Ange departs

[ricky2tricky4city]

I see what you are driving at with the idea that Ange’s methods would meet a limit but I would just counter that this sounds like a lot of the doubt he has experienced throughout his entire career. I think in terms of the start we made under him, and the underlying numbers we were showing this season before the injuries, I don’t think his methods were meeting a limit. We were going to some big teams and giving them a bloody nose.

But ultimately what Ange needs is trust and belief in him. I think his previous clubs gave it to him after subpar first seasons. We just never gave him the chance to have a settled side, with enough depth and experience. I would have dearly loved to see how it turned out. I really believe it would have been great, and I think the players knew it too. We have a squad that has worked under some of the best managers in the world, we’ve had World Cup winners etc. If there was any sense from our players that Ange had reached the limit of his capabilities at Spurs it would have shown from them. They wouldn’t support someone who they thought would make them worse, or reduce their chances of success. We just needed ENIC to believe. IMO

People/professionals meeting their limit is just a reality. I didn't doubt Ange (just like I thought Prince Naseem was ridiculously talented)...I like unorthodox, out of the box thinkers.

He scores massively in motivation and getting the players on board with him.
BUT (it was coming)...if I was to compare him to Poch's (the deepest and most detailed comparison i can offer due to living and breathing this club) first two seasons...it's way off on the football side. With Poch...I felt the steps we were making, the pieces coming together, the tactics imbedding, solutions being provided. The control, the flow of the team. A well oiled machine, greater than the sum of its parts.
I can honestly say I wouldn't confidently tell you that I was witnessing any of that week to week with Ange. He has excuses (that none of us know the full detail of). Perhaps the vision he has just rises up out of the level of play we've been seeing in his first two years?. I just don't see that scenario happen often in football.
I'm more inclined to think he's hit his limit. And there is no shame in that, the smartest of operators (clubs, managers,players) make up this league. And they are in your face, week in week out.

He leaves with his reputation intact and will probably get the opportunity to debunk all I've written

 

[thfcsteff]

Losing Ange and curiosity about what the fan base thought. Some perverse desire to make sure a man often misunderstood gets a fair hearing in some random tiny corner of the internet. And the feelings that it stirred about ENIC.

Have a crack at it my friend. Your fresh voice might help. Mine has been binned off by some as too prejudiced, and has even invited observations on the type of 'person I am'. I wish you luck.

p.s. I will also say in this period I have had some fantastic exchanges via PM with people who hold a different viewpoint/opinion, which have frankly kept me contributing here. Your return is also very encouraging.

 

[thfcsteff]

Every season will have contexts. Every team will have challenges to overcome. There will always be an excuse.

You use that. We don't accept it.

It's not personal or anything. It's just what it is.

'I use what'? Looking at all angles of a situation rather than one? Yes thanks, I will always do that...amusingly, you make that sound like a bad thing.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Do United really believe Amorin is the answer? I don't know, but they have to give him the go, now hes there. I think with him it's the time for me. He joined mid-season and he plays a system that their team wasn't suited to, but United are a very poor side and have been for a while, masked by the occasional "moment's player." That they have still struggled under him doesn't surprise me. Like you say theres no magic formula and Amorin's 3 at the back base is as questionable as anything Ange tried. Should they invest in his vision despite their last year, I think so, yes, see if he can implement his system well.

Why not the same with Ange, even give the EL win? Well hes not a mid-season appointment and we've seen enough to understand his precepts. I like his philosophy, I enjoy the ideals by which he wants the game played, but the ideals aren't enough. Some pragmatism of his circumstances was necessary, and I never felt that from him. All season I felt like we weren't a million miles off from what he must have wanted, but understanding that we weren't there yet, he needed to adjust that approach. I get the injuries but even more so that's when you moderate the system.

Do you believe in his vision? Do you believe signing more players for him gets the level of quality his system demands. Which areas? Which players? I just see people arguing that pretty much everyone is of the required quality already. There's a lot of hope but little substance as to how he could actually change things, there were no real signs of progress, of ways to counter some of the glaring flaws, just more of the same largely. Even with the uber defensive play in the EL was poor, still no balance to our play. I think with the addition of some better players and a fortunate run with injuries that yes we could have seen better from him league wise but at its core his system is massively flawed and I don't think Tottenham have the ability to address those flaws with the transfers needed and Ange didn't seem interested in them either. We need a coach he can maximize what they have. Not a system that requires us to play excellently just to get a draw.

I just don’t really buy that Amorim ‘deserves’ to be backed any more than Ange does just because he came mid season. To go along with your original line, either it’s tactically suspect or it isn’t. If Amorim gets a pass for coming mid season, I could argue Ange deserves a pass for winning a trophy and never losing the dressing room, because he was making decisions and holding together a culture that would have seen us into his third season.

At the end of the day it just comes down to faith, Ange has always asked for ‘true believers’ because to play his way, to believe in the benefits it ultimately gives you, requires real bravery and a confidence to do things differently. I really liked his fit with Spurs because if he have any intention of actually challenging for titles we need to do things differently under ENIC. But his risk taking threatens their security of predictable revenue.

As for which players or which tactics…honestly yes under Ange, I felt we would have gotten back to top 6 minimum under him, as we would any other manager. But I wanted to see Ange with a full season with a normal amount of injuries, a more experienced squad with more depth and a culture strengthened through winning. If we could play our preferred centre backs more than ten times in the league. If we didn’t go basically three months 11 players out and a game every 3 days.

I ultimately just believe and have faith that having got through this tough period, we would have reached the point that usually happens with his clubs. The players get used to the physical demands. They are comfortable taking extreme risks. The momentum builds. We probably needed a better VDV back up, and a few other signings here and there. But I think we had a great first 11 and a squad that was getting close. We just literally never saw a consistent few months where he could actually be said to be implementing it.

I said in the previous pages that I don’t believe there is some magic combination of idealism vs pragmatism that is a cheat code. It’s all just choices with trade offs. I think it’s about allowing a vision to take shape and get implemented so we can see it in its full form. We never really saw it with Ange.

 

[Lilbaz]

'I use what'? Looking at all angles of a situation rather than one? Yes thanks, I will always do that...amusingly, you make that sound like a bad thing.

The situation is, do you think ange is the best manager to take us into next season?
For me it's no.
Do i think thomas frank would do a better job next season than ange? Yes.

Thanks ange. But goodbye.

I think we were awful last season. No cohesion.
Our players weren't getting developed. Infact they looked to be regressing.
Our style of play caused lots of injuries that if kept on would see our players permanently lose value and ability.
I think there would have been a serious risk of relegation. The only time i've see us that bad was under ramos in the 2 points from 8 games stretch.

So yes i am very happy we won the europa. I 100% believe it was the right decision to let him go.

All this "context" is you saying. "You are wrong, this is why".

 

[thfcsteff]

The situation is, do you think ange is the best manager to take us into next season?
For me it's no.
Do i think thomas frank would do a better job next season than ange? Yes.

Thanks ange. But goodbye.

I think we were awful last season. No cohesion.
Our players weren't getting developed. Infact they looked to be regressing.
Our style of play caused lots of injuries that if kept on would see our players permanently lose value and ability.
I think there would have been a serious risk of relegation. The only time i've see us that bad was under ramos in the 2 points from 8 games stretch.

So yes i am very happy we won the europa. I 100% believe it was the right decision to let him go.

All this "context" is you saying. "You are wrong, this is why".

A giant assumption.
For the record, absolutely wrong (with regards to what you are stating I am saying).
If you choose to take it that way, that is your choice, and frankly, it ceases to be my business.

 

[Roland Beurre]

But I wanted to see Ange with a full season with a normal amount of injuries, a more experienced squad with more depth and a culture strengthened through winning. If we could play our preferred centre backs more than ten times in the league. If we didn’t go basically three months 11 players out and a game every 3 days.

General Haig probably argued much the same after the Battle of the Somme. The worry for many (and I write as someone who was "Ange in") was that an abnormal number of injuries was baked into Ange's style. As you say, maybe the players would've adapted.

"As one French officer put it 'our neighbours, the British, are slower than us because less experienced. Their superb infantry, superbly equipped, is very brave but undergoing a costly apprenticeship'." - https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/command-on-the-somme

Apologies to those of you who thought they were tuning into "The rest is football" and got "The rest is history" instead.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

General Haig probably argued much the same after the Battle of the Somme. The worry for many (and I write as someone who was "Ange in") was that an abnormal number of injuries was baked into Ange's style. As you say, maybe the players would've adapted.

"As one French officer put it 'our neighbours, the British, are slower than us because less experienced. Their superb infantry, superbly equipped, is very brave but undergoing a costly apprenticeship'." - https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/command-on-the-somme

Apologies to those of you who thought they were tuning into "The rest is football" and got "The rest is history" instead.

I see this argument. I just think that, again like at all of his clubs, the injuries usually work themselves out once the players are adapted. And if our squad thought seriously that Ange was putting them at risk, he wouldn’t be as beloved as he clearly is.

Again for me it goes back to needing to have faith in the idea. We gave up on it for ENIC reasons, and we’ll never know what it could have been.

 

[thfcsteff]

I see this argument. I just think that, again like at all of his clubs, the injuries usually work themselves out once the players are adapted. And if our squad thought seriously that Ange was putting them at risk, he wouldn’t be as beloved as he clearly is.

Again for me it goes back to needing to have faith in the idea. We gave up on it for ENIC reasons, and we’ll never know what it could have been.

Indeed.

Pragmatis est Facere...

 

[billyiddo]

I think at the start of this season there was absolute progress to playing his style. I do think underlying numbers were strong (we were below where we should have been on xG and had league leading PPDA stats etc) and the eye test said a lot of our dropped points were down to poor finishing. I think we would have ‘progressed to mean’ had the season not been derailed by injuries.

I remember feeling, even against Villa at home for example, even if we went 1-0 down we were going to score and probably score more. I think we’d got there as a team and would have gotten back to it this season. I can’t prove it, I just have belief in it based on following his career, as well as looking at underlying data not the results.

I mentioned a couple of pages back based on the Montgomery interview that what we saw from December onwards was not Ange ball, it was an attempt to maintain the principles but adapt a bit. So I give him a massive pass for getting away from implementing his system after that period.

I think our xga was quite low at the beginning of the season, or at least in comparison to our xg at the other end, but the eye test says to me that the way we were defending was not sustainable as it relied on too much last ditch defending, eg too many balls over the top giving teams numerical advantage in our final third or playing with our defenders facing their own goal with lots of space to play in to and around. Our defenders were performing well in those sorts of situations tbf hence the low xg, but over the long term I don't think you can rely on defenders maintaining that high level at all times and when it inevitably falters you will present the opposition with chances that will get punished too regularly at this level - at the level Ange has managed at previously you could probably get away with the opposition having a large number of those sorts of chances as the quality was lower and so they would not convert in to goals or exploit the openings at the same rate as they do in the PL/in England.

 

[Mikey10]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1931840550245986465

I’d love half an hour in a classroom with him to work on punctuation.

 

[afsoc4life]

Again, I’ll repeat, this is what we saw with so many managers including Ange too except he won us a trophy
Remember losing to a team with a manger in prison?
Or to a crap team from Belgium?
How about a poor Italian side
Norwich at home in The FA cup
anyone…

One very painful point for me is the fact that we didn't win the first edition of the Europa Conference league. The performance in Europe was criminal. I can boldly say 'Give Ange that same squad' and he would do better with it.

Not to mention our performances in the FA and League Cups before Ange. Players turned up often with the wrong mentalities.

 

[Mikey10]

One very painful point for me is the fact that we didn't win the first edition of the Europa Conference league. The performance in Europe was criminal. I can boldly say 'Give Ange that same squad' and he would do better with it.

Not to mention our performances in the FA and League Cups before Ange. Players turned up often with the wrong mentalities.

If only they’d shown then that ‘Win at all costs’ mentality we saw in the PL this season.

Oh, hang on a minute…

 

[DTA]

But we did win
I was there
We didn’t need to blow united apart because they all executed the plan
I didn’t see good fortune, I saw a real execution of a strategy
The good fortune I assume you mean the clearance off the line from the one time a spurs player made a mistake (Vic)
1-0 in a cup game is as good as 10 - 0 because it’s a cup
So many other managers have came here and failed in the games that mattered for so many reasons (many we won’t know) and many had better squads and players
Ange did something they couldn’t do
Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have gone but does mean you can’t just ignore those performances that mattered too

Yes we did win. And like I said I’m thankful for that and his part in it. I’m not diminishing the win or his role.

Maybe the motivation of our player was spot on, maybe he mentally prepared them better than others had. And that’s all to his credit.

Or maybe he is a “lucky general “ in the Napoleon sense because he definitely ain’t no master tactician

there was a hell of a lot of luck involved… and no I’m not talking about VDVs goal-line clearance that goes under individual heroics.

I’m talking about Fernandes’ free header that it was almost more difficult to not hit the target from. I’m talking about the ball hitting the side netting or wizzing an inch past our goal with Vic motionless the connection a cm different and that’s 3 goals right there.

I’m talking about a lovely team move and cross by Sarr hitting shaw and rebounding towards their own goal before Johnson gets a stud on it and creates that lovely moment.

By pointing these out I’m not taking anything away from the victory, or what it meant to all of us. I’m just stating facts.

We won… and others like Poch didn’t get us over the line. But Poch is 10x the manager Ange is, and if he had that good luck in the later stages of cups that he brought us to we would have won a lot more…. Without ‘sacrificing the league’

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes we did win. And like I said I’m thankful for that and his part in it. I’m not diminishing the win or his role.

Maybe the motivation of our player was spot on, maybe he mentally prepared them better than others had. And that’s all to his credit.

Or maybe he is a “lucky general “ in the Napoleon sense because he definitely ain’t no master tactician

there was a hell of a lot of luck involved… and no I’m not talking about VDVs goal-line clearance that goes under individual heroics.

I’m talking about Fernandes’ free header that it was almost more difficult to not hit the target from. I’m talking about the ball hitting the side netting or wizzing an inch past our goal with Vic motionless the connection a cm different and that’s 3 goals right there.

I’m talking about a lovely team move and cross by Sarr hitting shaw and rebounding towards their own goal before Johnson gets a stud on it and creates that lovely moment.

By pointing these out I’m not taking anything away from the victory, or what it meant to all of us. I’m just stating facts.

We won… and others like Poch didn’t get us over the line. But Poch is 10x the manager Ange is, and if he had that good luck in the later stages of cups that he brought us to we would have won a lot more…. Without ‘sacrificing the league’

Luck
Clearly that is why then
Wow

 

[Bedfordspurs]

One very painful point for me is the fact that we didn't win the first edition of the Europa Conference league. The performance in Europe was criminal. I can boldly say 'Give Ange that same squad' and he would do better with it.

Not to mention our performances in the FA and League Cups before Ange. Players turned up often with the wrong mentalities.

It’s a culture in the club and has been for years
We have seen it with so many managers
But Ange was clearly “lucky” according to some

 

[DTA]

Luck
Clearly that is why then
Wow

So luck plays and played no part?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

This is literally what has happened with Ange at every club he’s been at, until it starts working beyond what anyone thought possible.

I’m not saying we definitely would have won the league with him, but I would have liked to see him with a reasonably fit and deep squad that was fully adjusted to the system and the physicality of it. That’s what I was hoping from the third season. The underlying numbers at the start of this season suggested we were on course to be one of the best teams in the league. (A lot of our dropped points at the start were down to terrible finishing, not the system).

Disagree that dropped points at the beginning of the season weren't down to the system. They absolutely were down to the system. The system, even when functioning well and leading to dominance in games and chance creation is fundamentally a high risk system. It leaves space to be exploited. Teams in the PL are simply able to exploit that space on a far more frequent basis than opponents Ange has traditionally faced in his career. In those early games we did dominate possession and create chances. The chances we created were not high percentage chances where you'd be scoring 9/10 however we were putting teams under a lot of pressure. However:
- Vardy left in space: BANG 1-1
- Defensive line pushing right up at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, one ball splits them: BANG 1-2
- Gabriel given free run at goal: BANG 0-1
- Keep pushing high despite being 2-0 up away to Brighton: BANG BANG BANG 2-3

Need i go on?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So luck plays and played no part?

No I don’t think so
If they had hit the post and had some unlucky chances I’d say maybe
I didn’t see that
It reminded me of a boxer landing the right punches vs one throwing haymakers (or in their case maguires)
Everything United tried we had a clear answer for
People hated it because it was about control
We controlled the variables so nothing else could affect the game

 

[DTA]

No I don’t think so
If they had hit the post and had some unlucky chances I’d say maybe
I didn’t see that
It reminded me of a boxer landing the right punches vs one throwing haymakers (or in their case maguires)
Everything United tried we had a clear answer for
People hated it because it was about control
We controlled the variables so nothing else could affect the game

How about their 3 chances I mentioned above? How about Shaw’s ‘involvement’ in our goal?

We are talking about cms here and there which would have resulted in a different result.