Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Gutter Boy]

Managers needing time is not an irrational or illogical stance to take half way through a managers first season

We're getting worse though. Like his predecessor, his best games were his first handful

 

[glorygloryeze]

Firing Ange is still the right call (we would be in relegation zone instead of 12th as seen at Forest).

But, if you remember well, I didn't want Frank, I said he was too direct (funny how that turned out), his football was awful, that you can lose too many games at Bretford and still be ok.

Glasner has the potential to be the next Conte, and someone will take that risk, I would have no problem with him (the football will hardly be any worse even if it won't be consistently pretty and results will be better. With the CB's we have, bring in Vuscovic and you actually have players for his system), I didn't and still don't rate Silva.

My point then, is the same as now, most managers in leagues earn 1M-3M/year, Spurs can pay up to 13M/year (Ange was earning 8X Iraola's salary as example). This board quite honestly is made up of nutters (meant in the nicest way possible) who think people worry about career trajectory when being offered a potential 18 years of salary for 18 months of work in worse case (my calculation last year of if we hired Iraola and he failed), news flash, 90% (and that's being kind) will take the money. And to stick with Iraola, lesson to be leant, he would have been in the running for Spurs, United, Chelsea at this time last year, that moment is gone. Add in, we have owners who claim there is money to invest? add in, the trophy hoodoo is gone, no incoming manager needs to win a trophy now, yes the job is attractive. Carlo Ancelotti went to fudging Everton, let that sink in.

My issue continues to be
- You cannot let standards slip, this club is a top 6 club, 20+ years of results says so, if a manager cannot achieve that minimum bar, they need to go, this also sends a message to the players, Ange was your buddy? well you fudged up and got him fired.
- There are people in the club who's fudging job is to have that next/better manager/player lined up, if they can't do that or they consistently make the wrong choices, then they have to go as well.

Again, where is a single, rational defense of Frank that isn't
- Managers need time or
- Who else would come in

If that's the only defense, it tells the entire story

I agree with a good chuck of that, but then do you not see how the club and its hieracrchy are every bit to blame for our predicament?
If Sours can pay such wages to get more or less any manager they'd want, why can't it be the other way round and they pay the equivalents to get players much more 'ready' and 'world class'?

Even looking at Ange (i agreed with his sacking but also agreed in the end that they let his EL campaign come to a conclusion before they did so etc), what does it tell you about the club's ambitions that after narrowly missing out on top 4 they went and mainly bought him a bunch of 'kids' instead of players ready to come into the first team straight away in the summer of 2024?
Why can we have an approach of pay towards getting more or less any manager but not the same re players?
At what point do we task a manager to work with great tools than task them we squeezing more blood out of stones?

Do you think we'd get better than Frank if we sacked him tomorrow? And, in your opinion, why do you think we got/settled on Frank in the first place after sacking Ange?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Ange's first year was markedly better than his 2nd in league, and that's part of what people need to evaluate with Frank.

Ange, Jose, Conte all had better first years than 2nd, so there is actually no evidence it will get better.

Poch had a better 2nd, 3rd and 4th year than his first...similar re Redknapp.
So it's not all one-way traffic

 

[billyiddo]

We're getting worse though. Like his predecessor, his best games were his first handful

Progress isn't always linear.

 

[Mcfee]

Firing Ange is still the right call (we would be in relegation zone instead of 12th as seen at Forest).

But, if you remember well, I didn't want Frank, I said he was too direct (funny how that turned out), his football was awful, that you can lose too many games at Bretford and still be ok.

Glasner has the potential to be the next Conte, and someone will take that risk, I would have no problem with him (the football will hardly be any worse even if it won't be consistently pretty and results will be better. With the CB's we have, bring in Vuscovic and you actually have players for his system), I didn't and still don't rate Silva.

My point then, is the same as now, most managers in leagues earn 1M-3M/year, Spurs can pay up to 13M/year (Ange was earning 8X Iraola's salary as example). This board quite honestly is made up of nutters (meant in the nicest way possible) who think people worry about career trajectory when being offered a potential 18 years of salary for 18 months of work in worse case (my calculation last year of if we hired Iraola and he failed), news flash, 90% (and that's being kind) will take the money. And to stick with Iraola, lesson to be leant, he would have been in the running for Spurs, United, Chelsea at this time last year, that moment is gone. Add in, we have owners who claim there is money to invest? add in, the trophy hoodoo is gone, no incoming manager needs to win a trophy now, yes the job is attractive. Carlo Ancelotti went to fudging Everton, let that sink in.

My issue continues to be
- You cannot let standards slip, this club is a top 6 club, 20+ years of results says so, if a manager cannot achieve that minimum bar, they need to go, this also sends a message to the players, Ange was your buddy? well you fudged up and got him fired.
- There are people in the club who's fudging job is to have that next/better manager/player lined up, if they can't do that or they consistently make the wrong choices, then they have to go as well.

Again, where is a single, rational defense of Frank that isn't
- Managers need time or
- Who else would come in

If that's the only defense, it tells the entire story

Yep, there was a poll running here for months on who people would prefer as the next manager. Frank was bottom of the list iirc. Until it became obvious he was going to be the chosen one, at which point everyone piled in and said he was the right choice (including me, I can resist everything except a bandwagon.)

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Right, I don't see us trying to implement the type of specialised gameplan that requires a skillset that good players cannot do well in.

I think the current gameplan could be executed by most players as it's hardly technical, expansive, nuanced.

In fact (imo) we have numerous players that could handle a far greater technical, expansive and nuanced gameplan ...

Of course, that could be to come.
5 months doesn't answer that question one way or other.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You think there is any significant amount of our fanbase that is "we want Frank?" I don't, I think

- There is a significant get this fudger out of my club now group, includes home and away fans and online
- There are those that are either "well we should give him more time or players and see" or "we shouldn't keep doing the manager merry go round"

I see no "Frank is the guy to take us forward", I actually think the fanbase is as aligned as it has been in years but there is no focal point.

I don't see how Frank can survive, away fans booing and singing for players long gone, asking for their money back, every home game has lots of seats up for resale, cup games not selling well, apparently dressing room not happy with Johnson being forced out.

@Finney Is Back said we got rid of the numpties in charge, I'd say with the last numpty in charge at least we know a decision would be made, hopefully these numpties don't think dead man walking to end of season is a solution.

The numpties I was referring to were those that wanted Poch out (though to be fair that group did include Levy).

 

[Raziel]

I agree with a good chuck of that, but then do you not see how the club and its hieracrchy are every bit to blame for our predicament?
If Sours can pay such wages to get more or less any manager they'd want, why can't it be the other way round and they pay the equivalents to get players much more 'ready' and 'world class'?

Even looking at Ange (i agreed with his sacking but also agreed in the end that they let his EL campaign come to a conclusion before they did so etc), what does it tell you about the club's ambitions that after narrowly missing out on top 4 they went and mainly bought him a bunch of 'kids' instead of players ready to come into the first team straight away in the summer of 2024?
Why can we have an approach of pay towards getting more or less any manager but not the same re players?
At what point do we task a manager to work with great tools than task them we squeezing more blood out of stones?

Do you think we'd get better than Frank if we sacked him tomorrow? And, in your opinion, why do you think we got/settled on Frank in the first place after sacking Ange?

100% agree that the owners are to blame, and I remain amazed (must be fudging slow myself) and how they have pulled the wool over our fanbase, threw Levy under the bus and got away with "we had nothing to do with the money restriction decisions of the last 25 years"

Ange got found out mate, how else to say it kindly? he took a squad that came 5th, added Solanke, Danso, Bergvall, Tel, Gray and Odobert and got worse. The players told him to change for Europa (see VDV interview), and seeing the 4-2-4 with mid block work in Europe, he took nothing onboard for league, he goes to another club and proves he is incapable of adjusting once the league figured him out. And again, if Ange had come 12th (with just the kids) and won the Europa, he'd still be here.

To answer the two questions

- 100%, I think any manager who is willing to allow this group of players to attack and give them some basic patterns of play will do better (again, I'm not arguing top 4, just not bottom half)
- I think Frank earned his shot (like Potter before him), it was a calculated risk, I think we made the Nuno mistake, a likable guy, likely a safe pair of hands that could get us back into Europe via league (raised the floor if not the ceiling) and with continued investments (Stadium money) in two years the next guy would have even more to work with.

It's almost funny, the Frank decision is a similar decision to some players we have bought, we just should have pushed the boat out a little more, can i say it? dared a little more, and in not doing it, it's backfired.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think the difference with Palace was that we actually raised our level in possession in specific moments of the match to the point it felt like we were all over them and were more likely to get the next goal. The strategy seemed similar (although I did feel we had some good moments in possession quite early in the game at the Gtech…not sure if by design or just the players saw the openings and went for it, there was a lovely one touch move out of defence through the middle quite early on, think it ultimately ended with Gray’s attempted curler) but the quality in possession against Brentford was extremely lacking for the most part.

And it was simple passes from players that easily have the quality to do better. Porro was guilty of this even. We’d have a chance to break. And actually it seemed like the team wanted to, rather than horsehoeing it back. But it was like they were out of sync. The run and the pass would be in a different direction.

That’s what really disappointed me about yesterday. I can actually completely get on board with Frank’s project if we see more performances like Palace. I think it’s a good example of what he wants to achieve, and I’ll take true defensive solidity and effective countering in a tough away game. But yesterday was simply not good. The players were bad in possession, when they absolutely had more quality to do better. And I don’t know whether it was an off day, whether Andrews knew too much about Frank and so cancelled him out, or whether the players felt rushed and over eager to do something because they didn’t have much of the ball, and therefore the decision making suffered.

I think the only real difference is that they had played 3 games in a week whereas we’d had 8 days between games. It was only really when Palace’s fatigue became apparent that we got on top.

 

[Muttley]

I think the only real difference is that they had played 3 games in a week whereas we’d had 8 days between games. It was only really when Palace’s fatigue became apparent that we got on top.

It's a fair point. Worth relating that to our midfield going into a game with the only recognised midfield sub being Olusesi. Once Palinha was withdrawn, those remaining guys (including the full-backs) had to dig as deep as ever to keep the work rate up. It's not as though we could call on Udogie, Bergval or Sarr to get some fresh legs.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It's a fair point. Worth relating that to our midfield going into a game with the only recognised midfield sub being Olusesi. Once Palinha was withdrawn, those remaining guys (including the full-backs) had to dig as deep as ever to keep the work rate up. It's not as though we could call on Udogie, Bergval or Sarr to get some fresh legs.

The manager didn’t need to play Gray as the number 10.

 

[Baleforce]

You think there is any significant amount of our fanbase that is "we want Frank?" I don't, I think

- There is a significant get this fudger out of my club now group, includes home and away fans and online
- There are those that are either "well we should give him more time or players and see" or "we shouldn't keep doing the manager merry go round"

I see no "Frank is the guy to take us forward", I actually think the fanbase is as aligned as it has been in years but there is no focal point.

I don't see how Frank can survive, away fans booing and singing for players long gone, asking for their money back, every home game has lots of seats up for resale, cup games not selling well, apparently dressing room not happy with Johnson being forced out.

@Finney Is Back said we got rid of the numpties in charge, I'd say with the last numpty in charge at least we know a decision would be made, hopefully these numpties don't think dead man walking to end of season is a solution.

I think there are some that care more about results than performances, who are up for us being hard to beat.

I want a pragmatist rather than an artist, I want a manager who will do whatever they believe maximises our chance of points in each game.

The idea that Spurs have to play pretty football is an albatross around our neck, 2 league titles in almost 150 years suggests to me it doesn’t work.

I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Frank reminds me of AVB, and I fudging loved him, I hope we don’t hound Frank out in the same way.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

100% spot on. The fans are the main issue with this club, never happy, always chasing total football and winning every week. Until fans get realistic and be happy with what they have then it isn’t gonna change.

Harping back to peak Poch is doing us no favours, its another point all together but that was a pure fluke in terms of recruitment.

Until, say 5 years ago, I never thought it would be the fans that would decay my experience/relationship/connection with our club. But alas....

It should not be about being happy with what they have or on the flip side chasing total football or winning, if not we are (or everything is) brick.....it should be supporting/loving something in no different way than one supports/loves their wife, mum, daughter, son or dog.

This club is the second longest relationship in my life. What builds is a certain level of tolerance, a history of suffering together and sharing beautiful moments, an unconditional love, an unbreakable bond.

The brick you can read every single day (I don't mean on here btw) speaks to none of that....it's near enough the complete opposite. What is the fudging point for these people.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think there are some that care more about results than performances, who are up for us being hard to beat.

I want a pragmatist rather than an artist, I want a manager who will do whatever they believe maximises our chance of points in each game.

The idea that Spurs have to play pretty football is an albatross around our neck, 2 league titles in almost 150 years suggests to me it doesn’t work.

I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Frank reminds me of AVB, and I fudging loved him, I hope we don’t hound Frank out in the same way.

Jeez…. He might be the only one of our last 10 managers I liked less than Frank.

 

[Mikey10]

This is a particularly good listen, I thought.

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[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think the only real difference is that they had played 3 games in a week whereas we’d had 8 days between games. It was only really when Palace’s fatigue became apparent that we got on top.

If you’re right, and you may well be, that’s a black mark against Frank for me for sure.

I’m willing to see if we improve over the course of the season, if only because I’m fed up of the ridiculous spectacles of having Sherwood / Mason / Stellini be drafted in rather than actually try and stick at something long term for once. But performances absolutely have to improve.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I see no "Frank is the guy to take us forward", I actually think the fanbase is as aligned as it has been in years but there is no focal point.

The focal point left 3 months ago

 

[Daisuk]

I feel for Frank on a human level, it can't be easy at the moment.

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[JerusalemMan]

You think there is any significant amount of our fanbase that is "we want Frank?" I don't, I think

- There is a significant get this fudger out of my club now group, includes home and away fans and online
- There are those that are either "well we should give him more time or players and see" or "we shouldn't keep doing the manager merry go round"

I see no "Frank is the guy to take us forward", I actually think the fanbase is as aligned as it has been in years but there is no focal point.

I don't see how Frank can survive, away fans booing and singing for players long gone, asking for their money back, every home game has lots of seats up for resale, cup games not selling well, apparently dressing room not happy with Johnson being forced out.

@Finney Is Back said we got rid of the numpties in charge, I'd say with the last numpty in charge at least we know a decision would be made, hopefully these numpties don't think dead man walking to end of season is a solution.

I'm not significant but I will say that I want Frank and I currently still believe he is the guy to take us forward.

 

[Baleforce]

He needs to stick to what he believes.

He’s the one with the coaching badges and the experience.

The average fan doesn’t understand PL football.