Ange in or out?

[Mr Gogolak]

Or he was a very loyal club servant, and highly experienced senior player, simply stating what he saw.

As a fanbase, it really is time to stop looking for excuses for the utter s hitshow that has unfolded since we appointed a bloke who is so obviously out of his depth. Let’s call it for what it is and move on.

Just to be clear, I can't wait for him to be gone: I've reached the stage where I can't even watch full games! However, beyond our current situation, I think it's interesting that training sessions have become more and more of a talking point amongst fans. If you remember, Mourinho was criticised for his training methods too. On the other hand, Back in the George Graham days I remember endless discussions about his tactics, but we hardly ever touched on the training. In a way, it was considered as the players' and the manager's 'private life'.

In the span of three decades, there's been a huge increase in the level of tactical awareness of the average "internet fan". However, very few people - bar those who played at a decent/higher level - really know what a "good" training session should be about. What do they do in training? It's still a mystery. Coaches and players are rarely questioned about that and when they do, they usually give vague answer. Even Dier's answer could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Again, I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm just intrigued.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Is that true? I’ve found us an awful watch for over a year, and the results have, by and large, been terrible.

Well I'm separating "exciting to watch" from "effectiveness" here in that matches have been painful to watch for a while, but we've generally managed to find overloads and score consistently in games.

 

[Jordinho]

We keep speculating about what happens or doesn't happen on the training ground but one interesting thing to notice - I think - is that in spite of our abysmal results, very few players complain about Postecoglou or his methods. There have been a few noises coming from Romero and Maddison but, at the same time, a few players have gone out of their way to defend him - including Kulusevski.

How long did it take for the players to complain about Espirito Santo (who had much better results) or revolt against Mourinho? In a different context, I remember reading the players were baffled by Matthaus' training methods when he was managing Hungary, a long time ago.

Kulusevski's example is an interesting one. He played for Juve in what we can only assume is one of the most professional set-up in the world and yet he never had a bad word about Postecoglou's training methods. I'm not trying to make a point, by the way - I just find it... strange? curious? interesting? that something that appears amateurish to us fans isn't picked up on by the players themselves.

It's because he lets them play football in training. Kids don't enjoy spending time on tactical drills or improving any weaknesses in their game, they just want to kick the ball around and have fun. I don't expect professional footballers to be that much more mature.

 

[veryoldspur]

You're right. I'm just speculating. And just to be clear, I didnt want Ange in the first place and have been a vocal critic on here throughout his time. I am speculating as i too find it odd that there's been no clear signs of players complaining or downing tools and we are still up there in terms of running/effort. I find it extremely odd too that he hasn't been sacked and has been afforded an unusual amount of grace by the media. It's only in the last few weeks that I've seen media headlines talking in real negative terms about Postecoglu's tactics and results. And this is in the context of one of the poorest seasons in the club's entire history.

I think if I were a player I would be very reluctant to criticize my manager while still at the club, as it would hardly help make for a good working relationship.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

You're right. I'm just speculating. And just to be clear, I didnt want Ange in the first place and have been a vocal critic on here throughout his time. I am speculating as i too find it odd that there's been no clear signs of players complaining or downing tools and we are still up there in terms of running/effort. I find it extremely odd too that he hasn't been sacked and has been afforded an unusual amount of grace by the media. It's only in the last few weeks that I've seen media headlines talking in real negative terms about Postecoglu's tactics and results. And this is in the context of one of the poorest seasons in the club's entire history.

Probably because in the main, Ange comes across as a nice and decent fella. And they simply like him?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Just to be clear, I can't wait for him to be gone: I've reached the stage where I can't even watch full games! However, beyond our current situation, I think it's interesting that training sessions have become more and more of a talking point amongst fans. If you remember, Mourinho was criticised for his training methods too. On the other hand, Back in the George Graham days I remember endless discussions about his tactics, but we hardly ever touched on the training. In a way, it was considered as the players' and the manager's 'private life'.

In the span of three decades, there's been a huge increase in the level of tactical awareness of the average "internet fan". However, very few people - bar those who played at a decent/higher level - really know what a "good" training session should be about. What do they do in training? It's still a mystery. Coaches and players are rarely questioned about that and when they do, they usually give vague answer. Even Dier's answer could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Again, I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm just intrigued.

Absolutely everything regarding football, and in turn about individual clubs by fans that support those clubs, will be talked to death...it's not casual chat down the pub or cafe anymore...it's a whole new part of the attention (grifting) economy.

 

[Bishop]

Firstly, the ups last season were the first ten games, the downs were the remaining 28 league games and the cup games, so in brief not very successful at all.

After the first ten games we looked worse and worse, albeit with the occasional decent game. The players need coaching and organising, and it's obvious they get neither. I visualise their training sessions and imagine them running around the pitch a few times then just having penalty practice. Ange stands on the side line with his arms crossed watching the game like a rabbit blinded by head lights.

Because Levy has allowed this to go on so long the value of our players has depreciated significantly, and enticing any half decent player to join us will be a nightmare. Ange needed sacking last season, and if we had of done it we wouldn't be in the mess we are now

I don't disagree with you in terms of how the season went, however as it was his first year in charge and he did join a club in what I considered free fall with some quite big changes required and a load of dead wood to cut away, so the actual finishing position did earn him some kudos from me, first season in I don't think you can expect perfection especially given the circumstances. I'm not going to say I was totally convinced, but I did see potential for progress with a nip here and a tuck there. Fundamentally, I don't dislike his philosophy or system, I just question his implementation of it.

It's what has happened this season that has caused the serious doubts. As I mentioned, my general outlook is one of progression, we don't have to win all games or trophies or anything like that, but I do need to feel a general forward momentum in terms of where the team is. For me, we've stagnated because the systemic flaws that were evident last season are even more so this term and clearly to every opposition manager as well. Along with the holes we have just left unguarded, for me the priorities in the summer would have been a striker, a 6 and a RWF, we only got the striker. That was very concerning for me, as it said that Ange doesn't see the same faults and isn't prioritising the issues that I felt needed most urgent addressing. Thats really where he lost me tbh and then as the season has played out, all of those flaws and failings in recruitment have come to the forefront.

Theres a small part of me that thinks maybe he will have learnt from this experience, but I don't trust him enough to think that given another season in charge he would address the problems because up to now he either doesn't think they are an issue or he's simply incapable of formulating a response, to those very evident flaws in his system.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Probably because in the main, Ange comes across as a nice and decent fella. And they simply like him?

Agreed. That's very likely

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Probably because in the main, Ange comes across as a nice and decent fella. And they simply like him?

Does he really?!?!

 

[Raziel]

I don't disagree with you in terms of how the season went, however as it was his first year in charge and he did join a club in what I considered free fall with some quite big changes required and a load of dead wood to cut away, so the actual finishing position did earn him some kudos from me, first season in I don't think you can expect perfection especially given the circumstances. I'm not going to say I was totally convinced, but I did see potential for progress with a nip here and a tuck there. Fundamentally, I don't dislike his philosophy or system, I just question his implementation of it.

It's what has happened this season that has caused the serious doubts. As I mentioned, my general outlook is one of progression, we don't have to win all games or trophies or anything like that, but I do need to feel a general forward momentum in terms of where the team is. For me, we've stagnated because the systemic flaws that were evident last season are even more so this term and clearly to every opposition manager as well. Along with the holes we have just left unguarded, for me the priorities in the summer would have been a striker, a 6 and a RWF, we only got the striker. That was very concerning for me, as it said that Ange doesn't see the same faults and isn't prioritising the issues that I felt needed most urgent addressing. Thats really where he lost me tbh and then as the season has played out, all of those flaws and failings in recruitment have come to the forefront.

Theres a small part of me that thinks maybe he will have learnt from this experience, but I don't trust him enough to think that given another season in charge he would address the problems because up to now he either doesn't think they are an issue or he's simply incapable of formulating a response, to those very evident flaws in his system.

But there in lies the problem this is classic Peter principle stuff. Ange's system has worked for him for 29 years, and the more he stuck to it, the more it proved itself. And highly likely if he went back to a Celtic or lower quality league, it will work again.

The level of self awareness, introspection and ability to rethink your core model for him to compete at this level, would be extraordinary, it's not that I don't think Ange can do it, don't think anyone can (or at least a very small group).

My issues with him remain the same, and buying player x or y, isn't going to change it (e.g. a WC DM doesn't change the number of chances we give up, might simply help us concede a few less), and basically all his flaws are backed up by data, which is why I'm extremely frustrated with club sticking with him

- System leaves us too open, we concede more chances than anyone outside bottom 3.
- We have no in game management, we spend the least amount of time in mid block than any other team in PL (in my opinion, mid block is huge part of in game management)
- We sprint the most in and out of possession, this is a twofold problem, potential impact on injuries and/or need to have bigger squad, the realization that a core part of his system is built on effort not quality, we should be able to compete with 12 out of the 20 teams simply by having better players, instead we are trying to outrun 20 teams, it actually negates our spending ability.

 

[monkeybarry]

To paraphrase Groucho, I wouldn't want to win any trophy that it was possible to win with Postecoglou in charge.

No. I want Tottenham to win first and foremost

 

[monkeybarry]

Does he really?!?!

Yup.
Except when he's being cnut

 

[fernadez]

Fair enough but Dier was only there for the first six months of Postecoglou's tenure if I remember correctly. It's not unusual for a 'system manager' to try and drill the basics into the players. It would have been interesting to ask him for a comparison between Postecoglou and Conte, for instance. Plus, he's been kicked out of the club by Postecoglou so he could have been holding a grudge.

There is also his first friendly when we were leading at half time and playing keep ball.

He went into the dressing room and went ballistic saying that that's not how we play football and we should always be looking to attack regardless of the time and the score.

 

[HarryBreadbap]

Yes I've said before that most of our players look poor at the moment as there seem to be some basic fundamentals that aren't being worked on (either enough or at all) and these are things like tactical shape, attacking and defensive zones of responsibility, attacking and defensive set pieces. While people have debated the extent to which he was being sarcastic and actually meant it, at the end of the day you only have Ange's words on the subject, which are that he doesn't work on these things and isn't interested in doing so.

That shows on the pitch in consistently poor shape, players passing off marking responsibilities to nobody and leaving the opposition free in dangerous areas consistently (well consistently enough for us to concede high quality chances at an unsustainable rate), players getting in each other's way (remember x2 of our players running into each other going for the same ball?). More and more recently it's impacted on our attacking play as sometimes the player receives the ball and as everyone has run off forward in Ange's "chaos theory" system, there's no easy "progressive" passing option so the ball has to come back or go sideways, or what you get is an attempt to execute a difficult progressive pass that gets intercepted and we then have an opposition break on with most of our players ahead of the ball.....but most of all, it breeds indecision or rash behaviour. Because we don't work on this stuff on the training pitch and as the last coach that did fades into background memory, what you get is players being unsure what to do in situations and either hesitating (which at this level means your already dead) or following their own instincts in a rash manner, which is where you get players lunging at opposition, stepping out of defensive lines, one player pushing up while another drops back, you get consistent WTF decisions like the x2 ridiculous tackles against Chelsea.

I don't think the players are as bad or as stupid as they look currently. What they are is lacking confidence, lacking clear instructions and training in vital aspects and they're clearly trying their best for the manager (one thing on Ange: he's never lost the dressing room), but indecision and poor/rash decisioning are symptoms of the fundamental coaching failures I'm talking about.

I think there two or three issues, (one that may get fixed on Friday).

1. Lack of cohesive system and tactics
2. No leadership off the pitch
3. No leader on the pitch

I watched the Bournemouth v Fulham match yesterday and saw two disciplined teams, whose players knew their jobs within their teams system.

Coached by both managers on the sidelines who were constantly tweaking players positions and positional play.

I just don't see this at Spurs.

 

[HarryBreadbap]

We’ve had increasing numbers of games in which we register no/barely any shots.

I think the supply to Solanke from Son, Odobert, Tel or Johnson has been very poor.

I don't really think it matters who plays in the middle, they have service, and when you look at the goals Solanke has scored for us, the vast majority have come from quality crosses and the ball played to him either in front of him or over the top.

In fairness this is how he scored so many for Bournemouth in his final season with them.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Just to be clear, I can't wait for him to be gone:

Yeah, I got that impression when you said he should have been sacked at half-time at Everton

 

[HarryBreadbap]

Probably because in the main, Ange comes across as a nice and decent fella. And they simply like him?

Paul McVeigh (for those who remember him) was on LWOS podcast a couple of weeks ago talking about his time at Spurs and other clubs he played for. It's well worth a watch.

A very well rounded person, who I felt came across as honest, and forthright.

He was talking about player, and manager relationships and in general gave some examples where if a player is getting selected then that player will support the manager through thick and thin.

The one thing that did surprise me was that he felt player loyalty to a club is very misunderstood by the fans, where he felt that money is the driving factor in any move by a player and that "club loyalty" goes only as far as the length of a contract.

Very honest podcast, some surprising points of view about Spurs, fans expectations, and our future from Paul.

Well worth an hour of any Spurs fans time, and certainly made me think twice about the club.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Yup.
Except when he's being cnut

I genuinely haven't disliked a manager as much as I dislike him.

Then again I wouldn't worry as I'm a bit of a clam too. A loveable clam I like to say.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Well, this has all been disappointing.
I was hoping when he was appointed that some of that Australian winning mentality would rub off. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a former Aussie test player commentating on an Ashes cricket match, "you always back yourself", and that was the vibe I was getting in the early days of his management.
I was also hoping for an end to the "something must be done" form of managerial recruitment, and that we'd give a manager three years to impose his stamp on the club. I don't think Ange is going to get those three years - he's started caveating in interviews "if I'm still here" - and reluctantly I have come around to the view he probably does not deserve to. A case could, perhaps, be made for letting him have the pre-season and see how he goes in the first six games next year; after all, this season has been an exceptional one in terms of injuries, and a lot of young players have been recruited who should be better next year (and there are not many old players who should be worse - Son, Davies).
Those who have already had it with Ange would explode at the idea of giving him even more time, and I understand that.
Are there any scenarios in which Ange survives, other than the increasingly unlikely Europa League success?
In the NFL, you often get lame duck coaches who are forced to sack their offensive co-ordinator or give up general manager duties or whatever in order to keep their jobs, and maybe Ange could be persuaded to become more of a manager while we get a coach in to implement his basic philosophy (more successfully) - a Martin Jol to Ange's Santini. The problem with that idea is, it does not even work in the NFL.
What Ange needs is some of the Nick Faldo mentality. Faldo was already one of the top golf players in the world when he decided to rework his golf swing so he would ultimately be even better. I don't see Ange being willing to do that and maybe he should not be allowed to do so on our time anyway.
If you've read my rambling musings this far then you have my sympathy and admiration, so I will leave you with an impish thought as to who his replacement should be: Sarina Wiegman. At least the half-time talks would be interesting.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Well, this has all been disappointing.
I was hoping when he was appointed that some of that Australian winning mentality would rub off. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a former Aussie test player commentating on an Ashes cricket match, "you always back yourself", and that was the vibe I was getting in the early days of his management.
I was also hoping for an end to the "something must be done" form of managerial recruitment, and that we'd give a manager three years to impose his stamp on the club. I don't think Ange is going to get those three years - he's started caveating in interviews "if I'm still here" - and reluctantly I have come around to the view he probably does not deserve to. A case could, perhaps, be made for letting him have the pre-season and see how he goes in the first six games next year; after all, this season has been an exceptional one in terms of injuries, and a lot of young players have been recruited who should be better next year (and there are not many old players who should be worse - Son, Davies).
Those who have already had it with Ange would explode at the idea of giving him even more time, and I understand that.
Are there any scenarios in which Ange survives, other than the increasingly unlikely Europa League success?
In the NFL, you often get lame duck coaches who are forced to sack their offensive co-ordinator or give up general manager duties or whatever in order to keep their jobs, and maybe Ange could be persuaded to become more of a manager while we get a coach in to implement his basic philosophy (more successfully) - a Martin Jol to Ange's Santini. The problem with that idea is, it does not even work in the NFL.
What Ange needs is some of the Nick Faldo mentality. Faldo was already one of the top golf players in the world when he decided to rework his golf swing so he would ultimately be even better. I don't see Ange being willing to do that and maybe he should not be allowed to do so on our time anyway.
If you've read my rambling musings this far then you have my sympathy and admiration, so I will leave you with an impish thought as to who his replacement should be: Sarina Wiegman. At least the half-time talks would be interesting.

Sensible post and if we had a crystal ball it would help. But I just don't think we can risk what we probably already know, for the thing we had in the first ten games of his tenure. It's broken, he's broken and we need to move on.

Let's see what happens tomorrow then review!