Zaha

[harr1984]

I think selective stats are necessary because part of the point is that Zaha has the skill set that we don’t currently have with our other AMs that we could do with - being one that runs with the ball at pace and directly beats players with skill and hence draws a lot of fouls. We already have the AMs for goals, creatives passes etc....

 

[DubaiSpur]

For the hundreth time, Moura's game and Zaha's game are completely different. By the same argument, we should not have bought Aurier because we had just bought Sanchez.

I don't think they're that different, tbh. Lucas made his name as a pacy dribbler in Ligue 1 - Zaha's made his name as a pacy dribbler in the Premier League. Given the circumstances Lucas played in (playing for the best team in Ligue 1 by a country mile, in a generally less physical environment), he didn't need to bulk up as much as Zaha did - that's the principal difference.

But, beyond that, I don't see what's so different about either. Not saying Zaha doesn't have his merits, but I think Lucas does a lot of the same things, and we're likely going to see that in action this year.

 

[Bullet]

40 pages, I assumed we had signed this chap or it was imminent... not 10 pages proving "Zaha is good at dribbling but 60 large is a lot to spend on a dribbler".

I wonder if PochyTockyTino can coach Zaha to arrive in the box and score goals.

With Lamela and Moura fit I'm feeling good about our options... assuming Harry is fit and Son is in the UK

 

[metalgear]

He's pretty good at one thing - dribbling. Not passing, not shooting, not general spatial awareness, not defensive positioning.

He's good at dribbling.

His value to us probably lies more in the fact that he's big, fast, can cover multiple positions (up front/on the wing), is homegrown for the purposes of UEFA squad rules...*and* is good at dribbling.

Is that collectively worth whatever Palace will ask? I'm unsure.

Sounds like Dembele pre-poch. How much would you pay for a younger version of Dembele?

Sent from my SM-T819Y using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I think you need a bigger range of stats to argue your case here as the ones your have quoted are selective

Dont forget the two players your comparing him with are younger, less experienced and not playing for the very top side either

I agree; but these are the only stats on Sqawka related to dribbling. The fact that the German duo are younger and less experienced is exactly why I also want Zaha and not them. We are at a critical junction - we cannot afford to lose pace this year, not with the others in the top (including the scum) strengthening so heavily we cannot risk on a young player who - at best (ala Sane) may take one or two years to acclimatise. We need players who have already done it in the Premiership.

You're backing up a point that we already agree on though, that Zaha is
good at dribbling - that alone doesn't make him worth 60m+ to us.

Can you decide what your benchmark is? I don't think it is too much to ask for a consistent train of thought. First he was not good and at best a squad player - his stats show he is better than any of our squad in the key attributes of a winger; which we lack. Then it was we could get better and cheaper from abroad - but the only two examples you provided have massively inferior stats despite playing in an easier league. Now you say he is not worth 60mill to us, the most subjective and most negative quote of all. If he is able to replicate his Palace form and win us at least two or three of the games against the bottom half teams we drew last season, and in the process allow to keep the challenge of the likes of the two London scum at bay, he would be worth twice that...

I don't think they're that different, tbh. Lucas made his name as a pacy dribbler in Ligue 1 - Zaha's made his name as a pacy dribbler in the Premier League. Given the circumstances Lucas played in (playing for the best team in Ligue 1 by a country mile, in a generally less physical environment), he didn't need to bulk up as much as Zaha did - that's the principal difference.

But, beyond that, I don't see what's so different about either. Not saying Zaha doesn't have his merits, but I think Lucas does a lot of the same things, and we're likely going to see that in action this year.

You have a point but the difference is that Moura dribbles into space; in other words his dribbling comes off when he already on the move. That is a problem with packed defences. On the other hand, Zaha not only is capable of dribbling at pace but can also beat one or two opponents from a standing start something only Hazard does better in the Premiership - as the stats show.

He's pretty good at one thing - dribbling. Not passing, not shooting, not general spatial awareness, not defensive positioning.

He's good at dribbling.

His value to us probably lies more in the fact that he's big, fast, can cover multiple positions (up front/on the wing), is homegrown for the purposes of UEFA squad rules...*and* is good at dribbling.

Is that collectively worth whatever Palace will ask? I'm unsure.

As Klopp said “I think it’s something we have to do. He has nothing to do with the price, we have nothing to do with the price, it’s the market, that’s how it is and we will not think a lot about it." THIS is how a big club thinks.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You have a point but the difference is that Moura dribbles into space; in other words his dribbling comes off when he already on the move. That is a problem with packed defences. On the other hand, Zaha not only is capable of dribbling at pace but can also beat one or two opponents from a standing start something only Hazard does better in the Premiership - as the stats show.

I'd be interested in seeing those stats, tbh. I've seen your general ones about the successful % of take-ons, but the ones for Lucas aren't bad either (in fact, compare Lucas and Zaha from 2016/2017, and Lucas actually has the better take-on success rate, although he made fewer take ons per game overall). How do you measure the bit about taking people on from a standing start?

As Klopp said “I think it’s something we have to do. He has nothing to do with the price, we have nothing to do with the price, it’s the market, that’s how it is and we will not think a lot about it." THIS is how a big club thinks.

I don't disagree, but it's easier to be that grandiose when you're referring to Alisson, Fabinho, Keita and Virgil Van Dijk than when you're referring to Wilfried Zaha. That just feels a bit like those randos on The Fighting rooster who are insisting that what Poch meant by 'being brave' was either a) doing absolutely nothing, or b) spending 50m on Jack Grealish, an above-average one-footed attacking midfielder from the Championship.

 

[benp]

this thread has convinced me that i want us to get Zaha now, and his price isn't that bad. well done chaps! I was in the other camp previously.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I'd be interested in seeing those stats, tbh. I've seen your general ones about the successful % of take-ons, but the ones for Lucas aren't bad either (in fact, compare Lucas and Zaha from 2016/2017, and Lucas actually has the better take-on success rate, although he made fewer take ons per game overall). How do you measure the bit about taking people on from a standing start?

That comes from watching the two players because these types of stats are not registered to my knowledge. I think I am quite correct on them, though. It also fits with what you said, since players who are capable of taking on players from a standing start invariably have higher take-ons than those who depend on prior movement to execute their dribbling.

I don't disagree, but it's easier to be that grandiose when you're referring to Alisson, Fabinho, Keita and Virgil Van Dijk than when you're referring to Wilfried Zaha. That just feels a bit like those randos on The Fighting rooster who are insisting that what Poch meant by 'being brave' was either a) doing absolutely nothing, or b) spending 50m on Jack Grealish, an above-average one-footed attacking midfielder from the Championship.

Why? Because they are foreign names? I bet you half of those raising objections about his price would not utter a word if Zaha was a Brazilian playing with the same stats playing in the Portuguese league. Sorry but it is the "grass is greener across the ocean" mentality that permeates among Spurs fans and dates back decades; where English players from lower teams are "not good enough" but untested foreigners are welcomed with open arms. Remember Sergei Rebrov and Soldado anyone?

 

[NaijaSpurs]

I don't have a disdain for Zaha, he's a decent player and i would have him here as a squad option if his price reflected that. 60m however is crazy money, it would be the15th highest fee of all time (wiki), our largest transfer fee by double - and it would be for a squad player! just because badly managed clubs who have become cash rich these past couple of seasons are throwing stupid fees around for average players doesn't mean we have to lose our brick and start over paying too

Fine, I get your point, I do not agree with it but I respect it. Now who do you think we should go for in your humble opinion?

 

[billyiddo]

Can you decide what your benchmark is? I don't think it is too much to ask for a consistent train of thought. First he was not good and at best a squad player - his stats show he is better than any of our squad in the key attributes of a winger; which we lack. Then it was we could get better and cheaper from abroad - but the only two examples you provided have massively inferior stats despite playing in an easier league. Now you say he is not worth 60mill to us, the most subjective and most negative quote of all. If he is able to replicate his Palace form and win us at least two or three of the games against the bottom half teams we drew last season, and in the process allow to keep the challenge of the likes of the two London scum at bay, he would be worth twice that...

Zaha is not worth 60m+
We can get better value abroad

Those are the two points I've been talking on this subject, the same now as it was when i started posting in here. I never said he wasn't any good, in fact i have maintained throughout he's a decent player who i would have here as a squad option if the price reflected that.

Your response to any player put forward as an example so far is to quote his take on % as though it's the be all and end all of what makes a good wide forward, as though Zaha having 10% - 20% or whatever better take ons makes up for his lower goals scored or chances created and that's before you even take in to considerarion that comparing stats across different leagues/countries is a bit of a waste of time as there are countless variables involved which makes a straight up numbers comparison pretty worthless.

I think 60m is an awful lot of money and i don't think Zaha would justify that sort of fee.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

I think 60m is an awful lot of money and i don't think Zaha would justify that sort of fee.

A couple of years ago I would have agreed with you but now not so much.

I hear Man Utd are after Ivan Perisic lets see how much he goes for. Even if you argue he is a better player than Zaha he is 29 years old and I bet he will not got for less than £60m[/QUOTE]

 

[DubaiSpur]

That comes from watching the two players because these types of stats are not registered to my knowledge. I think I am quite correct on them, though. It also fits with what you said, since players who are capable of taking on players from a standing start invariably have higher take-ons than those who depend on prior movement to execute their dribbling.

Right, but if someone tries being a Fancy Dan ten times a game and loses the ball five times out of ten, while someone else only tries five times but is successful in four of them...

...I think it's an open question. The one with more successful take-ons would probably be more beneficial for the team, since he picks his moments in terms of taking people on. He would also likely be less of a one-trick pony than someone who just tries to dribble through people all the time.

I don't

Why? Because they are foreign names? I bet you half of those raising objections about his price would not utter a word if Zaha was a Brazilian playing with the same stats playing in the Portuguese league. Sorry but it is the "grass is greener across the ocean" mentality that permeates among Spurs fans and dates back decades; where English players from lower teams are "not good enough" but untested foreigners are welcomed with open arms. Remember Sergei Rebrov and Soldado anyone?

No, it's because they've all achieved more than he has while being younger to boot.

Keita is 23, has played in the Champions League and dominated Bundesliga games against top-quality opposition - Fabinho is 24, and has won Ligue 1 with AS Monaco. Alisson is 25, has just transferred for a world-record fee after a season where lots and lots of people considered him one of the world's best keepers, up there with his compatriot Ederson.

Meanwhile, we are discussing spending the same amount on a 25-year-old winger who couldn't cut it at United and has spent seven seasons in total at Crystal Palace, registering mediocre goals and assists tallies in both the Championship and the Premier League. And this despite being afforded a lot more space and time than he would in a more competitive, high-end side.

It hasn't always been these Carlos Kickaballs that have turned out awful - we have many, many instances of signing awful players from our own shores as well, as I'm sure you're well aware.

 

[Yiddo]

For the hundreth time, Moura's game and Zaha's game are completely different. By the same argument, we should not have bought Aurier because we had just bought Sanchez.



Because he brings a quality that none of those 5 possess!!!

View attachment 4756

And now you are saying that he will be disruptive when there is absolutely nothing in his past to suggest that.




Guess Poch does not share that opinion, seeing as he played 1379 minutes in Premiership games alone last year. Is that worth 5mill or so a year? But that's another story. The issue here is whether Zaha can bring something different to our team.

We had a player that had the qualities no one else possessed.

 

[indospurs]

Zaha is not worth 60m+
We can get better value abroad

Those are the two points I've been talking on this subject, the same now as it was when i started posting in here. I never said he wasn't any good, in fact i have maintained throughout he's a decent player who i would have here as a squad option if the price reflected that.

Your response to any player put forward as an example so far is to quote his take on % as though it's the be all and end all of what makes a good wide forward, as though Zaha having 10% - 20% or whatever better take ons makes up for his lower goals scored or chances created and that's before you even take in to considerarion that comparing stats across different leagues/countries is a bit of a waste of time as there are countless variables involved which makes a straight up numbers comparison pretty worthless.

I think 60m is an awful lot of money and i don't think Zaha would justify that sort of fee.

if not Zaha, then who - if this is the type of player we should have ?

 

[billyiddo]

if not Zaha, then who - if this is the type of player we should have ?

As per @Yiddo s post above, how about AT?

Spoiler

 

[nayenezgani]

Lock this fudging thread already. Jesus wept.

 

[Finney Is Back]

No, it's because they've all achieved more than he has while being younger to boot.

Keita is 23, has played in the Champions League and dominated Bundesliga games against top-quality opposition - Fabinho is 24, and has won Ligue 1 with AS Monaco. Alisson is 25, has just transferred for a world-record fee after a season where lots and lots of people considered him one of the world's best keepers, up there with his compatriot Ederson.

Meanwhile, we are discussing spending the same amount on a 25-year-old winger who couldn't cut it at United and has spent seven seasons in total at Crystal Palace, registering mediocre goals and assists tallies in both the Championship and the Premier League. And this despite being afforded a lot more space and time than he would in a more competitive, high-end side.

It hasn't always been these Carlos Kickaballs that have turned out awful - we have many, many instances of signing awful players from our own shores as well, as I'm sure you're well aware.

While I can appreciate the points you make I think that there is also a decent counter argument against all of them. For example you say that Keita has dominated Bundesliga games against top quality opposition, but Zaha has also done this, except he has done it in PL games against top quality opposition, which considering we are in the PL, surely trumps doing it in Germany? I'm also not sure that a player winning the league in France cuts too much mustard really, after all we signed Aurier who had won multiple titles in France. It doesn't automatically make him a great player or one worth a fortune.

I also think it is a little unfair to judge Zaha on his time at Man Utd. He moved there at only 21 years of age, before he was anywhere near fully developed as a player and ready to do so. Additionally the manager who signed him then left the club 6 months later. I think the move to a big club probably came 3 years early for Zaha. He needed to develop further, specifically to improve his decision making and his end product before being good enough to play at the top level. I think he has now improved both of those things and is ready for that big move.

I completely disagree that Zaha would be afforded less time and space playing for us than he gets when playing for Palace. Zaha gets more attention from the opposition than any other player in the Palace team and, from what I have seen he gets more attention than pretty much any other player in the league. Teams that play Palace often change their shape and tactics just to try to counter his threat. I think he would get more time and space playing for us because teams cannot afford to double up on him at the expense of leaving the likes of Kane, Eriksen or Ali free. Additionally being surrounded by better footballers will result in him receiving better passes in better areas.

When I watch Zaha I see a player who has all the right attributes to play for a club like ours. Pace, power, skill, vision, bravery and confidence. The only concern I had about him previously was that he seemed to happy to stay at Palace and be a big fish in a small pond, I was therefore worried about his will to win. However if it is true that he has decided to reject their new contract offer and ask for a move then that is the final box ticked for me.

In terms of what Zaha is worth, that is a difficult one. As Palace's best player and one who they would almost certainly have been relegated without last season and the player still on a long contract, clearly there would have to be a premium for Palace to agree a sale. I would say that as a player in a decent foreign league Zaha would probably cost about £40 million, you then have the gamble on whether or not they will be able to adapt to English football. Add a £20 million premium for him being PL proven and homegrown and you're up to £60 million. On top of that though would have to be the premium for Crystal Palace and that probably takes the fee up to £70 million. Is he worth that as a player? Probably not, but would it be worth us signing him for that sort of amount?.... Perhaps it would be. He is clearly a good player who can play as a wide forward or through the middle, is the right age for a move to a club like ours and still seems to be improving.

 

[Kandi1977]

I believe Zaha has the skill and talent to add something to Spurs. My only concern about him, is his mentality. He's now the main man and a rather big fish in a small pond. He'd have to accept being a much smaller fish in a bigger pond at Spurs. Some don't cope with that. Whether he can or will, I have no clue.

 

[Grays_1890]

Zaha is happening, money + Sissoko apparently

 

[inkpenspur]

says who?