Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[thfcsteff]

Unfortunately this is what happens when one travel of thought dominates the narrative. The previous governments have done nothing in addressing the public’s opinions and divides. So the vacuum with be filled with another form of stupidity.

It will be interesting to see if reform actually win it. All politicians chime into the sentiment before getting into power and then realise that their crockpot peddling won’t come into play. It’s been a quarter century of back peddling and unviable promises.

Isn't that exactly what Cameron did? BTW, I am in no way a fan of Cameron or what he did. The truth IMO is that we have never been a more dangerous era with regards to misinformation and manipulation by social media.

 

[thfcsteff]

The YouGov MRP polls are very reliable and accurate to within a small margin of error. Albeit it is still a snapshot in time (i.e. its "if a GE were held now" - well it won't be held until 2029) - although i am not sure the established parties have an answer for this as their fundamental problem is that all of them other than the Greens have been in power and therefore they are ALL part of the problem.

their current attack line of "Reform don't have the answer to your problems" will not work as Farage's answer is a simple: "well we can hardly do any worse than all of those lot".

Delivery against the wishes of the British public is the only way to counter Reform and this current government are failing woefully at this...

As to Labour and the other parties, i don't think they have a choice but to lean into it. Because its the clear no. 1 priority for a majority of the public.

I agree with you, reductive stuff like that which then doesn't go on to offer anything constructive or positive in reposte as to what could be done is wholly dangerous. Time and time again the failure has been to write off groups like this and try to marginalise them. It never works. In this case it is really important for opposition to Reform to actually hear what their supporters/potential converts are saying THEY see the problems as and address THOSE. There can be no room for assumptions whatsoever; to make them in this current climate only provokes enormous anger and further polarization.

 

[Gazza]

Isn't that exactly what Cameron did? BTW, I am in no way a fan of Cameron or what he did. The truth IMO is that we have never been a more dangerous era with regards to misinformation and manipulation by social media.

He did cannot disagree with that, but it was the misinformation that was peddled at the time, as it is now that has got people so riled up. Like you said, it’s very bleak as you have the spinsters peddling to the sheep and amongst the sheep you have people that are too scared of having any form of any opinion as it hurts feelings or not accepted.

 

[thfcsteff]

It started ramping up dramatically for non-EU nationals as a result of the introduction of the post-Brexit immigration system, but is trending down now. But more importantly, it is a counter-narrative to reform's racist nativist bile, if Labour chooses to take control of the narrative rather than let Froghorn Faghorn drive it. As I have said before, Starmer is not a good politician.

He projects as someone constantly caught between a mistake and an apology. Modern politics is most certainly personality-driven (perhaps it always was - and BTW, I accept that even stating that is both sad and somewhat distasteful but it is true, policy without projection is pretty much redundant to the public ear) and unfortunately, he projects nothing.

 

[glasgowspur]

You want to beat Reform it's really easy, don't focus on Reform and beating them, focus what is driving people to vote for Reform.
It's exact same problem the dems had in America and the French have with le pen, don't focus on the opposition, focus on the issues.
Issues in many cases created by the government, usually against public opinion, but rather than try and solve those problems they point and name call.
Feels like no lessons are ever learnt, you give them oxygen, you fuel their fire.

 

[Grays_1890]

You want to beat Reform it's really easy, don't focus on Reform and beating them, focus what is driving people to vote for Reform.
It's exact same problem the dems had in America and the French have with le pen, don't focus on the opposition, focus on the issues.
Issues in many cases created by the government, usually against public opinion, but rather than try and solve those problems they point and name call.
Feels like no lessons are ever learnt, you give them oxygen, you fuel their fire.

I agree to an extent, but how do you fight the issues of lies?

The whole paracetamol during pregnancy lie which was backed by Tice has to be rebuffed, otherwise its dangerous to society. But you fight it and you are fighting the conspiracy crew that unfortunately fuel the right.

My timeline on twitter is full of post covid rabbit hole worshippers who are being retweeted or exposed for backing up Trump and Farage....just because they lean the same way

So whilst I agree we shouldn't focus on them, there is a level of sheer thickness in society that needs controlling, otherwise its just frankly dangerous

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree to an extent, but how do you fight the issues of lies?

The whole paracetamol during pregnancy lie which was backed by Tice has to be rebuffed, otherwise its dangerous to society. But you fight it and you are fighting the conspiracy crew that unfortunately fuel the right.

My timeline on twitter is full of post covid rabbit hole worshippers who are being retweeted or exposed for backing up Trump and Farage....just because they lean the same way

So whilst I agree we shouldn't focus on them, there is a level of sheer thickness in society that needs controlling, otherwise its just frankly dangerous

I think it goes back to finding the right language with which to communicate with various people and opinions. It's very difficult. Needless to say, I believe that the only forward (regardless of the views being expressed in most cases except overtly and unapologetically racist) is to listen to everyone and mean it. As @ricky2tricky4city said, we have sadly arrived at that place where the middle doesn't exist and everyone feels they have to be on one side or another. We need to re-create that middle space again.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think it goes back to finding the right language with which to communicate with various people and opinions. It's very difficult. Needless to say, I believe that the only forward (regardless of the views being expressed in most cases except overtly and unapologetically racist) is to listen to everyone and mean it. As @ricky2tricky4city said, we have sadly arrived at that place where the middle doesn't exist and everyone feels they have to be on one side or another. We need to re-create that middle space again.

I agree 100%

But I also believe there should be consequence of lies.

When people say "don't take him literally but take him seriously" then IMO the truth is being backed and bullied into a corner.

I think people need to engage more, so will repeat that, but lies need calling out for what it is.

The issue has heightened since covid and Twitter age IMO, people have lost any sense of balance and ability to be a decent human being. Some have put their chips all in on Trump and Farage and willing to ignore the crude because they agree with a few key points.

It's sad is what it is

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree to an extent, but how do you fight the issues of lies?

The whole paracetamol during pregnancy lie which was backed by Tice has to be rebuffed, otherwise its dangerous to society. But you fight it and you are fighting the conspiracy crew that unfortunately fuel the right.

My timeline on twitter is full of post covid rabbit hole worshippers who are being retweeted or exposed for backing up Trump and Farage....just because they lean the same way

So whilst I agree we shouldn't focus on them, there is a level of sheer thickness in society that needs controlling, otherwise its just frankly dangerous

You can't fight lies, there comes a point where you need to check our of those conversations.
All that happens is the lies get dumber and those listening become more entrenched.
There's a lot wrong in the world just now, sort the major issues and this kind of crap disappears.
When you are content you don't go looking for trouble.
Reform and their ilk aren't the problem, the problem is that the parties that created the issues either can't or won't address the issues that they created in the first place.
That's driving the electorate to reform.
Few people that vote reform in the next election actually believes they are the answer, it's little more than a big middle finger to the political classes.
The big problem is that if reform get in and it all falls to pieces, and it will, the political classes will just say, "see, we know better," carry as before and we're truly fudged.

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree 100%

But I also believe there should be consequence of lies.

When people say "don't take him literally but take him seriously" then IMO the truth is being backed and bullied into a corner.

I think people need to engage more, so will repeat that, but lies need calling out for what it is.

The issue has heightened since covid and Twitter age IMO, people have lost any sense of balance and ability to be a decent human being. Some have put their chips all in on Trump and Farage and willing to ignore the crude because they agree with a few key points.

It's sad is what it is

I don't think you call them out as lies, at best all you can do is explain it's not true, lay out the truth and let people come to their own conclusions.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still, and all that.

 

[Rorschach]

They have years before they have to worry about being elected again.

I agree they should work in the middle, immigration is only an issue to the far right.

There is no middle now. Forget that brick

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't think you call them out as lies, at best all you can do is explain it's not true, lay out the truth and let people come to their own conclusions.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still, and all that.

But therein lies and issue for me.

People are literally being given Carte Blanche now to peddle lies which are having a hugely detrimental impact on innocent people's lives.

I don't wanna see my Dr harassed or shop keepers having to lock themselves away because someone has spread hate filled lies which means idiots are now acting with this mob mentality.

Maybe you are right and it needs to be boxed as the truth rather than called a lie, but are people going to listen to "truths" when they have already made up their mind?

Im skeptical

 

[Grays_1890]

"My taxi driver said we will have Sharia law in the UK"

Nice one Nige

Mine once told me he played for West Ham, quick google turns up he didn't

Thats the future of the country...........scary as fudge

 

[Gazza]

"My taxi driver said we will have Sharia law in the UK"

Nice one Nige

Mine once told me he played for West Ham, quick google turns up he didn't

Thats the future of the country...........scary as fudge

Well it wouldn’t be unlikely for his taxi driver to say that. But it’s quite silly to put it in the public domain, it’s a cheap comment /slant for Nigel and his growing support.

If he wanted to go down that route he should have just mentioned the studies that show roughly have half of the Muslims in the UK wanting sharia law.

 

[Grays_1890]

Well it wouldn’t be unlikely for his taxi driver to say that. But it’s quite silly to put it in the public domain, it’s a cheap comment /slant for Nigel and his growing support.

If he wanted to go down that route he should have just mentioned the studies that show roughly have half of the Muslims in the UK wanting sharia law.

It made him sound like a bloke down the Spoons

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Farage is the the most intelligent, articulate and powerful communicator in British politics right now by a mile in my opinion.

The quip about the taxi driver is powerful as it is simply acknowledging what ordinary people in this country believe and are concerned about.

You talk about a centre - Reform are becoming the centre. What is the "centre" in politics other than the coalesing of majority public opinion across all demographics on the major issues facing the country and what should be done to tackle it. I.e. its the "points of majority agreement" (what most people have in common).

It is becoming clear that an increasing majority of people from all demographics and walks of life are overlapping now in thought processes on immigration. That is not to say everyone agrees fully with the following but its where increasing numbers of people are landing:

- There's been too much of it for too long

- Government policy for over a decade has been ineffective at addressing it

- Its now clearly having a negative impact on ordinary people's lives. I.e. micro examples are being asked to pay more council tax while bin collections are reduced.

- People are not dumb and understand the economic concept of supply and demand: more demand than supply = higher prices for less stuff.

- They understand the truth that is now blatantly obvious that theres now a fundamental structural issue within our economy of excess demand by huge numbers of many unskilled lower paid migrants outstripping supply, suppressing job opportunities and wage growth and pushing down on standards of living and public services while people are being taxed more to pay for more services at a rate that is still not enough to keep up with demand (therefore you are paying more for less).

This clip is a really good example of Farage's communication skills on this issue. He engages with and actually agrees with the person confronting him, but then goes on to disect and destroy the idea that her truth should still form the basis for current public policy:

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Reform are taking voters from Consrrvatives, Labour and SNP. The recent Lib Dem conference shows where the Lib Dems think they feel threatened by in terms of losing votes. That means by definition Reform increasingly represent the centre ground of political consciousness in this country.

Everyone thinks we need to go harder, faster and more extreme to tackle the problem due to failures of current and prior policy. When even Labour centrist grandees such as Jack Straw are talking about the need to leave the ECHR you know these views are no longer extreme. Reform are becoming popular because they are seen as the necessary medicine the country needs despite any reservations people may have about them. Thats due to a failure by other parties to tackle the priority problem.

Similar to Boris Johnson tories. Was seen as a necessary medicine for people to tackle their no. 1 priority: resolving Brexit. Hence why large numbers of Labour voters "lent their vote" in 2019.

 

[Grays_1890]

Farage is the the most intelligent, articulate and powerful communicator in British politics right now by a mile in my opinion.

The quip about the taxi driver is powerful as it is simply acknowledging what ordinary people in this country believe and are concerned about.

It wasn't a quip, it was his answer to a serious question, the reason it works is because his audience is made up of people who will make excuses for the lack of depth

At least @Gazza acknowledged that and in fairness there is better data to back up his claim, which he just never seems to produce for depth.

But again, people have largely made up their mind that Farage is their hero, so a large level of his foundation are secured IMO

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

It wasn't a quip, it was his answer to a serious question, the reason it works is because his audience is made up of people who will make excuses for the lack of depth

At least @Gazza acknowledged that and in fairness there is better data to back up his claim, which he just never seems to produce for depth.

But again, people have largely made up their mind that Farage is their hero, so a large level of his foundation are secured IMO

Most people haven't made up their mind that he is their hero. They've made up their mind that he is the only one willing to do what is necessary to tackle their priority in the way they want it tackled. There's a difference.

 

[Gazza]

Farage is the the most intelligent, articulate and powerful communicator in British politics right now by a mile in my opinion.

The quip about the taxi driver is powerful as it is simply acknowledging what ordinary people in this country believe and are concerned about.

You talk about a centre - Reform are becoming the centre. What is the "centre" in politics other than the coalesing of majority public opinion across all demographics on the major issues facing the country and what should be done to tackle it. I.e. its the "points of majority agreement" (what most people have in common).

It is becoming clear that an increasing majority of people from all demographics and walks of life are overlapping now in thought processes on immigration. That is not to say everyone agrees fully with the following but its where increasing numbers of people are landing:

- There's been too much of it for too long

- Government policy for over a decade has been ineffective at addressing it

- Its now clearly having a negative impact on ordinary people's lives. I.e. micro examples are being asked to pay more council tax while bin collections are reduced.

- People are not dumb and understand the economic concept of supply and demand: more demand than supply = higher prices for less stuff.

- They understand the truth that is now blatantly obvious that theres now a fundamental structural issue within our economy of excess demand by huge numbers of many unskilled lower paid migrants outstripping supply, suppressing job opportunities and wage growth and pushing down on standards of living and public services while people are being taxed more to pay for more services at a rate that is still not enough to keep up with demand (therefore you are paying more for less).

This clip is a really good example of Farage's communication skills on this issue. He engages with and actually agrees with the person confronting him, but then goes on to disect and destroy the idea that her truth should still form the basis for current public policy:

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Reform are taking voters from Consrrvatives, Labour and SNP. The recent Lib Dem conference shows where the Lib Dems think they feel threatened by in terms of losing votes. That means by definition Reform increasingly represent the centre ground of political consciousness in this country.

Everyone thinks we need to go harder, faster and more extreme to tackle the problem due to failures of current and prior policy. When even Labour centrist grandees such as Jack Straw are talking about the need to leave the ECHR you know these views are no longer extreme. Reform are becoming popular because they are seen as the necessary medicine the country needs despite any reservations people may have about them. Thats due to a failure by other parties to tackle the priority problem.

Similar to Boris Johnson tories. Was seen as a necessary medicine for people to tackle their no. 1 priority: resolving Brexit. Hence why large numbers of Labour voters "lent their vote" in 2019.

Nigel actually is one hell of a speaker whether you agree with his views or not. He doesn’t really need to dial into facts as his articulation of tapping into people’s emotions gets him ears. He’s on the pulse and knows exactly what he is saying to suit his agenda.

If he gets into power he will soon realise his policies will fall flat and his plan of action will not succeed the way he’s peddling. This doesn’t make him any more special or worse than the people that have recently come before him.

It’s quite clear that I have disdain against sharia as it’s deplorable against humanity and equal rights, and more so sharia discriminates against me so why would I like it? Especially living in a civilised society. But what Nigel is doing here is not educating people why it’s backwards and idiotic but suggesting one person making a statement means that everyone needs to take note. Instead Nigel why don’t you just be brave and say what you want rather than hiding behind an irrelevant comment.

 

[Grays_1890]

Most people haven't made up their mind that he is their hero. They've made up their mind that he is the only one willing to do what is necessary to tackle their priority in the way they want it tackled. There's a difference.

Those that defend his lack of depth, despite being a smart speaker clearly have. Those happy to pass of lac of depth as "quips" for example