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Micky van de Ven

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Agreed wholeheartedly.

And on a separate point to your own, I think it does make the decision to appoint Frank worse on the basis that our best players (Romero and VDV) were wholly unsuited to the kind of football he wanted to play. So even if we were in a ‘good moment’, he probably still would have struggled because he’d have been trying to make aggressive high line specialists play as box defenders, where they were weaker and leaving us more exposed.
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Your point does make me wonder what they actually good at? Because defensively we weren't any good with the high line either.

I also don't know that I agree that Romero is unsuited to box defending, I've seen him do it loads Nd very well for Argentina. The little I saw of him at Atalanta he was lso comfortable box defending. If anything box defending suits his skillset more than defending on the half way line does.
 
Bishop said:
Your point does make me wonder what they actually good at? Because defensively we weren't any good with the high line either.

I also don't know that I agree that Romero is unsuited to box defending, I've seen him do it loads Nd very well for Argentina. The little I saw of him at Atalanta he was lso comfortable box defending. If anything box defending suits his skillset more than defending on the half way line does.
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I think you're probably right.

Romeros flaw is concentration.
Yeah he's fully concentrated but in a tunnel vision type way. Eg 'im super focused on snapping that winger in half'

His 360 degree awareness is poor as we have seen many times.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I think you're probably right.

Romeros flaw is concentration.
Yeah he's fully concentrated but in a tunnel vision type way. Eg 'im super focused on snapping that winger in half'

His 360 degree awareness is poor as we have seen many times.
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I still think Romero's biggest weakness is circumstantial. In the team he currently plays in he has to take too much responsibility and that leaves him unable to be a great defender. His body and mind is in that red zone in key moments in matches. Now stick Romero in a team with Ledders or Jan alongside him, prime Hugo behind him and a Kyle Walker to his right then everything will seem a lot calmer. Stick a prime Dembele with either Wanyama or Dier in front of him and you'll see a way better player.

Additionally, Romero is a victim of the rubbish culture at Spurs. He wouldn't dream of slippering a Brazilian if was playing under Fergie in a 90's Utd. He'd get the same treatment as Stam and Becks did if he ever got above his station. If we had that winning culture and total professionalism approach that we've seen under guys like Pep and Klopp then good luck misbehaving in that culture.

I think this thing is multi-dimensional actually. Romero needs to now lead by example and be one of the guys that is setting the new culture. Ditto with VDV. Porro is perhaps the closest to having it.
 
Muttley said:
I still think Romero's biggest weakness is circumstantial. In the team he currently plays in he has to take too much responsibility and that leaves him unable to be a great defender. His body and mind is in that red zone in key moments in matches. Now stick Romero in a team with Ledders or Jan alongside him, prime Hugo behind him and a Kyle Walker to his right then everything will seem a lot calmer. Stick a prime Dembele with either Wanyama or Dier in front of him and you'll see a way better player.

Additionally, Romero is a victim of the rubbish culture at Spurs. He wouldn't dream of slippering a Brazilian if was playing under Fergie in a 90's Utd. He'd get the same treatment as Stam and Becks did if he ever got above his station. If we had that winning culture and total professionalism approach that we've seen under guys like Pep and Klopp then good luck misbehaving in that culture.

I think this thing is multi-dimensional actually. Romero needs to now lead by example and be one of the guys that is setting the new culture. Ditto with VDV. Porro is perhaps the closest to having it.
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The idea is that top players make other players look better, they don't need top players to make them look better. If Ledders was CB in this same team, he would still look an absolute rolls royce of a player next to VDV or Danso.

Romero plays the same now as he did when he first came here, he takes a lot of risks many of which don't come off in the same way they do in the slower paced Italian league or internationals. It's always been hit and miss with him - On his day he can be a rock, but there are far too many occasions he loses his head and can't be relied on....
 
Muttley said:
I still think Romero's biggest weakness is circumstantial. In the team he currently plays in he has to take too much responsibility and that leaves him unable to be a great defender. His body and mind is in that red zone in key moments in matches. Now stick Romero in a team with Ledders or Jan alongside him, prime Hugo behind him and a Kyle Walker to his right then everything will seem a lot calmer. Stick a prime Dembele with either Wanyama or Dier in front of him and you'll see a way better player.

Additionally, Romero is a victim of the rubbish culture at Spurs. He wouldn't dream of slippering a Brazilian if was playing under Fergie in a 90's Utd. He'd get the same treatment as Stam and Becks did if he ever got above his station. If we had that winning culture and total professionalism approach that we've seen under guys like Pep and Klopp then good luck misbehaving in that culture.

I think this thing is multi-dimensional actually. Romero needs to now lead by example and be one of the guys that is setting the new culture. Ditto with VDV. Porro is perhaps the closest to having it.
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All very good points/observations I agree with.
 
harr1984 said:
The idea is that top players make other players look better, they don't need top players to make them look better. If Ledders was CB in this same team, he would still look an absolute rolls royce of a player next to VDV or Danso.

Romero plays the same now as he did when he first came here, he takes a lot of risks many of which don't come off in the same way they do in the slower paced Italian league or internationals. It's always been hit and miss with him - On his day he can be a rock, but there are far too many occasions he loses his head and can't be relied on....
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Fair points as well.
 
harr1984 said:
The idea is that top players make other players look better, they don't need top players to make them look better. If Ledders was CB in this same team, he would still look an absolute rolls royce of a player next to VDV or Danso.

Romero plays the same now as he did when he first came here, he takes a lot of risks many of which don't come off in the same way they do in the slower paced Italian league or internationals. It's always been hit and miss with him - On his day he can be a rock, but there are far too many occasions he loses his head and can't be relied on....
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He's not a top player so he's not able to transcend circumstances. He is a good player and on his day can be a very good one, but yeah he's not in the elite of the elite top class.
 
Bishop said:
Your point does make me wonder what they actually good at? Because defensively we weren't any good with the high line either.

I also don't know that I agree that Romero is unsuited to box defending, I've seen him do it loads Nd very well for Argentina. The little I saw of him at Atalanta he was lso comfortable box defending. If anything box defending suits his skillset more than defending on the half way line does.
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I think when we played Romero and VDV together and actually tried to play a proper version of Ange ball, not in the middle of an injury crisis, we were actually pretty good defensively. The ball stayed away from our goal largely, and we played the game in the opposition half.

I don’t disagree that Romero can be a better box defender. But I think there are instances like the goal at Burnley where he rushes to close down and leaves a gaping hole in the penalty box that they score from.

I also do agree though with the points above that if there was a better overall culture and more cohesion in the team right now, he would look better whether it be a high line or lower down. But I think there’s such high confusion and such low confidence in the team that everyone is made to look worse as a result of it.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I think when we played Romero and VDV together and actually tried to play a proper version of Ange ball, not in the middle of an injury crisis, we were actually pretty good defensively. The ball stayed away from our goal largely, and we played the game in the opposition half.

I don’t disagree that Romero can be a better box defender. But I think there are instances like the goal at Burnley where he rushes to close down and leaves a gaping hole in the penalty box that they score from.

I also do agree though with the points above that if there was a better overall culture and more cohesion in the team right now, he would look better whether it be a high line or lower down. But I think there’s such high confusion and such low confidence in the team that everyone is made to look worse as a result of it.
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The stats aren't as good as you're feelings remember. In 23/24 with both fit we conceded 1.4 goals per game. Over a 38 game season that's 53 goals conceded. It's still brick for a team aiming to finish in the top 4.

Besides the stats I watched those matches with my own eyes, we were never good defensively and never looked comfortable with the high line. VDV looked comfortable because of his pace but as a team we were all at sea, constantly getting overloaded at the back post as everyone was running back towards goal and people would lose their man in the chaos.
 
Bishop said:
The stats aren't as good as you're feelings remember. In 23/24 with both fit we conceded 1.4 goals per game. Over a 38 game season that's 53 goals conceded. It's still brick for a team aiming to finish in the top 4.

Besides the stats I watched those matches with my own eyes, we were never good defensively and never looked comfortable with the high line. VDV looked comfortable because of his pace but as a team we were all at sea, constantly getting overloaded at the back post as everyone was running back towards goal and people would lose their man in the chaos.
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There were plenty of games where we looked very comfortable with the high line. Conceding is probably somewhat expected under a manager that plans to score at least 3 in response but I watched those games too, and there were plenty where we looked quite cohesive when we had a reasonably fit squad. But I respect your ‘feelings’ on the matter too.

Overall, my point was that I don’t think Micky and Romero were set up for success, being asked to transition to Frank ball. In much the same way that Dier and Sanchez probably weren’t best suited to Jose ball. And then when you add on the utter failure to get anything out of Simons, Tel, it was just bad all around. But I agree with the general sentiment that because the team overall has been low on culture and confidence, everyone is looking worse.

I’ve had my frustrations with Micky recently. I thought his pull back for the penalty against Palace was a ridiculous error for a professional to make. But I do think we as fans have started to read in to the psychology of individuals a bit too much, when I think the real cause of all of this is that the culture has been destroyed and it’s not a great environment for anyone to be their best.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
There were plenty of games where we looked very comfortable with the high line. Conceding is probably somewhat expected under a manager that plans to score at least 3 in response but I watched those games too, and there were plenty where we looked quite cohesive when we had a reasonably fit squad. But I respect your ‘feelings’ on the matter too.

Overall, my point was that I don’t think Micky and Romero were set up for success, being asked to transition to Frank ball. In much the same way that Dier and Sanchez probably weren’t best suited to Jose ball. And then when you add on the utter failure to get anything out of Simons, Tel, it was just bad all around. But I agree with the general sentiment that because the team overall has been low on culture and confidence, everyone is looking worse.

I’ve had my frustrations with Micky recently. I thought his pull back for the penalty against Palace was a ridiculous error for a professional to make. But I do think we as fans have started to read in to the psychology of individuals a bit too much, when I think the real cause of all of this is that the culture has been destroyed and it’s not a great environment for anyone to be their best.
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Dier and Sanchez weren't suited to any ball. 😅🤣

I'm not one for evaluating psychology from the sidelines tbh, it relies to much in perception and a lot of biases. I only really judge the football on the pitch tbh, all the stuff is just fluff to me.

Regarding the defense let's just agree to disagree, I think we every rarely looked settled and the goals conceded numbers were just unsustainable. We had to change that and it just never happened, being too easy to score against (and we were and still are) is just a death knell for sustained success.
 
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