Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
We had the players
They were brick and thought they would walk that game
It’s a recurring theme here
Hence why we lost so many Europe games for example as well as limping in the cups
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Ange departs
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
They were brick and thought they would walk that game
It’s a recurring theme here
Hence why we lost so many Europe games for example as well as limping in the cups
Bishop
Steffen Iversen
We don't have the players to play Ange's system to a high level period. That's a tactical failing on his part because he either wouldn't or couldn't accept that and refused or was unable to adapt to that reality.
If he had shown even a modicum of adaptability I would have been happy for him to stay but inflexible coaches even the ones who ultimately play a style of football I enjoy tend to fail due to that unflinching devotion to their ideal.
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
It’s mentality and mindset
Thank pre dates Ange
The quick was about the fa cup hame but we have seen many many examples of spurs players struggling against far weaker sides
It’s why the way we won the Europa was so unique
His tactics were more than good enough to win that cup game but the players were brick in that game
fernadez
Simon Davies
If that was the case, isn't that just a failure on the managers part then to motivate his players? And player motivation and buy in is what Ange is know for.
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
Again, I’ll repeat, this is what we saw with so many managers including Ange too except he won us a trophy
Remember losing to a team with a manger in prison?
Or to a crap team from Belgium?
How about a poor Italian side
Norwich at home in The FA cup
anyone…
johnola
Simon Davies
“I have no doubt he comes in with total belief and almost arrogance about his methods/system. It works after all.”
This thread is crazy. Giving it up.
Bishop
Steffen Iversen
Irrelevant. We did not have the players capable of playing his system to a high level. No amount of correct mentality or mindset will turn Johnson into Yamal or rewind the clock and get Son finishing like Raphina once again or make Maddison the conductor that Pedri is.
Ange had a really open and attractive system but it didn't take into account the actual quality of the players at his disposal and that's why ultimately he's been fired.
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
very relevant because the original post I was responding too was about us struggling in a cup hame against weak opposition
It’s standard here and is mind set related Simon as much as anything
Junior19
Adel Taarabt
I've been offline for a few days, on a camping trip, and not been able to vent my feelings about the events. Although I know why the decision was made, I understand the arguments for it, and to a certain extent can agree with some of them, I really cannot process this just like that.
For one thing, those who were baying for blood: You got it, you got your pound of flesh. Now be quiet, or be gone!
Whoever the new manager will be, I will do as I always do: I will support him, cheer for him, and I will hope for eternal success to his name. Untill he is not our manager any more. However. Knowing some of our lot as we do, we know this does not ring true for all of us. Some of us apparently takes more satisfaction by letting their darker feelings dominate, letting their anger and fears dominate their thoughts and arguments.
As several has pointed out in this and other threads, letting Ange go now is a gamble Levy and the board _cannot_ lose and continue to have any credibility left. They absolutely HAVE to get this right, and rather immediately. If we can't land our nr 1 target this week or the next at the latest, I'd say they've roostered it up. If we end up with some Carlos Manageraball from nowhere as a 4th or 5th target, they are toast. Heck, even if we get Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp or Ancelotti, or any other impossible guy and they fail to qualify for CL and/or win something next season, they are toast.
Now, I'm no less human than the next guy, I've had frustrations with managers, I've had disagreements with how they have set up teams, the style of play, etc. A good measure of how their tenure with us has been for me has usually been the feeling I got in my guts when the news of their sacking came. It's either a sucker-punch, or a relief.
I've never felt worse than when Hoddle, Jol and Pochettino were sacked. Hoddle, because he, well... he's Hoddle!! Jol, because he made Tottenham fun again after a _very_ very long time of brick. And Pochettino for really being the manager of the first Tottenham-team I felt -secure- with. I saw us line up against anybody in the league, and I had no fear! For a Spurs-fan of the nineties and the noughties, that was a rather unique feeling. And of course, because he lifted us right up there, where we could almost touch the sun. Unfortunatly our wax-wings melted and we plummeted to the ground again.
Likewise, the feeling I got when He-who-must-not-be-named-but-who's-name-starts-with-Mou was sacked was more of relief, puzzlement, and exitement. When Conte had his blow-out, the signs and portents had been many and long coming. So it felt more like a natural culmination of a far to long, boring movie. Just glad to get out.
As for Ange, I will cherish him, I will look at the pictures of him with that magnificient trophy, and I will smile, and I will remember the tears that streamed down my face, making my 9 year old daughter who couldn't sleep and watched the last minutes of that game in Bilbao with me ask if Daddy was all right, and I got to tell her that I was just so happy as I had not been in 9 years, the last time I cried like that was when she was born. And that it was bloody marvellous, and also, rather silly, because it was all because of a game of football. And I will remember the big smile, the big hug and that she said "if it makes you happy, it is not silly!" (Clever little girl, must have that from her mother...)
But even without that trophy, I will hold Ange high on my lists of Spurs-managers. Many has used that rather famous picture of our entire team on the half-way line against Chelsea in season 1, and some use it to ridicule Ange and us, other points to that game and says that's where the wheels fell off his wagon. I love it, for the same reason I loved Ossies insane all-out-attacks. It said something about how you want to go about stuff. It is about glory, it is about going out and beating the other lot, not to wait for him to die of boredom. It is about Audere est Facere.
And you can say what the fudge else you want about Ange Postecoglou, but you cannot deny that he has balls bigger than most, and that he dares. He dares.
Anyone who has a problem with this has a problem with the Tottenham Way. Fret not, there are clubs who suit you better, with logos with hammers, flowers or stupid mottos like "Victory Grows Through Harmony". But at Spurs, to dare is to do!
I hope Ange goes somewhere he can prove us wrong. Perhaps even to a club in the Premier Leage, or someone we might cross paths with in Europe. If all goes well, we will be flying high under a new manager, and can welcome him back and give him the ovations he deserve. Or, as I half fear, we end up losing to his team, lambasting our new sacrificial goat, and scolding whoever may be our manager at that point.
Ah well. Scribbles, scribbles. It's out now, and it is far to many key-presses to delete it all, so here goes...
For one thing, those who were baying for blood: You got it, you got your pound of flesh. Now be quiet, or be gone!
Whoever the new manager will be, I will do as I always do: I will support him, cheer for him, and I will hope for eternal success to his name. Untill he is not our manager any more. However. Knowing some of our lot as we do, we know this does not ring true for all of us. Some of us apparently takes more satisfaction by letting their darker feelings dominate, letting their anger and fears dominate their thoughts and arguments.
As several has pointed out in this and other threads, letting Ange go now is a gamble Levy and the board _cannot_ lose and continue to have any credibility left. They absolutely HAVE to get this right, and rather immediately. If we can't land our nr 1 target this week or the next at the latest, I'd say they've roostered it up. If we end up with some Carlos Manageraball from nowhere as a 4th or 5th target, they are toast. Heck, even if we get Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp or Ancelotti, or any other impossible guy and they fail to qualify for CL and/or win something next season, they are toast.
Now, I'm no less human than the next guy, I've had frustrations with managers, I've had disagreements with how they have set up teams, the style of play, etc. A good measure of how their tenure with us has been for me has usually been the feeling I got in my guts when the news of their sacking came. It's either a sucker-punch, or a relief.
I've never felt worse than when Hoddle, Jol and Pochettino were sacked. Hoddle, because he, well... he's Hoddle!! Jol, because he made Tottenham fun again after a _very_ very long time of brick. And Pochettino for really being the manager of the first Tottenham-team I felt -secure- with. I saw us line up against anybody in the league, and I had no fear! For a Spurs-fan of the nineties and the noughties, that was a rather unique feeling. And of course, because he lifted us right up there, where we could almost touch the sun. Unfortunatly our wax-wings melted and we plummeted to the ground again.
Likewise, the feeling I got when He-who-must-not-be-named-but-who's-name-starts-with-Mou was sacked was more of relief, puzzlement, and exitement. When Conte had his blow-out, the signs and portents had been many and long coming. So it felt more like a natural culmination of a far to long, boring movie. Just glad to get out.
As for Ange, I will cherish him, I will look at the pictures of him with that magnificient trophy, and I will smile, and I will remember the tears that streamed down my face, making my 9 year old daughter who couldn't sleep and watched the last minutes of that game in Bilbao with me ask if Daddy was all right, and I got to tell her that I was just so happy as I had not been in 9 years, the last time I cried like that was when she was born. And that it was bloody marvellous, and also, rather silly, because it was all because of a game of football. And I will remember the big smile, the big hug and that she said "if it makes you happy, it is not silly!" (Clever little girl, must have that from her mother...)
But even without that trophy, I will hold Ange high on my lists of Spurs-managers. Many has used that rather famous picture of our entire team on the half-way line against Chelsea in season 1, and some use it to ridicule Ange and us, other points to that game and says that's where the wheels fell off his wagon. I love it, for the same reason I loved Ossies insane all-out-attacks. It said something about how you want to go about stuff. It is about glory, it is about going out and beating the other lot, not to wait for him to die of boredom. It is about Audere est Facere.
And you can say what the fudge else you want about Ange Postecoglou, but you cannot deny that he has balls bigger than most, and that he dares. He dares.
Anyone who has a problem with this has a problem with the Tottenham Way. Fret not, there are clubs who suit you better, with logos with hammers, flowers or stupid mottos like "Victory Grows Through Harmony". But at Spurs, to dare is to do!
I hope Ange goes somewhere he can prove us wrong. Perhaps even to a club in the Premier Leage, or someone we might cross paths with in Europe. If all goes well, we will be flying high under a new manager, and can welcome him back and give him the ovations he deserve. Or, as I half fear, we end up losing to his team, lambasting our new sacrificial goat, and scolding whoever may be our manager at that point.
Ah well. Scribbles, scribbles. It's out now, and it is far to many key-presses to delete it all, so here goes...
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Losing Ange and curiosity about what the fan base thought. Some perverse desire to make sure a man often misunderstood gets a fair hearing in some random tiny corner of the internet. And the feelings that it stirred about ENIC.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
This is what I don’t understand. There is no magic coaching formula. There is no perfect combination of idealism and pragmatism. All choices and all philosophies have trade offs.
Is Amorim’s performance at United this year a tactical failing? I think it’s blatantly obvious they believe in his approach, are going to try and sign the players to make it happen, and will probably be a lot more successful next year.
They had belief in something for the long term benefits. For whatever reason we didn’t show Ange that same belief, and we’ll never know what could have been.
Silly McSilly Face
Ronnie Rosenthal
Amorim hasn't had a full season or a summer window. This isn't really his squad. However if they carry on like they have done next season he will be toast.
Postecoglu has been here two seasons. And every quarter has delivered declining results.
1st 19 games
DWWWWDWWWWLLLDLWWWL (36 pts)
2nd 19 games
WDWDWLWWLWDWLLLLWLW (30 pts)
3rd 19 games
DWLLWWLWLWLWDLLWLLD (24 pts)
4th 19 games
LLLLWWWLDLLWLLLDLLL (11 pts)
It's not "for what ever reason"....what reasonable belief is there that this 2 year trend is going to be arrested?
ricky2tricky4city
Luka Modric
When he came in he had known nothing but it working......get it?
The thing is this. It’s not just about the points, the performances went to shít as well. I would be more open to keeping him, if despite the results, statistics or through the eye test we were actually getting better. We were not, and I’m really not sure how anyone could argue with that.
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
The points are the points and can’t be defended but can have some context added if we want to recycle and start arguments
What I’ll say is unlike, any manger in the last 15 or so years he got the team to turn up when it mattered. That’s been the exception at this club
And now the next man will come in
Silly McSilly Face
Ronnie Rosenthal
Exactly. Every stat says we were getting worse but more importantly, every game was getting worse to watch. It was a constant deterioration in performances and results. And I don't buy this "throwing the league" stuff either. The players brought in for the players rested for the Europa games should have become more cohesive as they were regularly playing together in the PL. They should have gradually looked more fluid and more organised and have been highly motivated to prove their worth and give him a selection headache for the big games. None of that happened. The games just got worse and worse....
Bishop
Steffen Iversen
Do United really believe Amorin is the answer? I don't know, but they have to give him the go, now hes there. I think with him it's the time for me. He joined mid-season and he plays a system that their team wasn't suited to, but United are a very poor side and have been for a while, masked by the occasional "moment's player." That they have still struggled under him doesn't surprise me. Like you say theres no magic formula and Amorin's 3 at the back base is as questionable as anything Ange tried. Should they invest in his vision despite their last year, I think so, yes, see if he can implement his system well.
Why not the same with Ange, even give the EL win? Well hes not a mid-season appointment and we've seen enough to understand his precepts. I like his philosophy, I enjoy the ideals by which he wants the game played, but the ideals aren't enough. Some pragmatism of his circumstances was necessary, and I never felt that from him. All season I felt like we weren't a million miles off from what he must have wanted, but understanding that we weren't there yet, he needed to adjust that approach. I get the injuries but even more so that's when you moderate the system.
Do you believe in his vision? Do you believe signing more players for him gets the level of quality his system demands. Which areas? Which players? I just see people arguing that pretty much everyone is of the required quality already. There's a lot of hope but little substance as to how he could actually change things, there were no real signs of progress, of ways to counter some of the glaring flaws, just more of the same largely. Even with the uber defensive play in the EL was poor, still no balance to our play. I think with the addition of some better players and a fortunate run with injuries that yes we could have seen better from him league wise but at its core his system is massively flawed and I don't think Tottenham have the ability to address those flaws with the transfers needed and Ange didn't seem interested in them either. We need a coach he can maximize what they have. Not a system that requires us to play excellently just to get a draw.
Let’s not rewrite history. Yes we won and I’m really thankful for that and his part in it.
But it’s not like we blew Man U apart. We had something like one shot on goal. And if not for some individual heroics and some good fortune the result would have been very different. And that’s against a crap Man U side.
Edit: and if we didn’t actually win that game, there would be almost no reason at all to keep him.
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
But we did win
I was there
We didn’t need to blow united apart because they all executed the plan
I didn’t see good fortune, I saw a real execution of a strategy
The good fortune I assume you mean the clearance off the line from the one time a spurs player made a mistake (Vic)
1-0 in a cup game is as good as 10 - 0 because it’s a cup
So many other managers have came here and failed in the games that mattered for so many reasons (many we won’t know) and many had better squads and players
Ange did something they couldn’t do
Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have gone but does mean you can’t just ignore those performances that mattered too