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Richarlison

Bishop said:
Harry Kane is course. Why would I compare to a middling player? Do we want ultimate success or not?

I'm comparing every player to flipping Messi. The closer they get to that standard the better they are obviously.

It's not even blinkers, I'm just not swayed by the fairly simplistic notions like "he scored, he must have had a good game!". Instead I'm more interested in how was his general performance? How was his hold up play? Link play? Quality of his passing? Did he move the team forward? Was his overall contribution net positive? What could he have done in specific situations etc? For me he scores poorly in those areas and of course that's a personal bias in terms of what I want to see from a forward but that's my criteria.

I have exacting standards and just because I support Tottenham doesn't mean I or even we should lower them. Lowering them is why we've largely won fudge all for so long because we are always so quick to defend and excuse lower quality rather than demanding better. One day if we ever get a league winning side you we will see that the standards that's I'm following preaching about are exactly the standards we will have hit to win the league. I await that day. 🤣
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Just to say, I posted after this reply and I think you already answered most of the discussion. Appreciate the engagement.
 
thfcsteff said:
EVERY player has 'failings' it depends what you expect of them measured against what they do, and hown they're being used.

Of course that's a good place to start, but some players are elevated by their teammates and how systems are built. Richarlison is a very good player. His injury record has absolutely impeded his output. He has been deployed as a CF and LW mostly; you could speculate that if he had solely been played as CF, he'd have even more goals.

I am in TOTAL agreement that we should always upgrade when we get the chance. I just am not seeing a striker right now in Richy's price range who is significantly better than him. Interested in who you see that is.

(BTW a very interesting discussion IMO and appreciate you engaging)
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Yeah I'm always up for the discussion. I'd never just attack your view and run away. I love the tactical chat and seeing the varying viewpoints and I'm not afraid to state my own views no matter how controversial they might be on this forum.

I think with Richy I've just watched him for many years and none of this new to me or unexpected, he's very much the player he's always been injuries for us or not.

I think the price range argument kind of misses the mark because there are always players if varying strata available, it just takes diligent and intelligent scouting. Not to do the hindsight thing but João Pedro was bought for less than what we paid for Richy 3 years later and at a younger age as well. So if you look around I don't think it's particularly difficult to find better than Richy.
 
Bishop said:
Yeah I'm always up for the discussion. I'd never just attack your view and run away. I love the tactical chat and seeing the varying viewpoints and I'm not afraid to state my own views no matter how controversial they might be on this forum.

I think with Richy I've just watched him for many years and none of this new to me or unexpected, he's very much the player he's always been injuries for us or not.

I think the price range argument kind of misses the mark because there are always players if varying strata available, it just takes diligent and intelligent scouting. Not to do the hindsight thing but João Pedro was bought for less than what we paid for Richy 3 years later and at a younger age as well. So if you look around I don't think it's particularly difficult to find better than Richy.
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He's a good comparison TBF. I don't think they're as easy to find, however you could be right and an improvement in scouting might well be the way forward.

I will wait til the end of the season to judge Richy, albeit I think this will likely be his last with us. IF he can stay fit and rotate whilst still being 'in rhythm' then we'll see if he can hit the numbers which his 'fit' stats suggest he can.
 
Bishop said:
It's because when I critique these players the standard response is just one of settling and making do which I find amusing. If we went with that attitude all around we'd never improve on anyone because every player in squad gets backed up by a group of fans somewhere. You'd think our squad was perfect and winning every game 5-0 the way none of our players are below the standard required. Go into any thread on this forum and there will be someone in there making excuses and bigging them up their abilities.

And saying I'm saying get excellent players is disingenuous because I explain the failings of any player I critique.

It just seems to me that a lot of people rate players on whether they play for spurs or not. I rate players on whether they are good players first, the team they play for is irrelevant.

Make it make sense. 🤣
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I doubt we've ever not sold a player the manager/club wants to sell because a part of the fanbase likes them.

OK. So it boils down to "buy better players"?

The context of the conversation matters. I doubt you'd find a single person here in disagreement with Richarlison being a significantly worse player than Kane or Messi.
 
Bishop said:
I know exactly the meaning of the word maybe you don't? Average which is what he is and using selective stats isn't going to change that.

I've watched Richy for almost 10 years at this point my opinion on him is well founded on well over a hundred games.

Lazy discourse is just dismissing the critique without being able to counter with arguments that actually hold your point up. Attacking me isn't going to make Richy a better player or give your argument any grounding. As you said free speech is free so feel free to actually use yours to explain how Richy is not the player I describe him as.
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Average / mediocre are the players I play with for Sunday league (myself excluded of course). Richy plays at the top level of English football and represents Brazil, whatever some nomark on the internet says, Richy doesn’t fall into the mediocre footballer category.

What is my argument? I get joy from supporting the team and that includes Richarlison, and he's a handy player to have, I'm pretty sure Frank agrees, that's evidenced by him getting picked when we have other options available. Your argument, as disected by Brain, is a tedious one. Sure, it's better to have better players, multiple awards coming your way for that high level observation!
 
braineclipse said:
I doubt we've ever not sold a player the manager/club wants to sell because a part of the fanbase likes them.

OK. So it boils down to "buy better players"?

The context of the conversation matters. I doubt you'd find a single person here in disagreement with Richarlison being a significantly worse player than Kane or Messi.
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So your argument boils down to what exactly? Don't critique players because we have them? Just accept any player until they are moved on make excuses for them in the meantime? Why are you even on a football discussion board if you don't find a point to the discussion?

It's not even that he's not Messi, he's not even Defoe or Keane, or Kanuoute or Chris bloody Wood.
spurspinter1 said:
Average / mediocre are the players I play with for Sunday league (myself excluded of course). Richy plays at the top level of English football and represents Brazil, whatever some nomark on the internet says, Richy doesn’t fall into the mediocre footballer category.

What is my argument? I get joy from supporting the team and that includes Richarlison, and he's a handy player to have, I'm pretty sure Frank agrees, that's evidenced by him getting picked when we have other options available. Your argument, as disected by Brain, is a tedious one. Sure, it's better to have better players, multiple awards coming your way for that high level observation!
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Now you're just playing silly buggers. Every premier league player is within the top 1% of football players world wide. That bloody obvious, when we speak in their abilities it's relative to their peers. I'll break it down in a very clear manner because you seem to not be able to understand. Richy is an average player in comparison to his peers. His peers being other other top flight professionals.
 
Bishop said:
So your argument boils down to what exactly? Don't critique players because we have them?
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I think critiquing any player is just fine. With the Richi scenario, I'm quite relaxed. I don't really recall too many number 9's being available in the recent transfer market to find a clear upgrade. I also see the club taking on punts on several younger players to create a pipeline for the future. Muani has bought us some time as well.

Spurs really are now at a level where we should only ever think of 2 or 3 signings per transfer window. They need to be clear upgrades as well.

I don't believe Richi will be here next season.
 
Bishop said:
So your argument boils down to what exactly? Don't critique players because we have them? Just accept any player until they are moved on make excuses for them in the meantime? Why are you even on a football discussion board if you don't find a point to the discussion?

It's not even that he's not Messi, he's not even Defoe or Keane, or Kanuoute or Chris bloody Wood.
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You mustn't have read many of my posts if you think I think we shouldn't criticise our players. I quite frequently point out what I see as weaknesses in our players. I can promise you I would hace left this place ages ago if I found no point in discussions or disagreements.

You're the one who said "make it make sense" - while sharing that your impression of what others are saying would mean that their conclusion was that "our squad was perfect and winning every game 5-0 the way none of our players are below the standard required".

To me it makes sense. Seems to me you're in part in disagreement with what others are saying (of course people will disagree), but also part that you're imo seemingly missing the context of the conversation. Your standard for how players should be evaluated won't always be the only useful perspective or standard and you shouldn't assume people use the same standard or perspective as you when they say something.

Who would you think is at a similar level to Richarlison then?
 
braineclipse said:
You mustn't have read many of my posts if you think I think we shouldn't criticise our players. I quite frequently point out what I see as weaknesses in our players. I can promise you I would hace left this place ages ago if I found no point in discussions or disagreements.

You're the one who said "make it make sense" - while sharing that your impression of what others are saying would mean that their conclusion was that "our squad was perfect and winning every game 5-0 the way none of our players are below the standard required".

To me it makes sense. Seems to me you're in part in disagreement with what others are saying (of course people will disagree), but also part that you're imo seemingly missing the context of the conversation. Your standard for how players should be evaluated won't always be the only useful perspective or standard and you shouldn't assume people use the same standard or perspective as you when they say something.

Who would you think is at a similar level to Richarlison then?
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By all means use whatever standard makes sense to you but it very much looks like for many fans there is one standard for those that play for us and another for those that don't. The ones that play for us seem to get a bonus 5 point starting point. I suppose you could boil it down to it simplest form, if I watched that player for another team playing the way they do here would I want them at Spurs.

In terms of comparable players for Richy, I'd say the likes of Wissa Solanke, Wissa, Nunez and Matata. All players who can have a good day, and even a very good day but they are also players lacking in some critical areas to make them a quality well rounded performer.

I know I have higher standards than most but that's mainly because I actually want to win and I see what is required and what areas need improving on to get to that level. A player like Richy 3 years in isn't going to achieve it.
 
Bishop said:
So your argument boils down to what exactly? Don't critique players because we have them? Just accept any player until they are moved on make excuses for them in the meantime? Why are you even on a football discussion board if you don't find a point to the discussion?

It's not even that he's not Messi, he's not even Defoe or Keane, or Kanuoute or Chris bloody Wood.

Now you're just playing silly buggers. Every premier league player is within the top 1% of football players world wide. That bloody obvious, when we speak in their abilities it's relative to their peers. I'll break it down in a very clear manner because you seem to not be able to understand. Richy is an average player in comparison to his peers. His peers being other other top flight professionals.
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I'm sure you'll find whatever comparison you need to keep on hating, as is your prerogative. Other people choose joy 😊 😃
 
Bishop said:
So your argument boils down to what exactly? Don't critique players because we have them? Just accept any player until they are moved on make excuses for them in the meantime? Why are you even on a football discussion board if you don't find a point to the discussion?

It's not even that he's not Messi, he's not even Defoe or Keane, or Kanuoute or Chris bloody Wood.

Now you're just playing silly buggers. Every premier league player is within the top 1% of football players world wide. That bloody obvious, when we speak in their abilities it's relative to their peers. I'll break it down in a very clear manner because you seem to not be able to understand. Richy is an average player in comparison to his peers. His peers being other other top flight professionals.
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Defoe and Keane were elite strikers, not to mention different types of player. He is absolutely as good and IMO better than Kanoute (albeit he is not as easy on the eye as Freddie was)...I will take your Chris Wood comment as a touch of humour.

And that's your opinion. Not mine. Not that of many others. He is significantly better than 'average' and south of 'excellent'...
 
thfcsteff said:
Defoe and Keane were elite strikers, not to mention different types of player. He is absolutely as good and IMO better than Kanoute (albeit he is not as easy on the eye as Freddie was)...I will take your Chris Wood comment as a touch of humour.

And that's your opinion. Not mine. Not that of many others. He is significantly better than 'average' and south of 'excellent'...
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Not sure Defoe was elite personally. Keane was for a couple of seasons but. Ironic that you mention Defoe because people defended him on here for years. Back to Richarlison, I can’t fault his work ethic but his lack of robustness does frustrate me, whether it’s the constant injuries he picks up or his inability to stay on his feet and be stronger.
 
spurspinter1 said:
I'm sure you'll find whatever comparison you need to keep on hating, as is your prerogative. Other people choose joy 😊 😃
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He’s not hating. He just wants us to win which of course we all want. Some fans just have a lower tolerance for players they feel aren’t up to the required standards. I don’t think it’s even limited to Richarlison or personal for that matter. For years posters have defended players who needed upgrading long before we eventually moved them on. Obviously people will always have different opinions about players which is fine. But at the same time I agree with Bishop that we need to have higher standards if we really want to hang with the big boys.
 
thfcsteff said:
Defoe and Keane were elite strikers, not to mention different types of player. He is absolutely as good and IMO better than Kanoute (albeit he is not as easy on the eye as Freddie was)...I will take your Chris Wood comment as a touch of humour.

And that's your opinion. Not mine. Not that of many others. He is significantly better than 'average' and south of 'excellent'...
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Not sure what elite means for you.
 
Muttley said:
Q: Who was elite out of Keane and Defoe

A: Berbatov

Still gutted we didn't get Bellamy when Harry first joined. City snaffled him in that January and we ended up with Keane back. We'd seen the best of Robbie and he never really looked that great in his second stint.
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He was amazing for us at west ham.
 
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