The *WHEN* we go down thread

[metalgear]

I think Levy has big responsibility in appointing Frank and listening to Lange on that, but the saving grace that doesn’t sour his reputation completely in my mind is that if Levy wasn’t removed, Frank would have been gone in November. Levy may have been a blocker in us truly progressing into title challengers, but he never would have let it get like this.

This whole idea of showing patience is a decidedly Vinai thing, and with Lange’s prior relationship with Frank you know he would have been advocating for him too. They bear huge responsibility for this.

I am going to be fascinated by the end of season comms from the club. I already thought Vinai’s thinly veiled pops at Levy were pathetic, because whatever fails Levy has…nothing is as bad as keeping a guy in place who had no respect / buy in from the squad and was sending us on a path to relegation.

agree with this view and also of the view that dezerbi will call out player failings which will spell the end for lange. just hope we don't get relegated, because if dezerbi gets the DoF he wants then, its easy to get an above mid table quality attack assembled and I would expect the team to massively improve in terms of standings.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

As crazy as it seems, I wouldn’t be surprised if both VV and JL are both still in their current positions next season even if we are in the Championship. That’s the level of indecisiveness we are currently stuck with from the “decision makers”.

I'm expecting that Vinai will keep his job but less sure about Lange, especially with a new DOF supposedly coming in - although that might change if we are relegated.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I'm expecting that Vinai will keep his job but less sure about Lange, especially with a new DOF supposedly coming in - although that might change if we are relegated.

I think Lange will be publicly hung on his statement in January that we didn't need to bring in players (or words to that effect in that club interview he did). That kills his credibility publicly completely and gives weasels like Vinai a sacrificial lamb to blame his own shortcomings on.

We go down, Lange is gone without a shadow of a doubt for me.

 

[johnola]

Who honestly gives a flying **** about the executives?

 

[Legohamster]

I think Lange will be publicly hung on his statement in January that we didn't need to bring in players (or words to that effect in that club interview he did). That kills his credibility publicly completely and gives weasels like Vinai a sacrificial lamb to blame his own shortcomings on.

We go down, Lange is gone without a shadow of a doubt for me.

He should have been sacked the moment the window shut

In his defence (I think he's GHod awful) he's only able to sign players with the awful budget he's given by the owners, whose arrogance believed it wasn't needed.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I have actually mentioned this 46 game thing before. A subset of that is playing 23 cup finals at our stadium. There will be a few teams that have played us before dropping into the Championship. The rest will be licking their licks at a Spurs scalp and will be really up for any game at our sparkling stadium. It could start to think like our annual West Ham games where it has been clear it is their cup final and not ours. So we get poor results.

I'm less worried about your leadership problem though. When you remove leaders from a changing room new ones appear. They feel less intimidated once the seats have been vacated. They probably never felt the full love for that leader anyway. I have a feeling this has been the case for years at the club. Take Hojbjerg as an example. A so called leader that was walking over the half way line when you were either sprinting back or watching from the bench. Probably never mentioned by the manager even though it would absolutely have been if you had done it. So resentment builds and then the player leaves. That empowers you to become the midfield leader. I think there is a lot of this at Spurs. It was definitely the case 3-5 years ago where we saw these double standards. I think it is still there now.

The most important thing to fix is the culture. That means it is not OK to lose any football match. Ange made it OK, Frank made it OK and we cannot afford RDZ to make it OK just because Tavistock and ENIC make it OK. It's the single biggest thing to solve for. Way more important than how good players are or tactics and formations. It's a disease at our club that has got worse in recent years.

This… almost every team over the past 2 years has enjoyed their visit to our £billion stadium and our home record since April 2024 is the worst of any PL team

Played 38 Won 9 Drawn 7 Lost 22 For 57 Against 69 Diff -12 Points 34

Those teams in the Championship are going to absolutely relish the chance to take advantage of whatever rudderless excuse of a squad we have left (after the likes of Romero and Dragusin move to Madrid this summer) and keep us in this negative spiral until we end up doing the double drop like Leicester and Luton

 

[Muttley]

This… almost every team over the past 2 years has enjoyed their visit to our £billion stadium and our home record since April 2024 is the worst of any PL team

Played 38 Won 9 Drawn 7 Lost 22 For 57 Against 69 Diff -12 Points 34

Those teams in the Championship are going to absolutely relish the chance to take advantage of whatever rudderless excuse of a squad we have left (after the likes of Romero and Dragusin move to Madrid this summer) and keep us in this negative spiral until we end up doing the double drop like Leicester and Luton

Is there a 3rd Madrid team then? How will Dragu play for RM or AM

 

[Welshspur60]

I think Lange will be publicly hung on his statement in January that we didn't need to bring in players (or words to that effect in that club interview he did). That kills his credibility publicly completely and gives weasels like Vinai a sacrificial lamb to blame his own shortcomings on.

We go down, Lange is gone without a shadow of a doubt for me.

He ll be gone for sure. Even if by some miracle we stay up, hes toast.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

He ll be gone for sure. Even if by some miracle we stay up, hes toast.

Yeah there’s absolutely no way Lange remains. I also think it’s interesting that the only stories I hear about him on player signings is that someone else needed to step in to get the deal across the line. Coupled with the fact that he picked a terrible manager for us and seemed to make every possible incorrect move in January in terms of sales and buys…I’m actually amazed he got the job with us. My understanding was that he didn’t even have as senior a role with Villa. So somehow he lucked into a bigger job with a bigger club, probably because we were obsessed with finding someone who could wow us with data.

Vinai will definitely use Lange as the sacrificial lamb, but the buck stops with him on the day to day and he allowed this season to go on far too long in the wrong direction. His buck passing to Levy won’t wash, and people shouldn’t let it.

 

[kendoddsdadsdog]

Is there a 3rd Madrid team then? How will Dragu play for RM or AM

Rayo Vallecano. They're also probably above his level though.

 

[Muttley]

Yeah there’s absolutely no way Lange remains. I also think it’s interesting that the only stories I hear about him on player signings is that someone else needed to step in to get the deal across the line. Coupled with the fact that he picked a terrible manager for us and seemed to make every possible incorrect move in January in terms of sales and buys…I’m actually amazed he got the job with us. My understanding was that he didn’t even have as senior a role with Villa. So somehow he lucked into a bigger job with a bigger club, probably because we were obsessed with finding someone who could wow us with data.

Vinai will definitely use Lange as the sacrificial lamb, but the buck stops with him on the day to day and he allowed this season to go on far too long in the wrong direction. His buck passing to Levy won’t wash, and people shouldn’t let it.

I think Levy is getting a free ride at the moment. His hands are very dirty based on how he run the club since 2019. We probably wouldn't have had a Vinai if Levy had performed in role.

I'm not in any way trying to absolve the other 2 though. There are many root causes to this conundrum.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think Levy is getting a free ride at the moment. His hands are very dirty based on how he run the club since 2019. We probably wouldn't have had a Vinai if Levy had performed in role.

I'm not in any way trying to absolve the other 2 though. There are many root causes to this conundrum.

I do agree, I think Levy not only reached his limit with us but also because he wasn’t evolving actually was sending us further down the table. There was a time we would have always bounced back to the top 6 but I think others did overtake us. Even with that in mind, I don’t think we’d ever be in this situation under him.

I think he deserves a lot of criticism for appointing Frank. Alongside appointing Jose he’s responsible for letting go our two most successful managers of the modern era and getting the replacement wrong. He just didn’t get how to take us forward.

I snapped on my support of Levy 2-3 years ago, which was big for me considering my username was based on my fandom of him. But he doesn’t plummet as much in my mind as Vinai and Lange because he simply would not have let it get like this. Even though I think appointing Frank after what the squad went through last season was a bad move and someone with the information he has access to having been inside the club should have been able to foresee that.

 

[Muttley]

I do agree, I think Levy not only reached his limit with us but also because he wasn’t evolving actually was sending us further down the table. There was a time we would have always bounced back to the top 6 but I think others did overtake us. Even with that in mind, I don’t think we’d ever be in this situation under him.

I think he deserves a lot of criticism for appointing Frank. Alongside appointing Jose he’s responsible for letting go our two most successful managers of the modern era and getting the replacement wrong. He just didn’t get how to take us forward.

I snapped on my support of Levy 2-3 years ago, which was big for me considering my username was based on my fandom of him. But he doesn’t plummet as much in my mind as Vinai and Lange because he simply would not have let it get like this. Even though I think appointing Frank after what the squad went through last season was a bad move and someone with the information he has access to having been inside the club should have been able to foresee that.

I know you're not in the hotseat but what would Levy had done differently for us not to be in this position? To me, this one feels like the 2018 transfer window when everyone blamed Poch for no signings and Levy even stated that his manager was happy with his squad. I lost my brick with Levy at that point. His financial modelling of the multi-year finances and the absolute ineptitude of the recruitment team that he assembled was at the heart of why we made no progress. His procrastination on transfer deals meaning Poch could never get off to a smooth start in pre-season. Levy's pattern of bloated squads and then major culls with a pattern of 20 years worth of history of doing it. The constant pattern of signing 6 0r 7 players when you need 2 or 3 to get to the next level. His appointment of DoF's and managers.

Where do I stop with Levy's football operational ineptitudes?

I'm just baffled as to what Levy would have done when it is a culture and process that he set in his organisation that we have the hangover from.

He's guilty as charged in my mind.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I know you're not in the hotseat but what would Levy had done differently for us not to be in this position? To me, this one feels like the 2018 transfer window when everyone blamed Poch for no signings and Levy even stated that his manager was happy with his squad. I lost my brick with Levy at that point. His financial modelling of the multi-year finances and the absolute ineptitude of the recruitment team that he assembled was at the heart of why we made no progress. His procrastination on transfer deals meaning Poch could never get off to a smooth start in pre-season. Levy's pattern of bloated squads and then major culls with a pattern of 20 years worth of history of doing it. The constant pattern of signing 6 0r 7 players when you need 2 or 3 to get to the next level. His appointment of DoF's and managers.

Where do I stop with Levy's football operational ineptitudes?

I'm just baffled as to what Levy would have done when it is a culture and process that he set in his organisation that we have the hangover from.

He's guilty as charged in my mind.

I agree with you completely, I would frame it as the things that made Levy a blocker in our ultimate progesss (a failure to build on a set of foundations that were right for and unique to Spurs) were also the reason he would never have let it get this bad this season. He would have sacked Frank, and probably been more aggressive in January, and we probably would have ended up top half.

As it is, we have Vinai who makes a virtue of patience and Lange who’s a mate of Frank. And so they stick with him far longer than is appropriate, Vinai clearly doesn’t get this club and probably doesn’t get the players, and was probably leaning on Lange, who was probably just going to stick up for his mate.

Levy for better and worse would have been more decisive. I think he needed to show more patience with managers who deserved it, but he absolutely would have fired into the sun a manager that was completely draining the confidence of the players before our eyes.

 

[Welshspur60]

Yeah there’s absolutely no way Lange remains. I also think it’s interesting that the only stories I hear about him on player signings is that someone else needed to step in to get the deal across the line. Coupled with the fact that he picked a terrible manager for us and seemed to make every possible incorrect move in January in terms of sales and buys…I’m actually amazed he got the job with us. My understanding was that he didn’t even have as senior a role with Villa. So somehow he lucked into a bigger job with a bigger club, probably because we were obsessed with finding someone who could wow us with data.

Vinai will definitely use Lange as the sacrificial lamb, but the buck stops with him on the day to day and he allowed this season to go on far too long in the wrong direction. His buck passing to Levy won’t wash, and people shouldn’t let it.

We are the absolute experts at making the wrong decisions .

 

[Welshspur60]

West Ham and Leeds will probably play out a beneficial goaless draw to see them both stay up.

I honestly think we will be down before the last weekend.

 

[metalgear]

I honestly think we will be down before the last weekend.

ah... spurs giving new meaning to life to my tired old soul.
fastest ever implosion for any epl club : CL final > Europa final > Championship
thanks ENIC, Levy, Vinai, Lange !

 

[NaijaSpurs]

The good thing about already accepting relegation is that when we conceded that late goal yesterday I was not surprised, I was not stressed, I did not lose my temper. It is the pain that kills you, but now that I have accepted the situation dealing (I did that quite some time ago) with the loss is easy.

Now I just keep focusing on who I think will be in the squad next season.

Obviously we will lose players, but 27/28 we need to be playing PL football again. Maddison and hopefully Kulu will be real leaders next season

 

[Muttley]

I agree with you completely, I would frame it as the things that made Levy a blocker in our ultimate progesss (a failure to build on a set of foundations that were right for and unique to Spurs) were also the reason he would never have let it get this bad this season. He would have sacked Frank, and probably been more aggressive in January, and we probably would have ended up top half.

As it is, we have Vinai who makes a virtue of patience and Lange who’s a mate of Frank. And so they stick with him far longer than is appropriate, Vinai clearly doesn’t get this club and probably doesn’t get the players, and was probably leaning on Lange, who was probably just going to stick up for his mate.

Levy for better and worse would have been more decisive. I think he needed to show more patience with managers who deserved it, but he absolutely would have fired into the sun a manager that was completely draining the confidence of the players before our eyes.

I actually think our January would have been exactly the same under Levy. When you look at the entire PL, there was only one transfer of note and that was Semenyo to City. We were involved in 2 of the other top 5 or 6 deals. Only one year ago our recruitment team under Levy were getting lambasted for not acting early in January in the middle of an injury crisis, only bringing in Kinsky early Jan and the waiting around to the end of the window for Tel and Danso. I have no reason to believe this Jan under Levy would have yielded a different outcome. An outcome that made a difference. The deals weren't there and our brand (to players) had fallen so low under Levy it was becoming harder and harder to convince them to join us.

Levy probably would have acted earlier on Frank. Shame he could never hire the right managers in the first place though. That was the actual root cause for why he had to keep firing the gun. Frank was no different.

 

[Mrs Vert]

You know results today and 2mw is not gonna go our way