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Creationist v Evolution

We are Tottenham

We are Tottenham

Mido
So here we go again...chicken or egg? .Where did we come from?
As a questioner of what life is ..what's the truth..if there is such a thing as truth?
I had to post this, as I understand that some great thinkers on glory glory..cough.. splutter, think that Creationist's ie,those that believe in GHod have come to their conclusion's mostly by Religious superstitious understanding rather than scientific reasoning and are just bonkers!

I came across this one of many Professors who claim,s Evolution is not possible after Scientific examination.
here it is.

Only 40 min;s or so ...Happy viewing

any thoughts will be much appreciated...
 
We are Tottenham said:
So here we go again...chicken or egg? .Where did we come from?
As a questioner of what life is ..what's the truth..if there is such a thing as truth?
I had to post this, as I understand that some great thinkers on glory glory..cough.. splutter, think that Creationist's ie,those that believe in GHod have come to their conclusion's mostly by Religious superstitious understanding rather than scientific reasoning and are just bonkers!

I came across this one of many Professors who claim,s Evolution is not possible after Scientific examination.
here it is.

Only 40 min;s or so ...Happy viewing

any thoughts will be much appreciated...
Click to expand...
It's simple really.

There is no correct application of logic and reasoning that leads to belief in creationism.
 
Well the creationists are dangerous on two fronts. One stream of them refuse to believe in global warming, because GHod created the world and also created man, so why would he allow for man to destroy the world? The second stream is that if global warming ends the world, so be it. It's the rapture, where all good protestants will ascend to heaven and be reborn. There is something odd going on in America, which has been a technological and scientific powerhouse. This oddity is a rejection of science. The RWRNJ are justifying their economic interests i.e. investments in fossil fuels, by turning to their crank religious beliefs as justification. As Max Weber showed, Protestantism is the spirit of capitalism.
 
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I think you banging your head against the wall with this topic.

The fallacies of intelligent design are seen by some as a test of faith.

The real beauty is in the unpicking of nature itself I am a big fan of Stephen Jay Goulds essays.

I was fortunate enough to be graduating when he was awarded an honorary doctorate from my uni. He gave a beautiful lecture afterwards which was marred by religious nuts asking boneheaded questions.

Despite having his energy sapped his while life by that crowd he was at least armed with impeccable manners and tied the feckers up in knots.

He was a proper evolutionary biologist and I feel more comfortable with his views than Dawkins.

Essentially Gould has natural selection acting on the individuals foremost where Dawkins would have the forces acting on the populations gene pool aforefront.
 
Just seen this but had I have read this before the first person posted in response to the OP @scaramanga would've been about 1/3 favourite without doubt.
 
Just coincidentally, I read today about a 'museum' in Montana dedicated to creationism. It's funded by some Tea Party millionaire crank. One of the 'exhibits' is a dinosaur being ridden by a human, like a cowboy rides a horse.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Just coincidentally, I read today about a 'museum' in Montana dedicated to creationism. It's funded by some Tea Party millionaire crank. One of the 'exhibits' is a dinosaur being ridden by a human, like a cowboy rides a horse.
Click to expand...

Of course it is... #rollseyes


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Anyone who denies evolution needs to have a look at my Jack Russell and explain to me why you'd never see any of his kind running about 500 years ago.

Evolution of all these types of dogs are proof that not only does evolution exist but that we ourselves can influence it if we choose to do so.

Usually people who deny evolution will then say that micro-evolution exists but macro doesn't. But one can't exist without the other.

I do find it puzzling though that we still haven't been able to find the proposed ape like ancestor that us and chimps are descended from.
 
Craig_J said:
Anyone who denies evolution needs to have a look at my Jack Russell and explain to me why you'd never see any of his kind running about 500 years ago.

Evolution of all these types of dogs are proof that not only does evolution exist but that we ourselves can influence it if we choose to do so.

Usually people who deny evolution will then say that micro-evolution exists but macro doesn't. But one can't exist without the other.

I do find it puzzling though that we still haven't been able to find the proposed ape like ancestor that us and chimps are descended from.
Click to expand...
Evolution doesn't work like that.

The simplified way to think about evolution is lie a branching tree where every split has a neat join. That's not how evolution really works - it's more like a bramble bush.

We've found plenty of ancestors that chimps and us are descended from - just further up the branch than you're looking for.
 
Craig_J said:
Anyone who denies evolution needs to have a look at my Jack Russell and explain to me why you'd never see any of his kind running about 500 years ago.

Evolution of all these types of dogs are proof that not only does evolution exist but that we ourselves can influence it if we choose to do so.

Usually people who deny evolution will then say that micro-evolution exists but macro doesn't. But one can't exist without the other.

I do find it puzzling though that we still haven't been able to find the proposed ape like ancestor that us and chimps are descended from.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies...doing a bit of philosophy at home..only for general interest.
A good point about the Jack Russel.Aren't pedigree dogs deliberately bred though?

I also cannot doubt Evolution. Adam and Eve maybe is a metaphorical story.The thing is ,is their Intelligence that created the Evolution progress.and the Universe.

There is a 2hour or so video I started to watch yesterday by Stephen Hawkin's. Pretty scary really, as the camera zooms in on his eyes . Its called IIRC There's is no GHod,or words to that effect.I have to to see the other side of the coin! Even though he is a Brilliant thinker there could be volumes of knowledge we have not discovered.Things we still do not know or understand.
The way I see it is..what's the point of everything if there is no meaning to life!
Well to my mind. tTo say there isn't a meaning, , that is sad,and must be the biggest understatement ever. That's personally how I feel.
Sorry about some of the grammar...you see I never went to grammar school did I.
;);)
 
We are Tottenham said:
Thanks for the replies...doing a bit of philosophy at home..only for general interest.
A good point about the Jack Russel.Aren't pedigree dogs deliberately bred though?

I also cannot doubt Evolution. Adam and Eve maybe is a metaphorical story.The thing is ,is their Intelligence that created the Evolution progress.and the Universe.

There is a 2hour or so video I started to watch yesterday by Stephen Hawkin's. Pretty scary really, as the camera zooms in on his eyes . Its called IIRC There's is no GHod,or words to that effect.I have to to see the other side of the coin! Even though he is a Brilliant thinker there could be volumes of knowledge we have not discovered.Things we still do not know or understand.
The way I see it is..what's the point of everything if there is no meaning to life!
Well to my mind. tTo say there isn't a meaning, , that is sad,and must be the biggest understatement ever. That's personally how I feel.
Sorry about some of the grammar...you see I never went to grammar school did I.
;);)
Click to expand...

Indeed. By evolution I don't mean natural evolution. I highly doubt that without human intervention there would be any place in the animal kingdom for an over excitable scruff that barks at the door all day. We as humans are able to speed the process up but the fact that in just a few thousand years we can breed mighty wolves into all sorts of shapes and sizes that we see today I think is point enough.

Over the course of half a million years humans could probably turn dogs into something you'd never guess was related to a dog in the first place.

Only difference is out in the wild it's a slower drip-drip effect as opposed to humans purposefully manipulating the changes.

I genuinely believe that the closest thing this universe will ever get to Gods is what our ancestors will become in a million years from now, assuming we don't obliterate ourselves with nukes of course.
 
scaramanga said:
Evolution doesn't work like that.

The simplified way to think about evolution is lie a branching tree where every split has a neat join. That's not how evolution really works - it's more like a bramble bush.

We've found plenty of ancestors that chimps and us are descended from - just further up the branch than you're looking for.
Click to expand...

Also important to note there is no built in concept of improvement/progress which is a conceit scara likes to play on.

That is a fruit fly with a hundreds million generations of selection must surely be better adapted to their environment than my us who have 10000x fewer generations.
 
We are Tottenham said:
Thanks for the replies...doing a bit of philosophy at home..only for general interest.
A good point about the Jack Russel.Aren't pedigree dogs deliberately bred though?

I also cannot doubt Evolution. Adam and Eve maybe is a metaphorical story.The thing is ,is their Intelligence that created the Evolution progress.and the Universe.

There is a 2hour or so video I started to watch yesterday by Stephen Hawkin's. Pretty scary really, as the camera zooms in on his eyes . Its called IIRC There's is no GHod,or words to that effect.I have to to see the other side of the coin! Even though he is a Brilliant thinker there could be volumes of knowledge we have not discovered.Things we still do not know or understand.
The way I see it is..what's the point of everything if there is no meaning to life!
Well to my mind. tTo say there isn't a meaning, , that is sad,and must be the biggest understatement ever. That's personally how I feel.
Sorry about some of the grammar...you see I never went to grammar school did I.
;);)
Click to expand...

There is no point, you are an accident.
 
johnola said:
Also important to note there is no built in concept of improvement/progress which is a conceit scara likes to play on.

That is a fruit fly with a hundreds million generations of selection must surely be better adapted to their environment than my us who have 10000x fewer generations.
Click to expand...
That depends on mutation rates too though. I don't know how much more or less likely a fruit fly is to mutate than a person.

You're right to say that there is no inherent cause for improvement. All changes are random, and over thousands of iterations some prove to be beneficial to survival and/or breeding and stick.
 
scaramanga said:
That depends on mutation rates too though. I don't know how much more or less likely a fruit fly is to mutate than a person.

You're right to say that there is no inherent cause for improvement. All changes are random, and over thousands of iterations some prove to be beneficial to survival and/or breeding and stick.
Click to expand...

I often wonder if flys will eventually evolve to not walk all over my TV screen and force me to kill them.
 
We are Tottenham said:
Thanks for the replies...doing a bit of philosophy at home..only for general interest.
A good point about the Jack Russel.Aren't pedigree dogs deliberately bred though?

I also cannot doubt Evolution. Adam and Eve maybe is a metaphorical story.The thing is ,is their Intelligence that created the Evolution progress.and the Universe.

There is a 2hour or so video I started to watch yesterday by Stephen Hawkin's. Pretty scary really, as the camera zooms in on his eyes . Its called IIRC There's is no GHod,or words to that effect.I have to to see the other side of the coin! Even though he is a Brilliant thinker there could be volumes of knowledge we have not discovered.Things we still do not know or understand.
The way I see it is..what's the point of everything if there is no meaning to life!
Well to my mind. tTo say there isn't a meaning, , that is sad,and must be the biggest understatement ever. That's personally how I feel.
Sorry about some of the grammar...you see I never went to grammar school did I.
;);)
Click to expand...

There being no GHod doesn't mean that there's no meaning. It just means we have to find our own meaning, through science, arts, literature, conversation, philosophy and all the other tools we as humans have available to us. There's plenty of meaning to be found in a world without religion, to claim otherwise is just ignorance. Go dress up in a clown costume, head down to your local children's hospital and brighten their day, you'd have done more in terms of finding meaning in your life than decades of prayer ever will.

As Carl Sagan and many others have pointed out, we don't only live in the universe - we are a part of the universe. You are a way the universe examines and experiences itself. Billions of years of elements being forged in the hearts of stars only to be spread across the universe in the blasts of those stars going supernova. Billions of years of matter amassing to create new stars, planets and moons. A trickle of a start from chemistry to life, a quiet ramping up of what became biology. Then again billions of years of evolution winding through various forms. 99.9% of the species that existed now extinct, but always new life. It's wrong to see us as the pinnacle of that, but we as humans undeniably added something new to that mix. A mindful presence of mind, the ability to ask where did we come from and what's the meaning of it all.

There is more meaning in realizing just how wonderful it is that we can ask those questions than any of the false man made Gods the preachers have lied to us about. All of the claims of meaning from religion are unjustified and likely to be wrong.

johnola said:
Also important to note there is no built in concept of improvement/progress which is a conceit scara likes to play on.

That is a fruit fly with a hundreds million generations of selection must surely be better adapted to their environment than my us who have 10000x fewer generations.
Click to expand...

Punctuated equilibrium. When an organism is sufficiently adapted to a stable environment it will stay fairly stable, potentially for a very long time. Then changes in the environment creates periods of relatively quick evolutionary change.

That being said it's true that we're not particularly suited to our environment. I live in Norway, trust me when I say I'm horribly suited to the natural environment around me. But we change our environment, we do that much quicker than we can evolve.
 
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