Levy's Plan

[billyiddo]

Billy is spot on IMO
I believe the last 2 years has been about a quantity fix and we have had some success with that as shown last season
But we always needed that star dust to come
People we envious of Arsenal and that’s exactly what they did (although they haven’t won a trophy since)
They are now replacing the player brought for this manager with ones they believe are better and that’s what we need to do
Our club trained issue won’t go away and for me is a historical structural issue. But beyond that we have gone around doing things the right way

I've often referred to Arsenals rebuild post Emery as a bit of a blueprint that we could be following - it's not exactly like for like but fairly close. Gutting the squad of higher earning deadwood, lowering the average age & wage bill before adding first team ready players in the obvious gaps in the first XI. I'd say we're around the point that they brought in Jesus & Zinchenko - again not like for like as we're targeting first teamers from non CL clubs rather than squad players from the likes of City but either way the crux is buying players you want to come in and raise the first teams level with PL proven players.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I've often referred to Arsenals rebuild post Emery as a bit of a blueprint that we could be following - it's not exactly like for like but fairly close. Gutting the squad of higher earning deadwood, lowering the average age & wage bill before adding first team ready players in the obvious gaps in the first XI. I'd say we're around the point that they brought in Jesus & Zinchenko - again not like for like as we're targeting first teamers from non CL clubs rather than squad players from the likes of City but either way the crux is buying players you want to come in and raise the first teams level with PL proven players.

TBF I think Jesus and Zichenko were poor buys IMO
MGW and Kudus are first team starter players… Bergvall, gray, Sarr, Philips, tel, Odobert, Vuskovic maybe Johnson too were all brought for their potential
That’s a gamble but one I’d back every day
I think after MGW we will sign another senior player and that may well be it for the window, but it would be a bloody good one IMO
And just to add Danso was brought as first team IMO. He can start without a clear decline in experience and quality
We need to be smart now with our Romanian man mountain and see if he is actually a good fit (we saw him have some very good games and some poor ones)

 

[billyiddo]

TBF I think Jesus and Zichenko were poor buys IMO
MGW and Kudus are first team starter players… Bergvall, gray, Sarr, Philips, tel, Odobert, Vuskovic maybe Johnson too were all brought for their potential
That’s a gamble but one I’d back every day
I think after MGW we will sign another senior player and that may well be it for the window, but it would be a bloody good one IMO
And just to add Danso was brought as first team IMO. He can start without a clear decline in experience and quality
We need to be smart now with our Romanian man mountain and see if he is actually a good fit (we saw him have some very good games and some poor ones)

They had a short shelf life but it's hard to argue that their team didn't take a step or two up following that summers activity. Maybe it was more the progression towards the managers style/gameplan rather then the signings but that'd be hard to decifer.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They had a short shelf life but it's hard to argue that their team didn't take a step or two up following that summers activity. Maybe it was more the progression towards the managers style/gameplan rather then the signings but that'd be hard to decifer.

I think it was the latter and timing
Jesus seems to barely ever play even then
But that’s bye the bye of course
What they have done is not be afraid to sell players brought quite recently
Kwior and Trosard and now rumoured to be available for sale for example

 

[billyiddo]

I think it was the latter and timing
Jesus seems to barely ever play even then
But that’s bye the bye of course
What they have done is not be afraid to sell players brought quite recently
Kwior and Trosard and now rumoured to be available for sale for example

Making quick judgement calls on players and not hanging about in seeing it through if they aren't up to snuff will be a good lesson learned from years gone by.

There's probably a few we're ready to let go already and some others who need to impress Frank this season otherwise they'll be moved on

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Making quick judgement calls on players and not hanging about in seeing it through if they aren't up to snuff will be a good lesson learned from years gone by.

There's probably a few we're ready to let go already and some others who need to impress Frank this season otherwise they'll be moved on

Yeah
I think they will be looking at some for sure
It is a continuous thing at smart clubs
As fans there are some really obvious ones like manor, gil, Richy
But the club would have to have a plan for a sale and also how or if they are replaced

 

[Lilbaz]

Yeah
I think they will be looking at some for sure
It is a continuous thing at smart clubs
As fans there are some really obvious ones like manor, gil, Richy
But the club would have to have a plan for a sale and also how or if they are replaced

How do you plan for a sale?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

How do you plan for a sale?

The plan for a sale by firstly deciding the player is sellable and a value
You also engage third parties to spread the word once you have that plan
It’s standard practice
My nephew has just started at derby and they have this detail for every player
I’m sure I even remember it being part of the all or nothing documentary when they had players pictures on a board to decide on their futures

 

[BrainOfLevy]

The reason transfers drag on and come in later is partly because we can't nail down our primary targets and so move on to others on the list - last summer as an example, we wanted Neto and was close to signing him - do we agree he's on the level of player we are talking about here? We supposedly wanted Gallagher too, do we agree he is also on the same level? All that's happening now is by virtue of being a EL winner and back in the CL and a little bit of convenience relating to a release clause and West Hams financial trouble we have been able to secure our primary targets where previously we couldn't/didn't. It's that simple.

Unless you had convinced yourself the only reason we missed out previously is because Levy is some kind of machiavellian character intend on scuppering deals for reasons then it's all just part of our continued progression with squad building.

It’s like you’re so close to seeing the point I’m trying to make but for whatever reason can’t bring yourself to get there.

What is the difference between failing to get our primary targets, and moving on to others, versus ACTUALLY GETTING OUR PRIMARY TARGETS?

That’s what I’m taking about. The club had agency previously. We could have moved more decisively on our top priorities earlier in the window before, and had them bedded in, and tried to push for the biggest trophies. We didn’t do that. We didn’t play in a world where we would genuinely compete with the other clubs that were actually challenging, we actually waited for them to get their business done and then moved in once they’d finished.

 

[Lilbaz]

The plan for a sale by firstly deciding the player is sellable and a value
You also engage third parties to spread the word once you have that plan
It’s standard practice
My nephew has just started at derby and they have this detail for every player
I’m sure I even remember it being part of the all or nothing documentary when they had players pictures on a board to decide on their futures

Ok. But you need a buyer.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ok. But you need a buyer.

Yeah
But that’s a different issue
The key is the plan to sell and what you do as and when they are sold
Smart coins do just that
Every player has a price and this is who we replace them with

 

[billyiddo]

It’s like you’re so close to seeing the point I’m trying to make but for whatever reason can’t bring yourself to get there.

What is the difference between failing to get our primary targets, and moving on to others, versus ACTUALLY GETTING OUR PRIMARY TARGETS?

That’s what I’m taking about. The club had agency previously. We could have moved more decisively on our top priorities earlier in the window before, and had them bedded in, and tried to push for the biggest trophies. We didn’t do that. We didn’t play in a world where we would genuinely compete with the other clubs that were actually challenging, we actually waited for them to get their business done and then moved in once they’d finished.

But I've explained this? / We now have a major trophy behind us and CL football/money while being further along in our squad building and having a settled transfer department - the net result is we're simply better placed in a wide variety of areas to secure our first choice targets - we have the budget, we have room in the squad, we have the settled transfer decision makers, we have a major trophy, we have CL football and so on and so on - we are now in a stronger position to move on transfer targets than we have been at any point in the current era (post Paratichi) yes at one point or another we have had some of those things in place but not all.

That said we still aren't making moves for players that are out of our scope and seemingly there hasn't been any competition for these players that could gazump us (fingers crossed with MGW on that front) as with last summers blue chip targets - I mean don't you guys appreciate that as things move forwards under a consistent setup things can improve? That with CL football and a major trophy behind us that it's easier to attract players? I feel like this is basic stuff tbh Why couldn't we get Neto & Gallagher over the line last summer? Because Chelsea came in for Neto and that's a simple choice for a player at that point, and unlike West Ham with Kudus Chelsea were in a position financially to not have to sell to a rival and had another buyer to deal with.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

But I've explained this? / We now have a major trophy behind us and CL football/money while being further along in our squad building and having a settled transfer department - the net result is we're simply better placed in a wide variety of areas to secure our first choice targets - we have the budget, we have room in the squad, we have the settled transfer decision makers, we have a major trophy, we have CL football and so on and so on - we are now in a stronger position to move on transfer targets than we have been at any point in the current era (post Paratichi) yes at one point or another we have had some of those things in place but not all.

That said we still aren't making moves for players that are out of our scope and seemingly there hasn't been any competition for these players that could gazump us (fingers crossed with MGW on that front) as with last summers blue chip targets - I mean don't you guys appreciate that as things move forwards under a consistent setup things can improve? That with CL football and a major trophy behind us that it's easier to attract players? I feel like this is basic stuff tbh Why couldn't we get Neto & Gallagher over the line last summer? Because Chelsea came in for Neto and that's a simple choice for a player at that point, and unlike West Ham with Kudus Chelsea were in a position financially to not have to sell to a rival and had another buyer to deal with.

Genuine question, if it comes out that there has been some additional investment or a mega sponsorship deal, would you agree that it might be a reason that we are doing things a bit differently this summer? Or would it all still have been part of the plan?

I just find your shrugging at why we couldn’t close deals with primary targets previously to be a bit blinkered, as if the club had no agency to do anything differently if they wanted to more seriously challenge for trophies. You agree that we targeted these sorts of players. So it wasn’t that we only wanted to fill out with youthful potential. Why didn’t we close them?

I find the explanation that ‘now we have CL money / a trophy’ to be a flimsy one to be honest. Top clubs meaningfully looking to accelerate haven’t needed to wait for CL football to start making it happen. Equally, we have had CL football before and it’s made no difference.

I honestly think you’re straining to claim that everything is business as usual / this is all part of the plan, because to say that things might now be a bit different is tacit acknowledgement that we could have been acting differently as a club previously. If we had a bit more money, if we had different people, if we got sponsorship in earlier, if ENIC put more in etc etc, then we would have challenged for the biggest trophies earlier. If we get to the end of this summer, with more proven first 11 signings, it will absolutely have been a window unlike any other previously. It will have been different. Literally, CL football has NEVER been a reason that we’ve attracted better players. Every other time we’ve had a chance to push on, we haven’t done so.

 

[Lilbaz]

Genuine question, if it comes out that there has been some additional investment or a mega sponsorship deal, would you agree that it might be a reason that we are doing things a bit differently this summer? Or would it all still have been part of the plan?

I just find your shrugging at why we couldn’t close deals with primary targets previously to be a bit blinkered, as if the club had no agency to do anything differently if they wanted to more seriously challenge for trophies. You agree that we targeted these sorts of players. So it wasn’t that we only wanted to fill out with youthful potential. Why didn’t we close them?

I find the explanation that ‘now we have CL money / a trophy’ to be a flimsy one to be honest. Top clubs meaningfully looking to accelerate haven’t needed to wait for CL football to start making it happen. Equally, we have had CL football before and it’s made no difference.

I honestly think you’re straining to claim that everything is business as usual / this is all part of the plan, because to say that things might now be a bit different is tacit acknowledgement that we could have been acting differently as a club previously. If we had a bit more money, if we had different people, if we got sponsorship in earlier, if ENIC put more in etc etc, then we would have challenged for the biggest trophies earlier. If we get to the end of this summer, with more proven first 11 signings, it will absolutely have been a window unlike any other previously. It will have been different. Literally, CL football has NEVER been a reason that we’ve attracted better players. Every other time we’ve had a chance to push on, we haven’t done so.

Wow. Yes there might be investment. But there might not be. There are other reasons that we could be buying players like we are. Tbh mgw, kudus and takai spending is not unusual for us in recent years.

We'll see.

 

[billyiddo]

Genuine question, if it comes out that there has been some additional investment or a mega sponsorship deal, would you agree that it might be a reason that we are doing things a bit differently this summer? Or would it all still have been part of the plan?

I just find your shrugging at why we couldn’t close deals with primary targets previously to be a bit blinkered, as if the club had no agency to do anything differently if they wanted to more seriously challenge for trophies. You agree that we targeted these sorts of players. So it wasn’t that we only wanted to fill out with youthful potential. Why didn’t we close them?

I find the explanation that ‘now we have CL money / a trophy’ to be a flimsy one to be honest. Top clubs meaningfully looking to accelerate haven’t needed to wait for CL football to start making it happen. Equally, we have had CL football before and it’s made no difference.

I honestly think you’re straining to claim that everything is business as usual / this is all part of the plan, because to say that things might now be a bit different is tacit acknowledgement that we could have been acting differently as a club previously. If we had a bit more money, if we had different people, if we got sponsorship in earlier, if ENIC put more in etc etc, then we would have challenged for the biggest trophies earlier. If we get to the end of this summer, with more proven first 11 signings, it will absolutely have been a window unlike any other previously. It will have been different. Literally, CL football has NEVER been a reason that we’ve attracted better players. Every other time we’ve had a chance to push on, we haven’t done so.

I'm not saying anything new wrt what I see as the plan - i know you've been away from the board for a while but it's all there in black & white, nothing i have said in this discussion isn't true to what I have been saying consistently over the past two or three seasons. I'm sure there would be posters who would jump in if I was talking BS

Are you actually reading my posts because you keep making points that I've already covered, it's very tiring - we've had CL football once post-Paratichi and that was when we didn't have all the other things in place that I had mentioned, there was no Lange at that point and Paratichi was battling his court case in Italy - we're clearly better positioned off the field this time around with Lange here and whatever other progress has been made on the transfer department since.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It still surprises me some of our fans believe we can signed top/in demand/"world class players. Few teams can pay the fees and wages but there are probably 4 clubs in Premiership and 4 in Europe ahead of us plus the appeal of living on the continent (I'd rather live abroad than in this dump) and tax deals. We may get lucky and be able to get the players they don't want or someone not on their radar. Playing continually in CL and winning things will make us more attractive few stars are interested in a project.we missed the opportunity when we got CL final when we might have been a more attractive choice.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I'm not saying anything new wrt what I see as the plan - i know you've been away from the board for a while but it's all there in black & white, nothing i have said in this discussion isn't true to what I have been saying consistently over the past two or three seasons. I'm sure there would be posters who would jump in if I was talking BS

Are you actually reading my posts because you keep making points that I've already covered, it's very tiring - we've had CL football once post-Paratichi and that was when we didn't have all the other things in place that I had mentioned, there was no Lange at that point and Paratichi was battling his court case in Italy - we're clearly better positioned off the field this time around with Lange here and whatever other progress has been made on the transfer department since as well as being further along with our squad rebuild.

I just find the idea that ‘now we have a settled transfer department’ to be the reason that we can suddenly move in the market in a way that suggests we want to win the league to be completely flimsy. That’s a reason that our signings will match a consistent profile in line with our tactical plan. It’s not a reason why we can be more aggressive regarding finances.

I don’t think you’re BSing, it just feels like you don’t want to acknowledge that things might be different. And I can only assume that’s because you want to stay true to this idea that it’s been the plan all along.

I’ll ask again - if it comes out that we’ve gotten a mega sponsorship deal or some additional investment, and we end the window with more proven PL signings, would you acknowledge that it might have been some pleasant deviation from the norm?

A club that wants to win the league doesn’t fail to land Moutinho, or Dybala, or any of the other ridiculous sagas we have had where the deal was just a bit too difficult to get over the line. We will probably also never know all of the players we might have been in for that went to more ambitious clubs first. If we’re now the ones moving more aggressive in the market, or at least to the same level as the other contending clubs, I’d say that’s a difference.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Wow. Yes there might be investment. But there might not be. There are other reasons that we could be buying players like we are. Tbh mgw, kudus and takai spending is not unusual for us in recent years.

We'll see.

I keep saying:

IF we get to the end of the summer and we have signed MORE *proven* first 11 players in addition to MGW, then I’d say it’s been different.

IF we get to end of summer and we’ve signed a couple of decent players from France and Germany to beef out the squad, then I’d agree it’s been a pretty similar window to years gone by.

We shall indeed see.

 

[Lilbaz]

I keep saying:

IF we get to the end of the summer and we have signed MORE *proven* first 11 players in addition to MGW, then I’d say it’s been different.

IF we get to end of summer and we’ve signed a couple of decent players from France and Germany to beef out the squad, then I’d agree it’s been a pretty similar window to years gone by.

We shall indeed see.

Different why? You seem to have a reason in your head. Share it. Have we been taken over by saudis? Has vinai taken over? What? You might be right.

We bought 4 strikers in the first year redknapp joined. Pav, defoe, keane and crouch. Let alone all the other players.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Different why? You seem to have a reason in your head. Share it. Have we been taken over by saudis? Has vinai taken over? What? You might be right.

We bought 4 strikers in the first year redknapp joined. Pav, defoe, keane and crouch. Let alone all the other players.

I don’t know for sure, and I’m willing to wait until the end of the summer to see. It may be investment. It may be mega sponsorship. It may be VV’s influence. It may be that we’ve gotten the club to a point in any other respect where by we can act differently this summer, in line with the plan we have been building towards. I’m less concerned with what the reason actually is, then just acknowledging that it *might* be different.

Which is why I say, if we’re at the end of summer, MGW and Kudus have been the two biggest additions, alongside a reserve from Japan and a couple of squad players from the continent, then that’s a pretty similar window to previously. Not much different, and it probably was just a combination of release clause and motivated seller that got those first two deals over the line unusually quickly.

The reason we can say there’s a fair chance we’re acting differently though is because that we don’t usually move this quickly on major signings. Maybe on one relatively early, never usually two in quick succession. Before sales have been taken into account, and when there is the suggestion that there is more to come.

We’ve also negotiated with clubs that are motivated sellers before. And we’ve taken it right to the end of the window to get the best deal. That suggests caring about the deal more than getting the player settled to make an impact. Where as with Kudus, there seemed to be one strong initial bid, we upped it, and we got him. In the space of a few days. That doesn’t usually happen.

Teams that want to win the league move on their primary targets early, they get them settled and performing. And those targets are usually proven players. To achieve this, I think we will have to act differently to how we’ve gone about things before. Let’s see if that’s the case come September!