Ange in or out?

[Muttley]

Well i still want him to finish the season and make any decision then, i understand that fans are angry and frustrated [ i am not overjoyed myself] but since Poch went we have had the following managers who have tried to create a winning side.

Santo [4 months], Mourinio [ 17 months], Conte [16 months] and now we are deciding if Ange should be the next one sacked.

The one sure thing that we need to do is not start moaning and groaning about managers [ we live in hope but do not hold your breath] every time we fail to finish the building of a good team. IMO. Now there are some who will blame Levy for the sackings for sure but we as fans put pressure on him to sack yet another manager.

I accept that my comments will go down like a lead ballon but we need stabilty and a LONG TERM plan. Unfortunately i see no hope of that happening. Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist i am not having a go at anyone on here but the reality is what it is.

For me Ange is like a few players that we've brought in over the years. They might have stepped up to the level required and worked out brilliantly but they didn't. Doesn't mean we should have a downer on the club for speculating on them. This is unlike some of the prior appointments that were just terrible football operations management in the first place. I have no sympathy for quite a lot of Levy's decisions in the past. This one just hasn't worked out.

We just need to move on, as the overall direction of travel is good at the club. I still genuinely believe that.

 

[Raziel]

Well i still want him to finish the season and make any decision then, i understand that fans are angry and frustrated [ i am not overjoyed myself] but since Poch went we have had the following managers who have tried to create a winning side.

Santo [4 months], Mourinio [ 17 months], Conte [16 months] and now we are deciding if Ange should be the next one sacked.

The one sure thing that we need to do is not start moaning and groaning about managers [ we live in hope but do not hold your breath] every time we fail to finish the building of a good team. IMO. Now there are some who will blame Levy for the sackings for sure but we as fans put pressure on him to sack yet another manager.

I accept that my comments will go down like a lead ballon but we need stabilty and a LONG TERM plan. Unfortunately i see no hope of that happening. Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist i am not having a go at anyone on here but the reality is what it is.

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

 

[Muttley]

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

Just said the same. Ange is just one employee at a massive club who has an important but not indispensable role. He has come up short so we need to move on. Some of the other work within the club has been fantastic and any new manager could have a load of success with the squad quality.

 

[Mikey10]

Define “ordinary fan”

Probably a poor choice of words on my parts as, in many ways, of course, there’s no such thing.

I meant those who are slowly being priced out now - and I include myself in that. Until relatively recently I was attending around 10 home games a year. It’s a £150 - £200 day for me now, once ticket, travel, food and a couple of pints are taken into account. I’m on a reasonable salary as a teacher, but 3 or 4 games a season is the maximum I can afford now.

I’ve nothing at all against those who come from overseas to games, but can’t help but feel the experience is increasingly about how much money can be squeezed out of anyone attending; and they are a prime market for that.

As a club we’re not alone in making the commercial increasingly central, but it is one thing in which we lead the way.

 

[glorygloryeze]

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

Your point about Jose, Conte and Ange all having better first seasons than second is quite eye-opening: it certainly shows how in the last decade how much Poch was/is a standout.
How much of that is down to the rigidity of those managers, how much of that is down to the club?

 

[Raziel]

Your point about Jose, Conte and Ange all having better first seasons than second is quite eye-opening: it certainly shows how in the last decade how much Poch was/is a standout.
How much of that is down to the rigidity of those managers, how much of that is down to the club?

Nothing is ever one thing, but quick look at the managers

- Poch inherited a squad that needed change, took about 18 months (I could be slightly off) to get to that Son, Kane, Dele, Eriksen, DM, Toby, Jan world
- Jose was supposed to squeeze the last drop out of that squad, and while I still think wrong manager, Covid fudged any real evaluation of his time, he was hired probably with expectation of spend we are doing now, then the club ended up losing millions of dollars
- Conte, similar but personal issues and the fact (on that's on the club) his abrasive/confrontational side was always going to lead to implosion
- Ange, I think he has been found out, someone caught it in one of the other threads, Ange's system works at levels where every mistake doesn't get punished, at the very top, mistakes get punished and a too open system (that creates mistakes) doesn't fly. Add in teams have sussed the rotation/overload thing and how to counter.

 

[Raziel]

Probably a poor choice of words on my parts as, in many ways, of course, there’s no such thing.

I meant those who are slowly being priced out now - and I include myself in that. Until relatively recently I was attending around 10 home games a year. It’s a £150 - £200 day for me now, once ticket, travel, food and a couple of pints are taken into account. I’m on a reasonable salary as a teacher, but 3 or 4 games a season is the maximum I can afford now.

I’ve nothing at all against those who come from overseas to games, but can’t help but feel the experience is increasingly about how much money can be squeezed out of anyone attending; and they are a prime market for that.

As a club we’re not alone in making the commercial increasingly central, but it is one thing in which we lead the way.

Every sport is going that way, see F1 as the hole you can get to.

We absolutely don't lead the way, United has traditionally done that, and Chelsea has told us all to hold our beer, Chelsea's owner is scalping their own tickets to overseas packages at huge uplifts.

3rd or 5th worse doesn't matter, I've said for years, the in seat local fan will be less and less financially relevant each year.

 

[balesleftboot]

100%. I don't think our home support has been good since WHL. The club should have been smart and allocated season tickets in the south stand to people actually wanting to sing. Can't have been that hard.

To think what a fortress the Lane had become in our last season there.

 

[Daisuk]

To think what a fortress the Lane had become in our last season there.

17 wins and 2 draws. Just incredible.

 

[Raziel]

100%. I don't think our home support has been good since WHL. The club should have been smart and allocated season tickets in the south stand to people actually wanting to sing. Can't have been that hard.

People/fans have changed ..

It really clicked for me in the game we played City a couple of years ago, we had them 2-0 down at HT and their fudging fans booed at HT, really? you have watched City under Pep and the success (more success in last 11 years than in their entire history before) and you feel entitled to boo at HT? not even when the game is done

It's not even the new fans, the media/social media has fudged people up to where not winning every game 4-0 on the stroll is somehow "unworthy" of support. My seat area has people who saw us win the 80's and there are still guys two rows behind and in front who bitch 5 minutes in, who have a spacegoat (Royal, Winks, Porro, Johnson) that they ride every fudging game ...

I remember WHL in seasons where we were not in with a shot at anything .. where the season was dead by January and yet the support was good ...

 

[indospurs]

how can we have a plus 14 goal difference and be 13th? the next team with more is Emirates Marketing Project in 5th! it's insane

how can we, in the previous 2-3 months, have had any consistency when 11 normal first XI players are just out at the same time, or on rotation?

I don't think Ange carries these issues by himself, i do wonder about the medical staff

here's an interesting take (I bet someone has already posted this):

my concern is the defensive set up, as we get more and more disillusioned with the high press where we have just become inconsistent, teams have found it easier and easier to go right through us as we have all seen, the midfield is all over the place

 

[Raziel]

how can we have a plus 14 goal difference and be 13th? the next team with more is Emirates Marketing Project in 5th! it's insane

how can we, in the previous 2-3 months, have had any consistency when 11 normal first XI players are just out at the same time, or on rotation?

I don't think Ange carries these issues by himself, i do wonder about the medical staff

here's an interesting take (I bet someone has already posted this):

my concern is the defensive set up, as we get more and more disillusioned with the high press where we have just become inconsistent, teams have found it easier and easier to go right through us as we have all seen, the midfield is all over the place

Win big, lose small, very simple

Two very damning statistics to think about
- We almost never win by a 1 goal margin, we almost always lose by 1 goal margin -> translation, if game is tight, we don't win (will get to that point later)
- Games we win, we have almost always outrun the opponent (games we don't, our loss ratio is off the chart brick)

What does that say
- We lack tactics and game management
- Tactic is outrun, when we don't we lose, hence even against brick sides (Leicester, Everton, Ipswich) we are not letting our player quality make the difference, we are just depending on physical output
- Game management is why we lose tight games, opposition is willing to do what Bournemouth did, sit and defend when we have possession (was a 15 min spell against Bournemouth we had 80% possession, and did not score), wait for us to make mistake and counter. We on the other hand don't pick our moments, even when opposition has a good spell, instead of tightening up for 5-10 minutes, we keep being open, we keep leaving spaces out wide and therefore give up opportunities that the opposition will take.

This brick is on the manager ..

 

[indospurs]

Win big, lose small, very simple

Two very damning statistics to think about
- We almost never win by a 1 goal margin, we almost always lose by 1 goal margin -> translation, if game is tight, we don't win (will get to that point later)
- Games we win, we have almost always outrun the opponent (games we don't, our loss ratio is off the chart brick)

What does that say
- We lack tactics and game management
- Tactic is outrun, when we don't we lose, hence even against brick sides (Leicester, Everton, Ipswich) we are not letting our player quality make the difference, we are just depending on physical output
- Game management is why we lose tight games, opposition is willing to do what Bournemouth did, sit and defend when we have possession (was a 15 min spell against Bournemouth we had 80% possession, and did not score), wait for us to make mistake and counter. We on the other hand don't pick our moments, even when opposition has a good spell, instead of tightening up for 5-10 minutes, we keep being open, we keep leaving spaces out wide and therefore give up opportunities that the opposition will take.

This brick is on the manager ..

your points are spelt out here:

very helter skelter - even Pep said after the game they won 1-0 recently, why is Udogie always running around? needs to (in a liverpudlian accent) calm down

 

[parklane1]

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

I can [and] do agree with a lot of that to be honest and you make some good points. As you say we have the makings of a very good squad and a lot of it [ youngsters like Bergvill etc] should go on and become very good players . But if/when Ange is moved on we have to have a little more patience then we have shown since Pooch and give the new manager time to achieve what we all want and that is trophys.

But i get back to the point i was making and that is we need to give managers time[ my post you quoted], that means we have to stop this short term change of managers that some fans start screaming for after we do not get it quicker enough for them.

I have been watching our great club for a very long time and sadly [ in a lot of ways] fans seem to demand instant glory and IF it does not happen in the first couple of seasons start demanding for yet another manager and rebuild. It usually leads nowhere except more changes and yet another rebuild.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Win big, lose small, very simple

Two very damning statistics to think about
- We almost never win by a 1 goal margin, we almost always lose by 1 goal margin -> translation, if game is tight, we don't win (will get to that point later)
- Games we win, we have almost always outrun the opponent (games we don't, our loss ratio is off the chart brick)

What does that say
- We lack tactics and game management
- Tactic is outrun, when we don't we lose, hence even against brick sides (Leicester, Everton, Ipswich) we are not letting our player quality make the difference, we are just depending on physical output
- Game management is why we lose tight games, opposition is willing to do what Bournemouth did, sit and defend when we have possession (was a 15 min spell against Bournemouth we had 80% possession, and did not score), wait for us to make mistake and counter. We on the other hand don't pick our moments, even when opposition has a good spell, instead of tightening up for 5-10 minutes, we keep being open, we keep leaving spaces out wide and therefore give up opportunities that the opposition will take.

This brick is on the manager ..

This a million times. If we have an off day, we lose. If the opposition are on one, we lose, if it's a bit of a chess match, we might draw, but often lose, if its a tight, scrappy game we might draw, might lose. If we are on our game and the opposition are a bit off, we will win and often win big. Its literally been that way since he joined. The other thing about winning big when we win and your point about lack of game management is that so often if we do go 2-0 up we don't manage the game out we keep going and pushing forward for more goals. Not only does this leave us open to Brighton style nightmares but it just knackers the players out unnecessarily whereas top teams pace themselves over a season and are happy to see out a 2-0. That's also why we so often win 4-0 or 4-1 when we do win. More so than other teams.

 

[thfcsteff]

Respectfully I disagree Steff. For a start, Conte relies on big "centre forwards"(showing my age I know), Diego Costa, Harry Kane, and Romelu Lukaku. One of the things that has impressed me with Iraola is how his team can cope with the loss of forwards and still score goals because the way they play spreads the goals across the forwards. There have been several analyses of them this season to show that while they press very well, if there is a turnover, their double pivot of Christie and Adams are very effective at shielding the defence which means they are not as open as we are.

Iraola's team may be direct at times but as was shown by that disallowed goal, they can also build up play too. It's good to mix things up, that kind pragmatism wins matches especially with teams who on paper are not as good as their opponents. Let's be honest they were pleasing on the eye yesterday.

And their results against top of the table rivals are pretty good. Beaten Arsenal, us, Emirates Marketing Project, Forest and smashed Saudi Sportswashing Machine (who were on a great run at the time) at SJP, should have beaten Chelsea away too but for a controversial last second equaliser.

It remains to be seen if Iraola can cope with 2 games a week. But the absence of evidence to show he can is not, in itself, evidence that he can't. After all Poch did and his teams played with the same kind of high intensity.
I am not saying Iraola is definitely the answer, but he will be the closest manager to the Poch style that was successful here. So he should be considered.

All good. If he's appointed I hope you're right.
For the record, I am not questioning whether Iraola has been good, that'd be silly, he's obviously had a great season and Bournemouth's results speak for themselves.

I will continue to question the Poch comparison.
I don't think it's as accurate as you propose.
Iraola (for me ) likes to set traps and exploit others, whereas Poch was all about high-press/attacking football with plenty of possession. Just to say, Poch's average per match possession was in the 59% range.

FWIW Bournemouth currently have 46.7 % average possesion per game (15th in the league). We have 57.5 % average possession per game (3rd in the league)...I know I know, wish those stats related to actual league position (!!!), but the underlying thing here is that we see (and saw on Saturday) some brilliant goals/chances from Bournemouth, but they came as a result of traps and pressing us into mistakes more than waves of possession-based attacking football. And you're right, they're excellent at it. I can see why people compare Iraola to Poch. South Coast Premier League club, younger, exciting Latin-manager, enjoying great success with a club who have previously not had a huge amount, but they are not facsimiles of each other.
I just think it's important to know what we might be getting.

 

[Muttley]

All good. If he's appointed I hope you're right.
For the record, I am not questioning whether Iraola has been good, that'd be silly, he's obviously had a great season and Bournemouth's results speak for themselves.

I will continue to question the Poch comparison.
I don't think it's as accurate as you propose.
Iraola (for me ) likes to set traps and exploit others, whereas Poch was all about high-press/attacking football with plenty of possession. Just to say, Poch's average per match possession was in the 59% range.

FWIW Bournemouth currently have 46.7 % average possesion per game (15th in the league). We have 57.5 % average possession per game (3rd in the league)...I know I know, wish those stats related to actual league position (!!!), but the underlying thing here is that we see (and saw on Saturday) some brilliant goals/chances from Bournemouth, but they came as a result of traps and pressing us into mistakes more than waves of possession-based attacking football. And you're right, they're excellent at it. I can see why people compare Iraola to Poch. South Coast Premier League club, younger, exciting Latin-manager, enjoying great success with a club who have previously not had a huge amount, but they are not facsimiles of each other.
I just think it's important to know what we might be getting.

Out of interest, what was Poch's average possession as a Saints manager? Not sure where you're getting these stats from, but isn't the B'mouth vs Saints comparison the right one. Somewhere in between the above numbers would be my guess, probably splitting that gap in half.

 

[Raziel]

All good. If he's appointed I hope you're right.
For the record, I am not questioning whether Iraola has been good, that'd be silly, he's obviously had a great season and Bournemouth's results speak for themselves.

I will continue to question the Poch comparison.
I don't think it's as accurate as you propose.
Iraola (for me ) likes to set traps and exploit others, whereas Poch was all about high-press/attacking football with plenty of possession. Just to say, Poch's average per match possession was in the 59% range.

FWIW Bournemouth currently have 46.7 % average possesion per game (15th in the league). We have 57.5 % average possession per game (3rd in the league)...I know I know, wish those stats related to actual league position (!!!), but the underlying thing here is that we see (and saw on Saturday) some brilliant goals/chances from Bournemouth, but they came as a result of traps and pressing us into mistakes more than waves of possession-based attacking football. And you're right, they're excellent at it. I can see why people compare Iraola to Poch. South Coast Premier League club, younger, exciting Latin-manager, enjoying great success with a club who have previously not had a huge amount, but they are not facsimiles of each other.
I just think it's important to know what we might be getting.

Different managers, very different styles, completely agree

He's more counter attack vs. Poch possession, he uses wingers more than Poch (FB), I'd say that his system is more decisive in final 3rd, can be a bit more counter/direct but it does create goals from probably less chances than classic Poch.

That said, he could very well be playing within the limitations of his players (i.e. are they playing that way because it suits the system or the players at disposal?), something Ange doesn't do very well.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Out of interest, what was Poch's average possession as a Saints manager? Not sure where you're getting these stats from, but isn't the B'mouth vs Saints comparison the right one. Somewhere in between the above numbers would be my guess, probably splitting that gap in half.

Definitely similar IMO
Even had the reliance on a great DOF who left for a bigger club … Bournemouths went to Liverpool last summer
High press football
Made players very much coveted by others
I said it last January… he is Poch mk2
And I’m sure if he came here we wouldn’t win anything still but it would be fun

 

[Raziel]

Out of interest, what was Poch's average possession as a Saints manager? Not sure where you're getting these stats from, but isn't the B'mouth vs Saints comparison the right one. Somewhere in between the above numbers would be my guess, probably splitting that gap in half.

stat is isolation is odd, Saints this season have >50% possession and are arguably one of the worse sides to play in EPL history.

But just to show @thfcsteff I'm nice to his guy, it was actually 59% way back then, so was a leading indicator of his potential