Mathys Tel

[revlis]

I think the single biggest issue we have is that there is no consistency, and that sides have to spend the first 5 minutes trying to get the measure of how a particular ref is going to ref the game that day. Some refs, however, do have bias. And some players attract bias thanks to whirlwinds in social media. I remember the amount of times a full-speed Bale was clipped and went flying, only for me (and others) to be told to stop protecting divers and cheats. There WERE times when Bale would go to ground, however in my view that was because there were many times when he simply was not protected. Maddison gets whacked all the time....I'll stop LOL!

I agree with both points (I said in another post that there's a definitely bias for and against certain players/certain types of players). But I just don't see how this online discourse leads anywhere good. It's the same phenomenon as incels, the manosphere and all those other awful online places. Echo chambers where nonsense isn't challenged, festers and then becomes the dominant narrative.

 

[Raziel]

I agree with both points (I said in another post that there's a definitely bias for and against certain players/certain types of players). But I just don't see how this online discourse leads anywhere good. It's the same phenomenon as incels, the manosphere and all those other awful online places. Echo chambers where nonsense isn't challenged, festers and then becomes the dominant narrative.

Something has to be done, this isn't an imaginary or self invented problem.

Ideally the PL, clubs and fans would realize this hurts the brand, the game and just general enjoyment. With that in mind, the focus would be on consistency with hard penalties for VAR errors (I can live with on field errors, VAR looking at the Tel tackle for 4 mins and saying some utter nonsense about the speed of tackle should be a suspension for those in VAR room). Unfortunately the tribal nature of fans (like Leeds fans who have been playing whataboutism ever since, trying to claim they should have had a penalty and Porro sent off, instead of understanding "we won, it went our way, we should still ask for better decisions")

At this level, every advantage (or at least making sure you are not disadvantaged) is critical, someone calculated (not sure how correct but perspective is worth it) that last season with right calls, Spurs would have been between 12th-15th and the Scum would have been 5th. We cannot just let it slide. We know from Scum, United and Pool behaviour in the past that public pressure works (regardless of if we like the approach).

Personally, if I was the club, I designate someone else (not RDZ to avoid recrimination) to release statements consistently with researched data whenever a decision goes against us. I'd find friends in the media and provide them comparisons, data, highlight any scenario where it looks like Spurs have been wronged. I'd also consider putting together the last 5 years (nonsense stuff about the last away penalty awarded to Spurs was Harry Kane), the stats on how several refs have questionable records against Spurs (statistically relevant deviations between what they give Spurs vs. our opposition) and have a legal conversation with PMGOL, something along the line of Spurs is being damaged financially by your continued brick decisions and we are considering legal action.

 

[Muttley]

Personally, if I was the club, I designate someone else (not RDZ to avoid recrimination) to release statements consistently with researched data whenever a decision goes against us. I'd find friends in the media and provide them comparisons, data, highlight any scenario where it looks like Spurs have been wronged. I'd also consider putting together the last 5 years (nonsense stuff about the last away penalty awarded to Spurs was Harry Kane), the stats on how several refs have questionable records against Spurs (statistically relevant deviations between what they give Spurs vs. our opposition) and have a legal conversation with PMGOL, something along the line of Spurs is being damaged financially by your continued brick decisions and we are considering legal action.

Been saying this for a long time. Get someone on our bench that sits there with the ipad and has major optics to the Sky TV cameras. Get them to commentarise the referees performance after the event and put a scoring system in place. Publish it via the official Spurs channels and through platforms like YouTube. Share the key data like the video clips relating to which law was applied. Educate fans.

- referee's performance against the laws of the game (the most important KPI by a long way
- referee's decision making on the top X incidences in the game
- referee's likely impact on the outcome of the game based on the refereeing
- season average on referee's decisions being made
- identify where laws of the game aren't working and should go for IFAB for review.

This should not be about beating up referees. It's about being objective and calling things out. That referee might do a stunning job and get praised to high heaven. However, we don't see so much of that at the moment and most likely it will put intense pressure on Webb's incopmetent team as it will start negative.

I would be proud of my club if they grasped the nettle and drove big change management in refereeing by doing these sorts of proactive things.

 

[johnaliola]

Been saying this for a long time. Get someone on our bench that sits there with the ipad and has major optics to the Sky TV cameras. Get them to commentarise the referees performance after the event and put a scoring system in place. Publish it via the official Spurs channels and through platforms like YouTube. Share the key data like the video clips relating to which law was applied. Educate fans.

- referee's performance against the laws of the game (the most important KPI by a long way
- referee's decision making on the top X incidences in the game
- referee's likely impact on the outcome of the game based on the refereeing
- season average on referee's decisions being made
- identify where laws of the game aren't working and should go for IFAB for review.

This should not be about beating up referees. It's about being objective and calling things out. That referee might do a stunning job and get praised to high heaven. However, we don't see so much of that at the moment and most likely it will put intense pressure on Webb's incopmetent team as it will start negative.

I would be proud of my club if they grasped the nettle and drove big change management in refereeing by doing these sorts of proactive things.

Bully referees ?

 

[Raziel]

Bully referees ?

What do you think SAF did for 20 years?

 

[Bishop]

Been saying this for a long time. Get someone on our bench that sits there with the ipad and has major optics to the Sky TV cameras. Get them to commentarise the referees performance after the event and put a scoring system in place. Publish it via the official Spurs channels and through platforms like YouTube. Share the key data like the video clips relating to which law was applied. Educate fans.

- referee's performance against the laws of the game (the most important KPI by a long way
- referee's decision making on the top X incidences in the game
- referee's likely impact on the outcome of the game based on the refereeing
- season average on referee's decisions being made
- identify where laws of the game aren't working and should go for IFAB for review.

This should not be about beating up referees. It's about being objective and calling things out. That referee might do a stunning job and get praised to high heaven. However, we don't see so much of that at the moment and most likely it will put intense pressure on Webb's incopmetent team as it will start negative.

I would be proud of my club if they grasped the nettle and drove big change management in refereeing by doing these sorts of proactive things.

Part of the problem with your crusade is that ultimately it's all still largely subjective. If you read the laws of the game, they are not that detailed as to how you should adjudicate every instance so what you're calling for isn't really possible. What referees have is guidance that they undertake every summer and frequently during the season but because this also not set in stone what is considered as an infraction can and has changed at times throughout a season and context is always considered. I'm sorry but I think what you're asking for is something just isn't possible within the structure of the game as it is.

 

[revlis]

Unfortunately the tribal nature of fans (like Leeds fans who have been playing whataboutism ever since, trying to claim they should have had a penalty and Porro sent off, instead of understanding "we won, it went our way, we should still ask for better decisions")

You just summed up the issue without even realising it!

 

[DaveT316]

This might be an unpopular idea but surely the answer is AI. Put 000s (000,000s?) of incidents and outcomes into a blender, create a model and then judge the big decisions based on that. Simple and consistent, which is what I feel we’re crying out for.

 

[glasgowspur]

Something has to be done, this isn't an imaginary or self invented problem.

Ideally the PL, clubs and fans would realize this hurts the brand, the game and just general enjoyment. With that in mind, the focus would be on consistency with hard penalties for VAR errors (I can live with on field errors, VAR looking at the Tel tackle for 4 mins and saying some utter nonsense about the speed of tackle should be a suspension for those in VAR room). Unfortunately the tribal nature of fans (like Leeds fans who have been playing whataboutism ever since, trying to claim they should have had a penalty and Porro sent off, instead of understanding "we won, it went our way, we should still ask for better decisions")

At this level, every advantage (or at least making sure you are not disadvantaged) is critical, someone calculated (not sure how correct but perspective is worth it) that last season with right calls, Spurs would have been between 12th-15th and the Scum would have been 5th. We cannot just let it slide. We know from Scum, United and Pool behaviour in the past that public pressure works (regardless of if we like the approach).

Personally, if I was the club, I designate someone else (not RDZ to avoid recrimination) to release statements consistently with researched data whenever a decision goes against us. I'd find friends in the media and provide them comparisons, data, highlight any scenario where it looks like Spurs have been wronged. I'd also consider putting together the last 5 years (nonsense stuff about the last away penalty awarded to Spurs was Harry Kane), the stats on how several refs have questionable records against Spurs (statistically relevant deviations between what they give Spurs vs. our opposition) and have a legal conversation with PMGOL, something along the line of Spurs is being damaged financially by your continued brick decisions and we are considering legal action.

Whataboutism, arsenal fans going on about the "penalty" against hull. If this is a foul then arsenal are never winning another game of football as long as Arteta is in charge and they would not have won the PL last season.
They do exact same thing in both boxes everytime the ball is played in, hold until the ball is played then let go.

 

[Bishop]

Whataboutism, arsenal fans going on about the "penalty" against hull. If this is a foul then arsenal are never winning another game of football as long as Arteta is in charge and they would not have won the PL last season.
They do exact same thing in both boxes everytime the ball is played in, hold until the ball is played then let go.

Fans are not unbiased, we see and remember our injustices but rarely pay much attention to the times we are the receiving the benefit of the doubt.

Refs should be beyond this but they are humans and humans can and will perceive largely identical scenarios differently depending upon preconceived notions, reactions, context ie. game state or even just their emotional state.


VAR or no VAR I don't believe it's ever going to be possible for referees across the breadth of even a single league let alone multiple competitions and even inter country tournaments to deliver internally consistent decisions.

The best you can get is probably to go down the Fergie and Arteta route and just moan, complain and pressure the refs so that those conditional factors are looked at in your favour whenever a decision does have to be made.

 

[SubZero]

Was just listening to VFTL and they talked about (and maybe they knew something on background) how the players may have felt that they weren’t getting protected by the referee, and ended up deciding to protect themselves.

It’s actually the only thing I think explains just how sharp the drop off is in the second half, especially after such a good run. And also why RDZ called out the experienced players because he needs them to set the example, and had prepared the squad for a physical game all week. On the other hand from the players POV I can see that if they see Tel getting seriously injured and nothing being done, as well as Porro getting punished for pulling his foot out of the tackle and winning the ball, why they decided to protect their own bodies. Especially with international commitments this week.

It’s a tough one. In an ideal world our players are bastards and don’t get bullied by the physicality, but I do understand that there are limits and the refs have to protect them. The line is surely a player going off injured, it is still baffling to me that this doesn’t rise to the level of endangering the safety of the player.

I was baffled, not only by the lack of at least a booking, but most of all by the comments made by both during and after the incident. No malice? Tel "too quick"? To me it looked like he jumped in, especially on the reverse angle replay. It wasn't a step, it was a headless and dangerous lunge, regardless of intent to hurt or not.

But for the umpteenth time, it's the inconsistency and uneven playing field that really does my head in, and it's seriously starting to affect my interest in football altogether.

 

[elyid]

Anyone know how long he’s out for?

 

[Muttley]

Part of the problem with your crusade is that ultimately it's all still largely subjective. If you read the laws of the game, they are not that detailed as to how you should adjudicate every instance so what you're calling for isn't really possible. What referees have is guidance that they undertake every summer and frequently during the season but because this also not set in stone what is considered as an infraction can and has changed at times throughout a season and context is always considered. I'm sorry but I think what you're asking for is something just isn't possible within the structure of the game as it is.

But that would be part of it. That was my exact bullet 5.

If you take the Bentancur vs Palmer incidences, you see an over-rotation by IFAB on the head vs the rest of the body. Bentancur was petulant and got 3 matches. Palmer was thuggery and got a yellow. In my concept, the laws would be brought up on screen and reasoning given why the laws aren't worded well. It's called being proactive. Now if PGMOL / ProRef all the way up to FIFA / IFAB don't appreciate this proactive approach then that is a problem with their organization culture, not Spurs. That can also be a discussion point. We've had many digs from lots of football stakeholders about the THFC culture. What's the difference?

As an FYI, I actually did go and read the actual laws of the game about the Bents vs Palmer incidences. I'd like to meet the person that wrote them. We could have a kickaround in the garden, and afterwards they can have another go at writing them properly.

 

[Muttley]

Part of the problem with your crusade is that ultimately it's all still largely subjective. If you read the laws of the game, they are not that detailed as to how you should adjudicate every instance so what you're calling for isn't really possible. What referees have is guidance that they undertake every summer and frequently during the season but because this also not set in stone what is considered as an infraction can and has changed at times throughout a season and context is always considered. I'm sorry but I think what you're asking for is something just isn't possible within the structure of the game as it is.

I also want to take your point about "subjectivity". Personally, I think we have a problem where the laws are written and the game is officiated based on 80-90% of decisions being subjective. The entire "did a referee make a CLEAR and OBVIOUS" error was the massive reason we got into this mess. If FIFA had just admitted that there is probably less than 10% of incidences (if that) where a ref could struggle using the laws to make a clean decision, then football fans would accept that aided with technology they are applying common sense, Nothing wrong with that. The problem is they can't even make clean decisions, aided with tech, and applying the laws that have the slightest bit of sbujectivity about them.

Nobody is saying this stuff is easy but right now it has hit rock bottom in my opinion.

 

[johnaliola]

What do you think SAF did for 20 years?

And did that improve decision making?