Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[ricky2tricky4city]

People moan all the time, it's human nature,

Great innit?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

People moan all the time, it's human nature, doesn't really impact anything. It's the booing of the players that I'd have more of an issue, not moaning about the manager. And I thought you were referring to in general rather than specifically at games.

I think moaning, criticism, booing, constant negativity can have an impact. (In and away from the stadium)

It's a barometer of fan sentiment, and depending who is in charge (of any club), can have an impact. Eg Got Nuno the boot pretty quickly.

So it's collective and compounding.
It starts somewhere, and has started.
I'm not sure how that reflects/adds up considering how long hes been here and where we stand in both leagues.

I agree, it's probably is (current) human nature, but fudge me, it's boring. Gawd knows what it's like for the people in these already pressurised positions.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I think moaning, criticism, booing, constant negativity can have an impact. (In and away from the stadium)

It's a barometer of fan sentiment, and depending who is in charge (of any club), can have an impact. Eg Got Nuno the boot pretty quickly.

So it's collective and compounding.
It starts somewhere, and has started.
I'm not sure how that reflects/adds up considering how long hes been here and where we stand in both leagues.

I agree, it's probably is (current) human nature, but fudge me, it's boring. Gawd knows what it's like for the people in these already pressurised positions.

Of course it impacts, its human nature ffs. Booing clams reap what they sow.

 

[DubSpur]

I think moaning, criticism, booing, constant negativity can have an impact. (In and away from the stadium)

It's a barometer of fan sentiment, and depending who is in charge (of any club), can have an impact. Eg Got Nuno the boot pretty quickly.

So it's collective and compounding.
It starts somewhere, and has started.
I'm not sure how that reflects/adds up considering how long hes been here and where we stand in both leagues.

I agree, it's probably is (current) human nature, but fudge me, it's boring. Gawd knows what it's like for the people in these already pressurised positions.

It was really toxic when Nuno got the boot. It's nowhere near those levels now. We're in a decent position so I don't see Frank under threat any time soon. I'd be more concerned about the abuse the players take e.g. that fudging macaron abusing Bergvall.

Agree that it's boring. Too many used to getting what they want instantly (especially younger genertations) and moan when they don't get it.
But if there was no discussions on here about things that are wrong and we all just were a bunch of sheep cheering, it would be pretty boring here too.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It was really toxic when Nuno got the boot. It's nowhere near those levels now. We're in a decent position so I don't see Frank under threat any time soon. I'd be more concerned about the abuse the players take e.g. that fudging macaron abusing Bergvall.

That was just an example of the power of supporters. (re having an impact).
Stylistically we've got some gripes, but that's against the backdrop of what we expect as Spurs fans and how we like to the game played.(That's our problem ). And then we get to the headwinds Frank is facing re availability.
But even on that valid issue (style), I honestly couldn't care, solely on the time he's been here.

But if there was no discussions on here about things that are wrong and we all just were a bunch of sheep cheering, it would be pretty boring here too.

That would only be true if we all had absolutely nothing else to do

 

[Baleforce]

That was just an example of the power of supporters. (re having an impact).
Stylistically we've got some gripes, but that's against the backdrop of what we expect as Spurs fans and how we like to the game played.(That's our problem ). And then we get to the headwinds Frank is facing re availability.
But even on that valid issue (style), I honestly couldn't care, solely on the time he's been here.

That would only be true if we all had absolutely nothing else to do

We need to get over that stylistic thing.

It’s not boxing, you don’t get points for pretty.

And nearly 150 years in we’ve won 2 (of the now) major trophies.

Other methods are available.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

We need to get over that stylistic thing.

It’s not boxing, you don’t get points for pretty.

And nearly 150 years in we’ve won 2 (of the now) major trophies.

Other methods are available.

6-3-1?...by any chance

I think it's mildly amusing that Pulis and Big Sam are looking like the godfathers of the modern game.

 

[tommysvr]

Given the last bloke was serenaded with “you don’t know what you’re doing” I thought limiting it to boos at the Xavi sub the other day was quite mature from Spurs fans.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

He's doing very well considering the amount of games and injury list. Injuries have got so normalised now but when you step back and look at it our list is absurd.

 

[thfcsteff]

A bit nit picky on my part perhaps. But didn't look much like Palhinha and two 8s against United to me. Sarr playing very much a deep role, few of his trademark attacking runs, particularly in the first half. To me looked like more of the same to what we've seen recently, only with Sarr as one of the deep two.

Also a rather cautious first half imo. But, as it has been recently, some positive signs of trying to play through the middle - sometimes even rather promisingly so. But rather dependent on Romero.

I hope we see a return of the Palhinha Bentancur midfield duo against Arsenal. Overall I think Bentancur has been better than Sarr in that role, particularly recently when the handbrake has come off a bit. Think it was more a rotation thing than a tactical move to bring Sarr in against United.

I see that, but for me (currently) what Sarr brings as opposed to Bentancur are the legs to cover ground fast from that slightly deeper position. He still looks to go forward more than backwards/sideways. I believe that before his two injuries, Rodrigo was elite, however the injuries have taken an edge off him. I see Sarr as an 8 adapting a bit rather than Rodrigo, who has become a 6 that can adapt to his former glory. It's all semantics really (LOL) as the main thing is what the intent is, and I felt against Man U, the intent was more progressive. That spell in the first-half you referred to? I think it was us getting stung by what, their first true effort on target, and then their sitting off and forcing us to come onto them. I actually thought the caution was OK for a bit as it meant we could reset/not get stung again.

You could well be right, perhaps it was a rotation thing, however it felt a little different to me at least in the intent. I'll have to watch a replay again.

I would like us to play the same midfield against the Goons. IF he does as you suggest (and I think he will) a looser handbrake and Sarr will be vital to get on the pitch before it's too late IMO. I think Sarr 'connects' with the attack more fluidly, albeit the most important selection against them (IMO) will be Destiny at LB because if there's ever a game where our balance is going to be vital, that is it.

 

[thfcsteff]

Romero imo is up there. And some similarities in their style on the ball.

What we had with Toby and Jan were two quality ball playing centre backs, different qualities on the ball, but both really good. We haven't had many of those partnerships over the years. Part of what made that team work so well despite some shortcomings on the ball and creatively deep in midfield.

I think Toby has benefitted from the passage of time and nostalgia. He was excellent for a couple of seasons, but he did start to drop off. Jan? Rolls Royce player who I think we moved on too quickly.

 

[Baleforce]

I think Toby has benefitted from the passage of time and nostalgia. He was excellent for a couple of seasons, but he did start to drop off. Jan? Rolls Royce player who I think we moved on too quickly.

Agree on Toby.

But Jan fell off a cliff too, I remember a game against United where he was completely shown up.

 

[thfcsteff]

Agree on Toby.

But Jan fell off a cliff too, I remember a game against United where he was completely shown up.

That is probably fair if I dig a little deeper into the foggy grey thing within my cranium. I always felt there was a squad role for him IF we'd also been able to offer him a role in the coaching staff (he might not have taken it of course so it is conjecture)...


I think the CB pairings debate is a fun one.

...wait a few months and I'll reinvoke the sentiment I hold which is that Eric Dier was monstrously underappreciated by our supporters!!!

 

[Baleforce]

That is probably fair if I dig a little deeper into the foggy grey thing within my cranium.

I think the CB pairings debate is a fun one.

...wait a few months and I'll reinvoke the sentiment I hold which is that Eric Dier was monstrously underappreciated by our supporters!!!

Wholeheartedly agree with that one.

 

[braineclipse]

I see that, but for me (currently) what Sarr brings as opposed to Bentancur are the legs to cover ground fast from that slightly deeper position. He still looks to go forward more than backwards/sideways. I believe that before his two injuries, Rodrigo was elite, however the injuries have taken an edge off him. I see Sarr as an 8 adapting a bit rather than Rodrigo, who has become a 6 that can adapt to his former glory. It's all semantics really (LOL) as the main thing is what the intent is, and I felt against Man U, the intent was more progressive. That spell in the first-half you referred to? I think it was us getting stung by what, their first true effort on target, and then their sitting off and forcing us to come onto them. I actually thought the caution was OK for a bit as it meant we could reset/not get stung again.

You could well be right, perhaps it was a rotation thing, however it felt a little different to me at least in the intent. I'll have to watch a replay again.

I would like us to play the same midfield against the Goons. IF he does as you suggest (and I think he will) a looser handbrake and Sarr will be vital to get on the pitch before it's too late IMO. I think Sarr 'connects' with the attack more fluidly, albeit the most important selection against them (IMO) will be Destiny at LB because if there's ever a game where our balance is going to be vital, that is it.

Agreed that Sarr looks to get forward off the ball more, but that doesn't solve how to also get the ball forward in a good way.

I thought the intent for the Manchester United game was very much on the cautious side in the first half, including Sarr being restricted in how much he got forward off the ball. But we at least tried with some conviction to play through the middle. That's good.

I think it's more an intent and willingness to play with risk and through the middle than a selection thing between Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr. They all have their limitations of course, but the difference between them in that regard isn't that big. But the difference between us looking to attack, play with risk and a more cautious/conservative approach is more significant.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Agreed that Sarr looks to get forward off the ball more, but that doesn't solve how to also get the ball forward in a good way.

I thought the intent for the Manchester United game was very much on the cautious side in the first half, including Sarr being restricted in how much he got forward off the ball. But we at least tried with some conviction to play through the middle. That's good.

I think it's more an intent and willingness to play with risk and through the middle than a selection thing between Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr. They all have their limitations of course, but the difference between them in that regard isn't that big. But the difference between us looking to attack, play with risk and a more cautious/conservative approach is more significant.

It certainly looked v United that Sarr was asked to hold a little more than his usual game. A shame because at the start of the season he was on fire using his best qualities in the best way.

Overall I think until quality of partnerships, patterns, and relationships have an uptick (which in turn are helped by having more players available, albeit take slightly longer due to chopping and changing), the most prominent variation on how we look (thru transition etc) is simply the quality of opposition.
If we are a bit slow at noticing, slow at taking a passing opportunity, slow to know automatically where a teammate is, very rarely open to one touch passing....then the teams with high press, mid press locked down are going to make life difficult, or even teams with just high quality individuals.

For us that middle area is very much in development...who knows how quickly Xavi will get up to speed, the ideal role for Lucas/Sarr/Gray, how long until Deki is back, Maddison we can pretty much forget, will the Solanke dynamic help with hold up? So much barely revealed so far.

Hence maybe why we appear focused on going down the sides. Of course it could be argued that TF is just being too pragmatic and involving Lucas/Sarr/Gray (and even Bentancur in a more driving force roll) is actually a (brave) opportunity missed.

Which may be explained by Frank simply thinking...'this is a big step up and I don't want to risk fudging it up out the gate'?
Who knows?

 

[thfcsteff]

Agreed that Sarr looks to get forward off the ball more, but that doesn't solve how to also get the ball forward in a good way.

I thought the intent for the Manchester United game was very much on the cautious side in the first half, including Sarr being restricted in how much he got forward off the ball. But we at least tried with some conviction to play through the middle. That's good.

I think it's more an intent and willingness to play with risk and through the middle than a selection thing between Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr. They all have their limitations of course, but the difference between them in that regard isn't that big. But the difference between us looking to attack, play with risk and a more cautious/conservative approach is more significant.

We simply don't have that player in the squad in the sense of an elite passer, and it is one of the more intriguing elements of Frank, to see if he signs one or not.

As for your other points, we are (as you know) in agreement, as it is exactly what I have said I want to see in terms of approach to play.

 

[thfcsteff]

It certainly looked v United that Sarr was asked to hold a little more than his usual game. A shame because at the start of the season he was on fire using his best qualities in the best way.

Overall I think until quality of partnerships, patterns, and relationships have an uptick (which in turn are helped by having more players available, albeit take slightly longer due to chopping and changing), the most prominent variation on how we look (thru transition etc) is simply the quality of opposition.
If we are a bit slow at noticing, slow at taking a passing opportunity, slow to know automatically where a teammate is, very rarely open to one touch passing....then the teams with high press, mid press locked down are going to make life difficult, or even teams with just high quality individuals.

For us that middle area is very much in development...who knows how quickly Xavi will get up to speed, the ideal role for Lucas/Sarr/Gray, how long until Deki is back, Maddison we can pretty much forget, will the Solanke dynamic help with hold up? So much barely revealed so far.

Hence maybe why we appear focused on going down the sides. Of course it could be argued that TF is just being too pragmatic and involving Lucas/Sarr/Gray (and even Bentancur in a more driving force roll) is actually a (brave) opportunity missed.

Which may be explained by Frank simply thinking...'this is a big step up and I don't want to risk fudging it up out the gate'?
Who knows?

This is the (currently immortal) question for me regarding Frank and his management. Is he simply adapting to do the best he has with what he has, or will this style prove to be his primary choice?

 

[braineclipse]

It certainly looked v United that Sarr was asked to hold a little more than his usual game. A shame because at the start of the season he was on fire using his best qualities in the best way.

Overall I think until quality of partnerships, patterns, and relationships have an uptick (which in turn are helped by having more players available, albeit take slightly longer due to chopping and changing), the most prominent variation on how we look (thru transition etc) is simply the quality of opposition.
If we are a bit slow at noticing, slow at taking a passing opportunity, slow to know automatically where a teammate is, very rarely open to one touch passing....then the teams with high press, mid press locked down are going to make life difficult, or even teams with just high quality individuals.

For us that middle area is very much in development...who knows how quickly Xavi will get up to speed, the ideal role for Lucas/Sarr/Gray, how long until Deki is back, Maddison we can pretty much forget, will the Solanke dynamic help with hold up? So much barely revealed so far.

Hence maybe why we appear focused on going down the sides. Of course it could be argued that TF is just being too pragmatic and involving Lucas/Sarr/Gray (and even Bentancur in a more driving force roll) is actually a (brave) opportunity missed.

Which may be explained by Frank simply thinking...'this is a big step up and I don't want to risk fudging it up out the gate'?
Who knows?

Good post mate.

Great summary too - who knows?

As long as there's progress in our attacking play, possession play I'm reasonably happy with that. Not expecting miracles, and with the injuries and shortcomings in the squad a more cautious approach may be the right choice. But we need to see progress over time.

 

[braineclipse]

We simply don't have that player in the squad in the sense of an elite passer, and it is one of the more intriguing elements of Frank, to see if he signs one or not.

As for your other points, we are (as you know) in agreement, as it is exactly what I have said I want to see in terms of approach to play.

We definitely don't in deep midfield.

To bring it back to a previous discussion we didn't really at times under Pochettino either. But we compensated for that with two really good ball playing centre backs, Eriksen, Kane etc.

Apologies if I spend too long reiterating points we're already in agreement on. By that I don't mean I will stop doing it though