just seems like human psychology. Doesn't matter how much money they're paid, how professional they're supposed to be. If there's real belief there that will get more out of the players.

Of course there will also be individual differences. And some (few) will be able to deliver close to their best regardless of the circumstances. But that's rare enough that we can't rely on that as our culture.

We probably do need to improve the culture. But the path to that is imo bound to be in part through real belief that what the manager is trying to do will work, will be good for the individual players, that this is the "project" they want to be a part of.

And a huge part of that too is to what extent the players are good profile fits for what the manager wants to implement. There's no way to sell the idea that a player that isn't a good profile fit will be great in that system with conviction.
 
Muttley said:
There has to be compromise both ways though. Ultimately, it is down to the manager to get the players to believe in their philosophies. However, it is also down to the players to have some faith and, even if they have doubts, to knuckle down and follow the manager. The latter has been a long term problem at Spurs even with international captains who were passive aggressive to their managers. The latter day Kane was probably the best example of that. He'd say all the right things on interview but still be the guy that didn't show for the out ball, would pull out of a header with his back to goal or go through the motions of shutting down without really ever applying pressure on the GK or defender. You strip Kane back from the great goalscoring and I can imagine he gave his managers some dilemmas. The more obvious example was Sissoko who just let his heart rule his head whilst better players like Eriksen and Winks ended up covering in for him when he was caught ahead of play. No way any manager would want to constrain a maestro like Eriksen for a limited player like Mousa.

We have had several examples of where the managers are naturally compromised with some of our players. I don't think that will be the case with RDZ though. Even though a player like Romero can easily become a Kane, I don't thing RDZ will let it happen. He will keep Romero grounded in reality and probably improve him as a footballer.
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Don't think later years Kane could physically do what he could do earlier in his career.

Kane to me seems the closest we've had to a model pro at the club in many years. Since Bale/Modric/whoever.

The expectation of him to be perfect regardless of the circumstances is part of what I was talking about in my previous post. If that wasn't even possible (in your eyes) for him, what chance do we have to build a team of players with that mentality (who are also good enough at football).

The surrounding circumstances will impact performances, professionalism, mentality and players giving their all. It's up to the club and manager to create the circumstances that foster growth in those areas.
 
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