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What was the trigger in our downward trend?

It’s a fair argument but we were consistently dogbrick at home and even some of the away wins defied the underlying numbers. A collapse in that away form was always coming while the habit of losing at home, started under Ange, continued unabated.

There was every chance, all other things being equal, that even if our away form normalised that our home form could also improve. Unfortunately we had a terrible manager who put out a team that gave the home fans absolutely nothing to cheer for (quite literally in the attempts stats) and I think that was a big part of why our home form continued to be bad.

To go from the parade to the sheer anxiety we’ve seen this season from both the players and fans was not the continuation of a trend but a very real thing to do with what was happening this season. The players weren’t bought in, and didn’t know how to fully execute, and the fans could see it.
 
I just don’t agree. When we needed to win last year to secure our safety, we basically did. Then we had the opportunity this year for a fresh start. Then we started the season pretty well. Why, if it is all a hangover from last season, did we actually start quite well?
It's in adversity that the truth reveals itself.

I'm not saying it's a hangover I'm saying that losing over a period of time has been normalised. All our metrics trend downwards. We picked up points through attrition earlier in the season and that's how we won the cup. Any variance from that has seen us spanked.
 
I just don’t agree. When we needed to win last year to secure our safety, we basically did. Then we had the opportunity this year for a fresh start. Then we started the season pretty well. Why, if it is all a hangover from last season, did we actually start quite well?
There were no serious challengers to our premier league status due to the 3 clubs below us being so poor so it looks like all the gambles went right. But underlying that was a team that was on a downward trend in the league, 22 games lost 60+ goals conceded. Europe masked the league (like it has done this year) so the legend of Ange burns bright.

If Ange had started this season without Madison, Kulu and Solanke with little emphasis on defensive solidity I am certain the results would have continued from last season.
 
It's in adversity that the truth reveals itself.

I'm not saying it's a hangover I'm saying that losing over a period of time has been normalised. All our metrics trend downwards. We picked up points through attrition earlier in the season and that's how we won the cup. Any variance from that has seen us spanked.

Fair enough. I’m not denying it’s the trend. I just think there have been various inflection points in the last two years with context around them that explain some of it, and also provide moments as to where we could have turned that trend around but didn’t.
 
There were no serious challengers to our premier league status due to the 3 clubs below us being so poor so it looks like all the gambles went right. But underlying that was a team that was on a downward trend in the league, 22 games lost 60+ goals conceded. Europe masked the league (like it has done this year) so the legend of Ange burns bright.

If Ange had started this season without Madison, Kulu and Solanke with little emphasis on defensive solidity I am certain the results would have continued from last season.

I think if Ange had started with RKM and Simons he would have gotten more out of them than Frank did. We also probably wouldn’t have sold Brennan leaving us with zero right wingers to play. I also think he would have had Romero and VDV for more games and gotten results with them too. Probably not had a vendetta against Tel. In general I think the squad would have been more bought in to what he was asking them to do. I’m not saying, given everything that has happened to us and the league, that it all would have been rosey, but I think it would have been far better than what we saw.

Essentially I view Ange’s tenure as pre and post horrendous injury crisis. And then post Europa League prioritisation.

My question on Ange was always whether we would have gotten exposed more on set pieces this year. But I still think overall we’d have been in a far better position. Even just considering that his system and not having an unprecedented injury crisis means that we would likely still be able to flat track bully enough teams at home to at least be mid table.
 
I think if Ange had started with RKM and Simons he would have gotten more out of them than Frank did. We also probably wouldn’t have sold Brennan leaving us with zero right wingers to play. I also think he would have had Romero and VDV for more games and gotten results with them too. Probably not had a vendetta against Tel. In general I think the squad would have been more bought in to what he was asking them to do. I’m not saying, given everything that has happened to us and the league, that it all would have been rosey, but I think it would have been far better than what we saw.
Impossible to know for sure. But what is sinking us primarily ATM is we are shipping goals without the ability to reply. Maybe Ange would have started off outscoring the opposition but given Tudor has come in and those players haven't suddenly transformed, I have to wonder what Ange could have done differently especially as he had Tel for a season and struggled to get him performing consistently to the level we need.
 
Impossible to know for sure. But what is sinking us primarily ATM is we are shipping goals without the ability to reply. Maybe Ange would have started off outscoring the opposition but given Tudor has come in and those players haven't suddenly transformed, I have to wonder what Ange could have done differently especially as he had Tel for a season and struggled to get him performing consistently to the level we need.

He was forced to play Tel upfront alone during the injury crisis and then barely used him in the team when the first choice was selected once we started prioritising the Europa.

Tudor has come in when confidence is on the floor and unity is seemingly completely shot. He has his own set of special unique circumstances to deal with.
 
I think if Ange had started with RKM and Simons he would have gotten more out of them than Frank did. We also probably wouldn’t have sold Brennan leaving us with zero right wingers to play. I also think he would have had Romero and VDV for more games and gotten results with them too. Probably not had a vendetta against Tel. In general I think the squad would have been more bought in to what he was asking them to do. I’m not saying, given everything that has happened to us and the league, that it all would have been rosey, but I think it would have been far better than what we saw.

Essentially I view Ange’s tenure as pre and post horrendous injury crisis. And then post Europa League prioritisation.

My question on Ange was always whether we would have gotten exposed more on set pieces this year. But I still think overall we’d have been in a far better position. Even just considering that his system and not having an unprecedented injury crisis means that we would likely still be able to flat track bully enough teams at home to at least be mid table.

I don't think his tenure can be boxed off like that. For me regardless of the buy in, the quality of the squad would be the same, and he'd still be without Son, Kulu and Maddison. I don't think there is a manager about that can get the % shift needed to turn our players from what they are into something better. First half today we was at near our max output and couldn't score, not down to tactics or belief (you saw what lack of belief looked like in the second half) but purely from us not having something to turn nearly into a goal. Neither Muani or Simons has shown they can do anything close to what Kane, Son, Alli, Kulu etc and now even Kudus could.

The only thing that is going to get us out is players returning from injury which is why I think that Kudus coming back is huge for us. If he can hit the ground running we have a chance. If Kulu was to come back (I know he isn't) those two returning would be enough to convince me we'd stay up.
 
Was it one specific thing? Or was it a perfect storm of injuries, lack of investment, lack of foresight/strategy?

For me it's a few things:

- Not finding a suitable replacement for Dembele
- Shocking purchases in the 19/20 season
- Not backing Poch and bringing Mourinho in

The injuries we have are obviously contributing to our relegation fight, but I strongly believe with players fit we'd be mid-table. Certainly not the heady heights of where we were 5 or 6 years ago.
Not backing Poch. Downwards trajectory was committed in that x2 windows with no signings.

Then its the answer Levy and execs chose to the question:
- Do we back Poch with a painful rebuild
OR
- Do we try and squeeze a few more seasons out of this jaded squad with a new manager?

Been on an express elavator to hell ever since GOING DOWN!
 
Not backing Poch. Downwards trajectory was committed in that x2 windows with no signings.

Then its the answer Levy and execs chose to the question:
- Do we back Poch with a painful rebuild
OR
- Do we try and squeeze a few more seasons out of this jaded squad with a new manager?

Been on an express elavator to hell ever since GOING DOWN!

For once we agree

You don't have Kane for 10 years and not plan for his exit (on Levy)

You don't do the same for Son and pretend Tel is class, which he isn't

You don't also, contrary, oust Levy who despite his faults not have a bad record of upper league finishes without a plan, you also don't get away with saying "it was all his fault" when love or hate it, his last act as Chairman was an EL win, and with all the "we want more" to be faced with relegation, thats poor.

We are going down because 100% we are now the club without form or back bone

The Championship is going to separate the men from the boys
 
I don't think his tenure can be boxed off like that. For me regardless of the buy in, the quality of the squad would be the same, and he'd still be without Son, Kulu and Maddison. I don't think there is a manager about that can get the % shift needed to turn our players from what they are into something better. First half today we was at near our max output and couldn't score, not down to tactics or belief (you saw what lack of belief looked like in the second half) but purely from us not having something to turn nearly into a goal. Neither Muani or Simons has shown they can do anything close to what Kane, Son, Alli, Kulu etc and now even Kudus could.

The only thing that is going to get us out is players returning from injury which is why I think that Kudus coming back is huge for us. If he can hit the ground running we have a chance. If Kulu was to come back (I know he isn't) those two returning would be enough to convince me we'd stay up.

Sure, I don’t disagree with you broadly but whichever way you slice it, no win in 13 games and being a point outside the relegation zone with 7 to play is not ‘what they are’. I think what is happening with the squad to be this bad, this consistently is something way bigger than that.
 
There was every chance, all other things being equal, that even if our away form normalised that our home form could also improve. Unfortunately we had a terrible manager who put out a team that gave the home fans absolutely nothing to cheer for (quite literally in the attempts stats) and I think that was a big part of why our home form continued to be bad.

To go from the parade to the sheer anxiety we’ve seen this season from both the players and fans was not the continuation of a trend but a very real thing to do with what was happening this season. The players weren’t bought in, and didn’t know how to fully execute, and the fans could see it.
I know we fundamentally disagree on this and I do respect your opinion and appreciate your articulation of it. But I do still disagree.

The underlying numbers for our away form were not sustainable. That was clear as day. We won a game 3-0 at Everton. I’ve no idea how. It wasn’t a good performance. Results were miles ahead of performances. The home form could have normalised but there was absolutely no indication it would. From early on under Frank, we looked terrible at home. Bournemouth, Chelsea, Wolves. All poisonous performances. So, bar City away, we’ve been fudging awful all season.

In a collapse this unprecedented, there is no one factor. There is an accumulation of many circumstances that create such a brickshow. Frank deserves quite a bit of blame but I think it’s hard to argue that Ange doesn’t. He brought us from two decades of top half, primarily top 6 finishes, to 17th. It’s a mind boggling drop off. And that trend continued this year. Therefore, for me, Ange has some culpability. Not a lot, but some.
 
There were no serious challengers to our premier league status due to the 3 clubs below us being so poor so it looks like all the gambles went right. But underlying that was a team that was on a downward trend in the league, 22 games lost 60+ goals conceded. Europe masked the league (like it has done this year) so the legend of Ange burns bright.

If Ange had started this season without Madison, Kulu and Solanke with little emphasis on defensive solidity I am certain the results would have continued from last season.

We were the 4th worst team in the league last season. Fact. The 3 teams worse than us have been replaced, so who's to say what our true position is.

The fact we're following up a 17th place finish with a likely 18th place says more than anyhing else what it is to me
 
I know we fundamentally disagree on this and I do respect your opinion and appreciate your articulation of it. But I do still disagree.

The underlying numbers for our away form were not sustainable. That was clear as day. We won a game 3-0 at Everton. I’ve no idea how. It wasn’t a good performance. Results were miles ahead of performances. The home form could have normalised but there was absolutely no indication it would. From early on under Frank, we looked terrible at home. Bournemouth, Chelsea, Wolves. All poisonous performances. So, bar City away, we’ve been fudging awful all season.

In a collapse this unprecedented, there is no one factor. There is an accumulation of many circumstances that create such a brickshow. Frank deserves quite a bit of blame but I think it’s hard to argue that Ange doesn’t. He brought us from two decades of top half, primarily top 6 finishes, to 17th. It’s a mind boggling drop off. And that trend continued this year. Therefore, for me, Ange has some culpability. Not a lot, but some.

I agree, there’s no one factor. And I do always try and see the other side of these debates. I think where I land on Ange is, if we prioritised the Europa, played weaker teams in the league, and then failed to beat Bodo or got utterly spanked in the final, I would have more sympathy for the idea that he normalised a lowering of standards. Because he made a bet, and if he wasn’t able to see through his end of the bargain, we would have been left with nothing, the players would have had nothing to show for it, and I think they would have been asking what it was all for.

As it was, he took the risk and succeeded. And whatever alchemy comes from his mix of inspiration, motivation, training, selection and other decision making, he did actually win. We ended a disastrous season as winners, as a champions league club, and with the players and the fanbase united.

So I think he bought the opportunity for a fresh start this season (be it with him or someone else) And what actually happened was that the players were effectively told last season didn’t mean anything, and they had to climb back up the mountain for someone far less inspirational, playing a far less enjoyable form of football, and who had zero experience of managing a club our size. So when the difficulties came, there was no foundation to fall back on. Because the board destroyed it.

It’s really less a point on Ange for me and more, there has been a lack of understanding of the human beings involved on the pitch and what they needed to be given. I think to go through what they went through, and then be told they have to fully get behind this whole new project that they quickly saw wasn’t going to stand up to scrutiny, it ruined the dynamics. And that’s really the only thing that right now explains a squad being this talented being in such bad form. It’s a human issue, it isn’t one of skill and I don’t believe is one of effort. It’s the intangible that makes a team a team, and we lost it.
 
I agree, there’s no one factor. And I do always try and see the other side of these debates. I think where I land on Ange is, if we prioritised the Europa, played weaker teams in the league, and then failed to beat Bodo or got utterly spanked in the final, I would have more sympathy for the idea that he normalised a lowering of standards. Because he made a bet, and if he wasn’t able to see through his end of the bargain, we would have been left with nothing, the players would have had nothing to show for it, and I think they would have been asking what it was all for.

As it was, he took the risk and succeeded. And whatever alchemy comes from his mix of inspiration, motivation, training, selection and other decision making, he did actually win. We ended a disastrous season as winners, as a champions league club, and with the players and the fanbase united.

So I think he bought the opportunity for a fresh start this season (be it with him or someone else) And what actually happened was that the players were effectively told last season didn’t mean anything, and they had to climb back up the mountain for someone far less inspirational, playing a far less enjoyable form of football, and who had zero experience of managing a club our size. So when the difficulties came, there was no foundation to fall back on. Because the board destroyed it.

It’s really less a point on Ange for me and more, there has been a lack of understanding of the human beings involved on the pitch and what they needed to be given. I think to go through what they went through, and then be told they have to fully get behind this whole new project that they quickly saw wasn’t going to stand up to scrutiny, it ruined the dynamics. And that’s really the only thing that right now explains a squad being this talented being in such bad form. It’s a human issue, it isn’t one of skill and I don’t believe is one of effort. It’s the intangible that makes a team a team, and we lost it.
They are all fair points mate and there’s merit to that argument.

I do think if we go down, there is much more to come out about what’s gone on this season. I think there will be a mini industry from this in terms of books, articles and morbid curiosity about how we handle relegation and The Championship. There are so many angles as to how we find ourselves here. Steady mismanagement since 2018 and gross mismanagement last season and this season. It’s truly mind boggling.

It’ll be a case study for generations to come on cataclysmic mismanagement of a massive sporting organisation.
 
I agree, there’s no one factor. And I do always try and see the other side of these debates. I think where I land on Ange is, if we prioritised the Europa, played weaker teams in the league, and then failed to beat Bodo or got utterly spanked in the final, I would have more sympathy for the idea that he normalised a lowering of standards. Because he made a bet, and if he wasn’t able to see through his end of the bargain, we would have been left with nothing, the players would have had nothing to show for it, and I think they would have been asking what it was all for.

As it was, he took the risk and succeeded. And whatever alchemy comes from his mix of inspiration, motivation, training, selection and other decision making, he did actually win. We ended a disastrous season as winners, as a champions league club, and with the players and the fanbase united.

So I think he bought the opportunity for a fresh start this season (be it with him or someone else) And what actually happened was that the players were effectively told last season didn’t mean anything, and they had to climb back up the mountain for someone far less inspirational, playing a far less enjoyable form of football, and who had zero experience of managing a club our size. So when the difficulties came, there was no foundation to fall back on. Because the board destroyed it.

It’s really less a point on Ange for me and more, there has been a lack of understanding of the human beings involved on the pitch and what they needed to be given. I think to go through what they went through, and then be told they have to fully get behind this whole new project that they quickly saw wasn’t going to stand up to scrutiny, it ruined the dynamics. And that’s really the only thing that right now explains a squad being this talented being in such bad form. It’s a human issue, it isn’t one of skill and I don’t believe is one of effort. It’s the intangible that makes a team a team, and we lost it.
For me that is not his bet to make

Any relationship that ignores the foundations that it depends on, but then tries to sprinkle on great moments as justification is a bad relationship. An absent parent who buys and expensive gift for a child is still a brick parent.

The fan base was in no way united, I was at the Brighton game after the cup win, the mood went from celebration at the start of the game to frustration at the end of it. Mainly because putting the cup final hangover to one side, it was the same old brick. It was only a mountain to climb cause we had fallen that far. I don't really consider vibes and motivation to be foundations that anything long term should be built on. They are both finite, and when they aren't there is when the lack of foundation is exposed. The board have done more than there fare share, but being a team that doesn't know how to win at home, or not lose eventually becomes part of the identity.

The players wasn't told last season didn't matter, they were told that a club of our size and players of their apparent ability should expect to go deep into the cups without being that low in the league. It was last season I stopped going to every game, because I personally found the football a poor watch, it hasn't got any better this season, but it hasn't got any worse either, the quality of football much like the club doesn't generate any emotion in me one way or another, I'm just numb to it.
 
I wonder whether, after all this, Joe Lewis still thinks that his children are serious people, and whether he has any levers he can pull to save them from themselves and return control to Levy.
 
We were the 4th worst team in the league last season. Fact. The 3 teams worse than us have been replaced, so who's to say what our true position is.

The fact we're following up a 17th place finish with a likely 18th place says more than anyhing else what it is to me

And the fact that 2 of the 3 promoted teams this season have already picked up more PL points at home than we’ve managed at nWHL in the past 18 months just emphasises what a historically negative spiral we’ve been locked in 📉

Home PL table since October 2024:

19th
Won 5 Drawn 7 Lost 18 For 42 Against 57 Diff -17 Pts per Game 0.73

Oh well, at least we can continue to taunt those gobby Goons about their lack of silverware even if/when we get relegated…

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For me that is not his bet to make

Any relationship that ignores the foundations that it depends on, but then tries to sprinkle on great moments as justification is a bad relationship. An absent parent who buys and expensive gift for a child is still a brick parent.

The fan base was in no way united, I was at the Brighton game after the cup win, the mood went from celebration at the start of the game to frustration at the end of it. Mainly because putting the cup final hangover to one side, it was the same old brick. It was only a mountain to climb cause we had fallen that far. I don't really consider vibes and motivation to be foundations that anything long term should be built on. They are both finite, and when they aren't there is when the lack of foundation is exposed. The board have done more than there fare share, but being a team that doesn't know how to win at home, or not lose eventually becomes part of the identity.

The players wasn't told last season didn't matter, they were told that a club of our size and players of their apparent ability should expect to go deep into the cups without being that low in the league. It was last season I stopped going to every game, because I personally found the football a poor watch, it hasn't got any better this season, but it hasn't got any worse either, the quality of football much like the club doesn't generate any emotion in me one way or another, I'm just numb to it.

I totally respect your point of view on this. Clearly the decision Ange made was not the right one for a lot of people. I accept that. My personal view is, once the season became a write off in the league, I completely understood that the way to bring some success to the club was to win the Europa, and to do whatever it took to win it. And to be clear, the reason the league became a write off was a horrendous injury crisis like nothing we have ever seen, not because of bad management. But each league loss didn’t bother me as long we were in with a shot of winning the Europa. It was water off a ducks back to me, because I didn’t see how a slog back to 12th was going to do anything for anyone, but I appreciate it wasn’t like that for a lot of other people.

I think though that it’s really important to think about what the players felt about last season. And about the image of Spurs in their minds eye. This is the thing I probably haven’t articulated well enough, but I think it’s so delicate and the reason that we’ve struggled, and the reason that any club struggles when they lose it.

Last season was a ‘thing’, an idea that everyone bought into. Every bit of motivation, every bit of preparation, every bit of self talk that the players gave themselves was that as long as they stick together, they could be winners. It was the theme of the season. To basically say we know we are going through horrible times, but we can come out the other side as champions. They were in the biggest hole, and ended up climbing a mountain that no other Spurs side had climbed in over 40 years. They did it by sticking together, by fighting for each other, and never losing faith. It was faith in what was possible that season, but also why they joined Spurs in the first place. They wanted to become legends for the club, and do something no team in their lifetimes had done. To get their pictures on the walls and live on forever.

And they did that. It was a monumental achievement. And I think it is genuinely still under appreciated how big an achievement it was. To not only do it, but to still be together and never lose faith in each other, the manager, or the entire idea of what being at Spurs meant to them. They actually went and did it. And every decision Ange made was that so he could ultimately ask the players to climb mountains again in the future, but to do it their way, with a set of cultural foundations they all believed in.

I simply think that by sacking Ange, the club put those foundations and that togetherness at massive risk. If they were to sack Ange, the next appointment had to be as close to certain to working out. Because, just like with Poch, the togetherness and the ‘idea’, the belief and the faith, that was the thing that allowed us to compete. And they put it at massive risk. I think that Ange deserved to start the next season, and if by November he was struggling, sack him then. The achievement needed time to breathe, to be recognised. I think the players needed to be allowed to come to terms with the idea that Ange was a moment, but long term something else was required, if that was the decision to be made.

As it was, we made an utterly atrocious appointment. And whatever idea the players had about Spurs, about why they were here, about what they were building towards last season, it was all blown up. They were told that at Spurs they would always be able to be brave, to play football the right way, and they believed in it. And I genuinely believe that is the reason for the struggle. We’ve become a squad with no reason to be here, other than to earn kind of good but not the very best wages. There’s no idea, no identity, no reason for unity.

And that all might not be so bad, were it not for the fact that 1 year ago we so clearly had it. That is the issue. The players went through something together. They had faith in each other. They became winners together. That idea, that thing, was their reason for being united, for being at Spurs. And we willingly destroyed it. We told them that they had to climb a new mountain, where they didn’t have to be brave, where they had to play the percentages, where they will definitely lose games. It’s not justified but is it understandable that a lot of the players probably realised that Spurs was not actually a serious proposition. That we didn’t actually care about progress, about winning things, about competing at the highest level. Or even doing things in a way that most of them buy into, because the idea creates the unity.

Thomas Frank in isolation is not a bad manager. But to appoint someone so uninspiring, as a communicator and as a manager with that style of football, after what the players had before, I think was one of the dumbest decisions a football club has ever made. It is dumb because it’s a symptom of what we have all always known, that our squad is a Frakensteinien mess built for multiple different managers and sporting directors. But also because he was so blatantly uninspiring compared to the last manager. And was therefore unable to create anything close to the unity we had previously benefitted from. He had no ideas to get behind. He was not a good motivator. He was careful, safe and risk averse. And our squad did not buy in.
 
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