Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
TBF There are people who think Ange was awful and Frank couldn’t beat his side
Even Ipswich managed that
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*** Tottenham Hotspur Vs Forest *** OMT
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
Even Ipswich managed that
Junior19
Danny Murphy
He is not the only issue. But he may be the root issue. Regardless, the buck stops with him.
I didn’t hear the post-match press conference before I heard about what he said on there on The Game is about Glory-pod. But that really riled me up even further. To throw up your hands at 57 minutes, and go “ah, the game is gone” is diabolical. I didn’t find the substitutions logical or inspiring, but I assumed that HE knew what he wanted them to achieve. But clearly not!
There were plenty of things he could have done, to try to change things. Heck, he could even have done plenty by putting the very same three people on, but with a few changes:
Let’s get an overview of the situation: we want to create turnovers higher up the pitch, but we’re unable to play forward in any meaningful way, and our front men are isolated or incapable of holding up the ball. We do however have a very decent long ball passer in Romero, and Porro can also hit a barn door at a certain distance. Ok, so get Davies on, even for Spence if you have to, but I’d rather take off Xavi, or someone else further forward. Push Van De Ven up as target close to Richy. Create turnovers in their half, rather than ours. Would it be pretty? Nope. Would it work? Maybe. Probably not, but at least you’re doing -something-!
And you are forcing the opponent to react, rather than just meekly surrender and walk silently into the night.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
He's had 16 league games!
The problem with your 'the manager is the problem' hypothesis is that he's punched above his weight as a manger. BUT he was given time, and didn't excel at first.
The other problem with your approach is the myriad managers we've sacked who've been very successful elsewhere. So were they the issue too? Or was a lack of long term building, stability, strategy the issue? Having run multiple organisations myself, I know which camp I am in.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Is that a weird way of saying you think the manager is the problem, and missing Kulu, Maddison and Solanke aren't important?
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
Backing the wrong manager is still wrongHe's had 16 league games!
The problem with your 'the manager is the problem' hypothesis is that he's punched above his weight as a manger. BUT he was given time, and didn't excel at first.
The other problem with your approach is the myriad managers we've sacked who've been very successful elsewhere. So were they the issue too? Or was a lack of long term building, stability, strategy the issue? Having run multiple organisations myself, I know which camp I am in.
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
I think the obsessions with injuries only happens after we lose and don’t create anything
And as I’ve repeated loads.. and you did try and say earlier until I flagged your mistake… missing players you never had shows you don’t have a plan for what you have
If he joined us and part of his ten key slides was this is how I’ll use Kulu, Maddison and Dom…. I’d be amazed. But it’s football
And again, as I’ve said loads… no manager ever has a fit squad
Yeah he has new player to bed in.. just like all teams (Dyche had 2 of his 3 front line that were new this season too by the way)
If new players need time
And existing players aren’t good enough
And we have our only good players injured
We’re doomed
I then wonder why he took the job
MartyFunkhouser
Willie Hall
I think plenty on here have said each time a manager has been appointed that they have fairly relaxed first year expectations based on the quality and injuries along with time for them to bed themselves in. I am sure if I can be bothered I would find half a dozen who said that (including myself)
Its certainly not a reactive after a defeat situation, we all know who our best players are, we were desperate to sign Solanke last year for that reason, that hasn't changed.
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
When we win we have people claiming that those who have highlighted the brick football are back pedalling
When we win no one mentions who is missing
When we lose it’s the same people defending the manager or saying he needs time (the latter part is true for any manager)
Then the injuries comes up
I did some digging on the data because we’re at the top of the injuries table and it includes Takei and Dragusin in there. TBF they may be game changers under Frank… we don’t know but again, player he has never had the benefit of using and has adjusted to not having (I assume)
we have 2 games over 18 days and if the performances aren’t good the noise will be even bigger
That’s about the only certainty
MartyFunkhouser
Willie Hall
Thats not really countering the point I was making, tons on here as with Ange said give him time and were very respectful of the injuries year one and the lack of depth
The same has applied to Frank, people are backing the manager whilst knowing their club well enough to know the restrictions he or whoever comes after will have in the same circumstances.
This isn't some massive conspiracy
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
MartyFunkhouser
Willie Hall
Yeah absolutely they did, people backed the fact Ange played two FBs in CB and froze out Dier because they were backing the manager to impose himself. There were lots of concessions made. I was dug out personally for backing the bloke and then when I said I thought he was done, I was dug out again, it happens, thats football BUT it gives you a better view of whats being said on here.
SO yeah tonnes definitely said in the summer they were willing to give the manager time again, there are many on here who are backing him still or at least are open to our issues who 100% said that and were realistic of this seasons ambitions.
I will leave it there because the Frank Bukkake on every topic on here is getting abit much and I have Manchester by the Sea to watch
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
You did back him
You were rare
Most people on here and among the wider fan base were backing him going in to the second season or "year one" as @MartyFunkhouser put it.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Even in games we've dominated, like Prague, we've failed to convert midfield play into goals. If you don't think there is an issue in the final third I'm not sure what you're watching! Last season Ange had to deal with missing the heart of the defence for a large chunck of the season. This season Frank hasn't had Kulu - who was immense for much of the past two seasons - and Maddison who's one mature head who can put his foot on the ball and dictate play. Solanke isn't as vital imo, but he's still an imposing striker who knows the league and can cause problems for CBs, which Richi just isn't built to do.
Is that a riddle?
What do poster win if they crack it?The point you're missing is we are low on quality. We have promising young players, but really miss seasoned pros who can dictate a game.
Kulusevski was winning games almost single handedly. For me he's the biggest loss. As he also works hard, tracks back, opens space, and sets up goals. He doesn't score as many as he maybe should. But he's a quality player. We miss him.
Maddison may not have the consistency and plays well in spells. But he can dictate games, start moves, provide guile. And he has experience. Won't lose his head, and can help the team play with more conviction. The only player who does something similar is Bergvall. And he's raw. He can win a game or lose it. And that is the pattern here. The younger players need time. They will make mistakes. You're expecting a manager to somehow turn young developing players, or players who aren't on the same high wages as the afore mentioned, into consistent players. I think Frank can actually do that - but not in 16 league games.
I think Frank (and most managers) need about this much game time to really know their squad. He now knows the limitations of these players. And now he needs to meld them into a side.
MartyFunkhouser
Willie Hall
I know there are tons of excuse like the price, the quality the manager etc, but eventually if this club is ever going to make it the fans need to unite behind the team and management for a sustained period. The booing and the wider comments and tearing down of anything we try to build really is counter productive.
I know people will argue the impact is not felt, but the media feed of the fans and the social media presence of the fans and the booing is clearly a factor.
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
Some backed him
As soon as the injuries kicked in he got the blame … from a LOT of people
He got called a fat Aussie so and so by a reasonable amount of posters too
We even now have a poster balling Ange for the injuries on Frank’s watch FFS
It’s absolute madness
When I walked out of the stadium in Bilbao I heard 2 young lads say how he has won the trophy the clam can fudge off
even now there are WUMs on here who claim that we didn’t win any games last season yet I saw some .. weird
And yet it’s all about Frank. It really really should be about what he doing or not doing
Injuries or not, signings or not, if anyone thinks he is getting the best of the team he has then good for them
To me, as a match going fan, like you, I see a team with no way of playing at all. I also see the players have no buy in (which is why I think the played have walked off and ignored him or shown their frustrations).
Somehow he has come in when we should have been on a high being back in the CL and brought everything crashing down which is no mean feat.
Neutrals with literally no skin in the game think we’re a shambles on the pitch. I’m sad in that football is an huge part of my life and I listen to lot of pods. The totally football one today absolutely nailed it
Bedfordspurs
Paul Gascoigne
Fans got behind Ange after 2 game at home
Two games
It doesn’t take a lot to excite
What it does take is a plan
And booing is fudging toxic but it does reflect what people are seeing. Toxic football generates toxic atmosphere
parklane1
Teddy Sheringham
Great post and so true. imo
glasgowspur
Barry Daines
Not saying any your proposed changes wouldn't have worked, just suggesting different.
Spence for Porro. Yes Porro does have a good delivery, but it's not been there for a couple of weeks, hitting the first man with an Eriksen like consistency. Porro is possibly being over played.
Tel or Odobert for Richie, move rkm into the middle.
Davies on at lb.
Bergvall for Bentancur.
I think the horse has bolted regarding that - the fanbase is just pure toxic at this stage and people are knowingly pushing/excusing it for *reasons* messageboards/Twitter/podcasts etc
The only way out is for the club to pull something out of the hat that sticks. Look at Arsenal as a prime example, they were one of, if not the most, toxic fanbase from the end of Wengers time through to Artetas 3rd season - now look at them, a real buzz about the place and their fans are prancing around rooster-a-hoop - if it doesn't come together when it did under Arteta (which took good transfers over a few seasons and a manager bedding things in over the same amount of time) then they continue down that path until something changes on the pitch.