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American politics

Just a reminder of how ICE Federal Agents were stopping people without cause including off duty Minnesota police and it would seem by the colour of their skin.

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Assume Trump will be on the pitch shaking hands at the USA's first WC match in LA v Paraguay , will players have the bottle to refuse to shake hands with FIFA's winner of their Peace Prize.
 
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robp135 said:
Because he would not had been shot if he didn’t have the gun.

Those agents would not have been there if it were not for lack of police support.
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Yup, if only these protestors respected the law like the MAGA’s freedom fighters…

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robp135 said:
He was shot within about 0.00004 seconds of the gun being removed and the agent that fired the shots won’t have known, likely believing he was reaching for the gun.

Again there is a difference between possessing a gun and possessing a gun while committing a crime. He was committing a crime by impending law enforcement.

These issues with ICE are not happening in most US Cities. They are exclusive to cities where the Mayor, State Governor are hostile towards them and proactively support aggregators.

There have been more enforced deportations in Texas, Florida, Arizona but you don’t see any issues and that’s because the police are on side and they shut down these “protests”
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That's because ICE agents haven't been sent in en masse to most cities. It's only a handful of cities that's been done to. Funnily enough they are cities that are Democrat lead. I'm sure that it's just a coincidence and not done to stock anger.
 
robp135 said:
He was shot within about 0.00004 seconds of the gun being removed and the agent that fired the shots won’t have known, likely believing he was reaching for the gun.

Again there is a difference between possessing a gun and possessing a gun while committing a crime. He was committing a crime by impending law enforcement.

These issues with ICE are not happening in most US Cities. They are exclusive to cities where the Mayor, State Governor are hostile towards them and proactively support aggregators.

There have been more enforced deportations in Texas, Florida, Arizona but you don’t see any issues and that’s because the police are on side and they shut down these “protests”
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The only one reaching for anything is you.
 
DubSpur said:
That's because ICE agents haven't been sent in en masse to most cities. It's only a handful of cities that's been done to. Funnily enough they are cities that are Democrat lead. I'm sure that it's just a coincidence and not done to stock anger.
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Pretty much every major city is democrat lead even in red states. That’s just the demos of America.

But they have been going on mass to most cities. The highest number of deportations have been in Texas. It doesn’t make the headlines because they are not clashing with organiased resistance allowed to operate freely due to no police support.
 
SteveAWOL said:
Yup, if only these protestors respected the law like the MAGA’s freedom fighters…

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Gonna have a hard time finding me saying anything in support of the Jan 6 folk.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Then thats terrible training again, because his colleague had his gun and Pretti was on the ground face down with officers on his back.

As for the "commiting a crime" that isn't fact, its still being determined if he was actually commiting a crime.

Being at a protest, filming and stepping in to protect someone who was pushed to the ground becomes very Grey on what actual crime he was commiting. Interference isn't a crime
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I don’t dispute it’s terrible training. But that is part of the issue with the local police being told to stand down as it force Border Patrol who are not typically trained for this type of engagement to support.

It’s very clear he interfered with law enforcement. He wasn’t a protestor either he was an agitator and while the video of him from the week prior does not justify what happened it proves that to be the case.
 
Rafa87 said:
Hmm, no sorry, I think it’s fairly clear from the video posted above.

There’s no issue with him bringing the gun to the protest, it’s legal. So it actually doesn’t matter in this case that he had it with him unless there is any evidence he intended to use it. Since he was shot, no evidence has been produced that this was his intention.

The actual shooting itself, he has an open hand, and a phone in the other, he tries to stick up for someone being pushed and help them off the floor, he’s taken to the floor himself and is in a position where technically yes, he COULD reach for a gun, but I can’t see any sign that he does. He’s vastly outnumbered and let’s face it this is actually helping his cause as he probably wants to show how heavy handed ICE can be.

Someone takes his gun off him, and whilst you’re right, he’s shot quickly after, I think the threat assessment is appalling, and I think k he gets shot because someone shouts gun numerous times. To me, that ICE bloke then takes his chance, seems it will give him plausible deniability that he heard someone shout gun and that’s why he fired. The other guy who then puts numerous bullets in to him once he’s down, for me, is just taking his chance to shoot someone.

That for me is the problem with these ICE ‘officers’. They strike me as being a bit like when you see minimum wage security guys dressing in tactical gear as if the police weren’t recruiting. They want to wear military kit and balaclava up as it means they can go around rucking and on the off chance they might get to shoot someone, and what makes it better is in America they probably won’t get charged with anything because it will be covered up.

Their own president comes out and says “a gunman attacked agents” despite there being video evidence that it simply didn’t happen. As someone who’s been on both sides of this, I’m sorry, but there’s no lawful reason to shoot the bloke here and that’s from someone who completely understands why people end up being shot by law enforcement. I’m not always a fan at all of protestors, but this bloke didn’t need to die and I find it wild to the point of ridiculous the amount of people who ignore clear evidence to support the people doing it (and I don’t mean you by that, but the wider debate around this).
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I am sorry but you have a fundamental lack of understanding on how US gun laws work.

If I were to break in and burgle someone’s home and the have a concealed firearm, but there is no engagement with the homeowner, I would still be charged with possession of a firearm as part of the overall charge.

As soon as he commits crime, which he does by interfering with law enforcement, he waives that 2nd amendment right. The law treats the presence of a firearm as dramatically increasing risk and harm, even if the gun itself is legally owned and carried.
 
robp135 said:
Because he would not had been shot if he didn’t have the gun.

Those agents would not have been there if it were not for lack of police support.
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You must take only a fleeting interest in American politics are being wilfully ignorant.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and lean into the former.
 
robp135 said:
I don’t dispute it’s terrible training. But that is part of the issue with the local police being told to stand down as it force Border Patrol who are not typically trained for this type of engagement to support.

It’s very clear he interfered with law enforcement. He wasn’t a protestor either he was an agitator and while the video of him from the week prior does not justify what happened it proves that to be the case.
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There are fine and blurred lines in being an agitator and its not always a case that being an agitator is a criminal offence. Take away the conflation of what happened the week before, I would argue that filming and protecting the woman who was pushed isn't classic agitator activity, I would also strongly argue that it didn't warrant the initial interactions let alone being shot.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
There are fine and blurred lines in being an agitator and its not always a case that being an agitator is a criminal offence. Take away the conflation of what happened the week before, I would argue that filming and protecting the woman who was pushed isn't classic agitator activity, I would also strongly argue that it didn't warrant the initial interactions let alone being shot.
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I totally agree that it did not warrant him being shot and killed.

But it cannot be disputed that he put himself at risk. I’d imagine that Alex Pretti himself held a view that ICE and Border Patrol are poorly trained and overly aggresive in their interactions with immigrants and US Citizens protesting. Yet he still made the decision to bring the gun and interact with law enforcement.
 
robp135 said:
I totally agree that it did not warrant him being shot and killed.

But it cannot be disputed that he put himself at risk. I’d imagine that Alex Pretti himself held a view that ICE and Border Patrol are poorly trained and overly aggresive in their interactions with immigrants and US Citizens protesting. Yet he still made the decision to bring the gun and interact with law enforcement.
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I think there are as many other factors that put him at risk other than himself
 
robp135 said:
I am sorry but you have a fundamental lack of understanding on how US gun laws work.

If I were to break in and burgle someone’s home and the have a concealed firearm, but there is no engagement with the homeowner, I would still be charged with possession of a firearm as part of the overall charge.

As soon as he commits crime, which he does by interfering with law enforcement, he waives that 2nd amendment right. The law treats the presence of a firearm as dramatically increasing risk and harm, even if the gun itself is legally owned and carried.
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That’s fine you’re right I dont fully understand the gun laws, but to me to say he “interefered with them” is just a cheap way of finding an offence he committed.

When you watch that video, he shouts a it in protest of the way in which they are treating another person, these ICE blokes then go and start shoving another person and he steps in to help them. If that gets put up that he’s causing an offence and “interfering with them” then I’m sorry, but that’s incredible cowardice from the legal system in America and basically covering up.

That just means the minute someone goes to a protest they commit an offence as there will always be a “they shouted” “they swore” “they called me a mean name”.

Regardless, I’ll take your word on it as you are obviously more clued up on American gun laws than me. However, to me, that’s nothing other than a trigger happy ICE agent who murdered that man because he wanted to shoot someone, and took a cheap opportunity to do so. There was no threat, any half decent risk assessment would have told him that when he has that many people around him. The man died because those agents WANTED to kill him, not because he was a threat or committing a serious offence. I know murder requires the intent as well, but honestly at this point, I think these ICE agents go out looking for any reason available. They’re playing soldiers.
 
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Rafa87 said:
That’s fine you’re right I dont fully understand the gun laws, but to me to say he “interefered with them” is just a cheap way of finding an offence he committed.

When you watch that video, he shouts a it in protest of the way in which they are treating another person, these ICE blokes then go and start shoving another person and he steps in to help them. If that gets put up that he’s causing an offence and “interfering with them” then I’m sorry, but that’s incredible cowardice from the legal system in America and basically covering up.

That just means the minute someone goes to a protest they commit an offence as there will always be a “they shouted” “they swore” “they called me a mean name”.

Regardless, I’ll take your word on it as you are obviously more clued up on American gun laws than me. However, to me, that’s nothing other than a trigger happy ICE agent who murdered that man because he wanted to shoot someone, and took a cheap opportunity to do so. There was no threat, any half decent risk assessment would have told him that when he has that many people around him. The man died because those agents WANTED to kill him, not because he was a threat or committing a serious offence. I know murder requires the intent as well, but honestly at this point, I think these ICE agents go out looking for any reason available. They’re playing soldiers.
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Same as Renee Good, who was called “a f ucking bitch” (i.e. a woman with an opinion) by an ICE agent after being repeatedly shot at point-blank range.
 
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