Why can't we close a game?

[Armchair Expert]

Ive not read all of the posts above but I think some of the problems are with the fact other teams know we cant see a game out and genuinely have a proper go at us when we are leading. You dont get that with other teams, they just accept defeat at a ground like chelsea and give up.

I don't agree with that. Chelsea have the experience and technical nous to go along with their defensive mind set and canny players and shut games down. They are masters of stifling the life out of games and grinding opponents down. I don't think we gave up in the LC Final, but Chelsea shut up shop in a way few other teams can. The amount of times you watch a Chelsea match and they don't look at the races only to realise the opposition hasn't had a shot on target.

I think all teams have a go, but Chelsea just have the skill of keeping opponents at arms length.

Why can't we do it? We are young, very attack minded, high tempo and fluid. Tactically we are completely dissimilar to Chelsea. It makes sense that a team who places emphasis on quick transitions, movement, high tempo football, pressing and winning the ball high up the pitch doesn't close out games in the same way as a defensive machine like Chelsea. Plus we are in our first season under a new manager and he is working hard to get the first steps in his overall philosophy implemented. Its pretty early to be calling on us to be playing attractive football, pressing high and scoring goals WHILST being completely solid and shutting out games and winning comfortably whilst integrating academy products and having the youngest team in the league.

If we are going to be demanding that then we are a bit of an impatient lot.

 

[parklane1]

I don't agree with that. Chelsea have the experience and technical nous to go along with their defensive mind set and canny players and shut games down. They are masters of stifling the life out of games and grinding opponents down. I don't think we gave up in the LC Final, but Chelsea shut up shop in a way few other teams can. The amount of times you watch a Chelsea match and they don't look at the races only to realise the opposition hasn't had a shot on target.

I think all teams have a go, but Chelsea just have the skill of keeping opponents at arms length.

Why can't we do it? We are young, very attack minded, high tempo and fluid. Tactically we are completely dissimilar to Chelsea. It makes sense that a team who places emphasis on quick transitions, movement, high tempo football, pressing and winning the ball high up the pitch doesn't close out games in the same way as a defensive machine like Chelsea. Plus we are in our first season under a new manager and he is working hard to get the first steps in his overall philosophy implemented. Its pretty early to be calling on us to be playing attractive football, pressing high and scoring goals WHILST being completely solid and shutting out games and winning comfortably whilst integrating academy products and having the youngest team in the league.

If we are going to be demanding that then we are a bit of an unpatient lot.

Have you only just realized that

 

[braineclipse]

Isn't a better question - why do we keep winning these games we'd traditionally throw away?

Agreed. Used to be that people complain about us not going for the 2nd goal, now we get it and the buffer it means. So we get away with sometimes conceding one towards the end.

Most PL sides look vulnerable if they only lead by one going into the final 10 minutes. Particularly so if they just conceded to make a two goal lead a one goal lead.

Certainly still work to be done though. Experience, a bit more quality in the squad. Bit more cynicism too. Though we responded fairly well both against Swansea and against QPR after conceding actually.

I think our defensive is decent, although better when Fazio is there to organise it.

I think our issue in the last 15-20 minutes is that our Masaleb screen tires and we aren't quick enough to bring on Stambouli to maintain the pressing intensity

Not sure that adds up? When chasing a game we look one of the fittest teams in the league in the final 15-20 and usually Mason and/or Bentaleb are left on. I see no reason why we should be tiring more than other teams towards the end when in the lead?

 

[NWND]

My point is very straightforward actually and most of the other posters understood it.

Did we close the game against Swansea when we only won thanks to Lloris? Did we close it against QPR when we got the refereeing rub of the green?

Why do the likes of Liverpool, Southampton, not to mention United, etc manage to regularly close up shop after getting the second goal and regularly wind the game down with minimal hassle. The only game I remember us doing that in was West Brom away. Why do we constantly give away a goal towards the end of the match making things so much more difficult than they should be?

My point should also be equally easy to understand. Liverpool, Southampton and United don't regularly manage to close up shop after getting a second goal and in Southampton's case very rarely this season manage to get a second goal, winning a lot of games by one goal similar to ourselves. Liverpool recently are on a very good run of form, but for a lot of this season, they have been rattled and battered in the games they've managed to win. United have been scraping results playing pretty poorly and surviving onslaughts in games after nicking our goal, and as per my point, have lost significant leads this season. Emirates Marketing Project lost a 2-0 lead at home to Burnley this season for example.

Your idea that we're the only team that have to scrap for points and come under the cosh in games is ridiculous and think its one of perception. When you watch these other teams defend balls into the box on Sky defending a narrow lead, your heart isn't in your mouth, whereas for fans of those teams, it would be. The perception on the other hand when you are watching Spurs play is that when the lead is narrow, you're nervous and everytime we defend an attack you're panicked, therefore you feel that the defending is panicked and we're riding our luck.

We did not win against Swansea because of Lloris, he made one amazing save in a game we were entirely comfortable in for the majority of the 90 minutes.

We were more reliant on luck versus QPR, but as per my point as well, Arsenal also got battered by QPR and saw a 2-0 lead turn to 2-1 later on in the game.

We're far from the only team that has to fight and defend on the edge of safety for points, as the quality in the division is so high that even the bottom clubs on their day will give the best teams a game.

 

[NWND]

Ive not read all of the posts above but I think some of the problems are with the fact other teams know we cant see a game out and genuinely have a proper go at us when we are leading. You dont get that with other teams, they just accept defeat at a ground like chelsea and give up.

We can't see a game out? Name the games where we've lost a lead, that are supposedly giving these teams such encouragement.

 

[Eriktheviking]

We can't see a game out? Name the games where we've lost a lead, that are supposedly giving these teams such encouragement.

It's a fair point. I'm not that bothered to be honest that we are under the cosh at the end of matches but we give teams encouragement by generally having our backs against the wall during the last 15 minutes of a match. However, as you quite rightly say, the haven't been too many times that we have lost a lead.

 

[Coys300]

It's a combination of us usually trying to play football and lack of experience on the pitch. The former means that we are always trying to actually play football, it's our philosophy, even in situations where it's perhaps better to just hoof the ball forward. Chelsea for example completely park the bus and start playing with 11 players in their own half once they are a goal ahead. Even Arsenal have started playing more like that this year. We usually don't do that, not to those extreme levels. Even when we're ahead and there isn't that long to play anymore you still see us playing with a relatively high-line, passing the ball out of the back instead of just hoofing it forward and hope for the best and still committing quite a few players forward. The other problem is experience. A lot of players are still learning, players like Terry and Ivanovic have mastered the art of closing games down throughout the years, we have very few players with sufficient experience compared to that.

 

[alekaras]

We can't see a game out? Name the games where we've lost a lead, that are supposedly giving these teams such encouragement.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Crystal Palace, Leicester (FA Cup) - losses
Sunderland, Arse, Besiktas, Burnley, Sheffield, Fiorentina - draws

Granted we have never lost points after leading by two goals.

 

[nayenezgani]

I think it's a mixture of a lack of defensive leadership and inexperienced naivety.. Our youthful fitness keeps us in games to the end, which is fantastic, but the flashes of naivety are the trade off.

Our switching off after scoring goals in particular needs to be sorted out.. I think Vertonghen lacks leadership ability, I think he requires guidance himself, someone to keep him 'up' and his eye on the prize.

Dier could become a leader in time, but I think a seasoned, commanding central defender is something we need to get in the coming transfer window.

Whether that's Moreno or someone else, say Simon Kjaer or someone of that ilk? I'm not sure.

 

[alekaras]

Anyone think Lloris should do a better job at organizing the defence himself?

 

[nayenezgani]

I think he tries very hard, you see how tinkled off he is when we switch off.. I think it's a lack of care on the behalf of a couple of our senior defenders.

 

[NWND]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Crystal Palace, Leicester (FA Cup) - losses
Sunderland, Arse, Besiktas, Burnley, Sheffield, Fiorentina - draws

Granted we have never lost points after leading by two goals.

That's quite a paltry selection given the volume of games we've played. I'd ask again, given that we don't generally surrender leads, what is giving teams encouragement that we can't see a game out when the evidence suggests we can?

 

[braineclipse]

That's quite a paltry selection given the volume of games we've played. I'd ask again, given that we don't generally surrender leads, what is giving teams encouragement that we can't see a game out when the evidence suggests we can?

I think it's an impression stemming in part from comparing us to the very best (essentially Chelsea) and the fact that it just hurts so much when it happens to us and we're so damned nervous whenever we're playing. It's difficult to compare objectively to other teams it's natural to compare us to.

 

[tynesidespur]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Crystal Palace, Leicester (FA Cup) - losses
Sunderland, Arse, Besiktas, Burnley, Sheffield, Fiorentina - draws
Granted we have never lost points after leading by two goals.

These are good examples and lead into the point raised below...

I don't agree with that. Chelsea have the experience and technical nous to go along with their defensive mind set and canny players and shut games down. They are masters of stifling the life out of games and grinding opponents down. I don't think we gave up in the LC Final, but Chelsea shut up shop in a way few other teams can. The amount of times you watch a Chelsea match and they don't look at the races only to realise the opposition hasn't had a shot on target.

I think all teams have a go, but Chelsea just have the skill of keeping opponents at arms length.

Why can't we do it? We are young, very attack minded, high tempo and fluid. Tactically we are completely dissimilar to Chelsea. It makes sense that a team who places emphasis on quick transitions, movement, high tempo football, pressing and winning the ball high up the pitch doesn't close out games in the same way as a defensive machine like Chelsea. Plus we are in our first season under a new manager and he is working hard to get the first steps in his overall philosophy implemented. Its pretty early to be calling on us to be playing attractive football, pressing high and scoring goals WHILST being completely solid and shutting out games and winning comfortably whilst integrating academy products and having the youngest team in the league.

If we are going to be demanding that then we are a bit of an impatient lot.

Chelsea are indeed a well-drilled machine who know how to see out games. Also agree that we are setup very differently.
However in the games listed above (especially those in bold) we weren't just winning we were in total control of the match - controlling the possession and the tempo of the game. At some point, which I admit will always happen, the opposition builds up a head of steam and creates chances and often scores a goal. What I have a particular problem with is the fact that we seem to lose our heads during these periods and are under severe threat of conceding a 2nd. We did so in the games listed above. For example:

Sheff Utd - dominating chances created and possession for 70+ mins. Utd score, we panic on the ball and concede a soft second goal within minutes.
Palace - neither side playing well but we have more possession and score the opening goal in the 2nd half. An equaliser comes and we fold and let in a late 2nd.

In some other games:
West Brom - absolutely battered them for 30 mins, 2 goals up and cruising. Then West Brom build up a head of steam and create 3-4 outstanding chances in the 15 mins before half time. On another day they score at least 1 goal (on the day they hit the post/Lloris bailed us out).
Swansea has been mentioned - a superb performance until the 89th minute. Swansea score what looks like a consolation but its like amateur hour into injury time as we not only concede possession but also give up a couple of chances which on another day they score.
Liverpool - stay with them through the whole game and with 10 mins to go Liverpool look like they've run out of steam only for us to make a cheap mistake in defence and allow them to score a late winner.


The common theme in all of those games is not just the concession of 1 or more goals, its our lack of control of the game immediately following concession. The ball becomes like a hot potato and we turn over possession cheaply. That leads to chances created by the opposition which inevitably leads to goals. We seem to play the game at 100mph whatever the situation is. We need in-game intelligence - calm it down, play the ball about and take the sting out of the game. Some of the players panic when we concede a goal. We need to be much much better when we concede. If we are turning over the ball then retreat, make the team shape solid and see out the game. Other teams don't seem to give up as many chances in my opinion. Its quite clearly reflected in our goal difference when compared to other teams around the same area.

 

[billyiddo]

Fans will look at their own teams matches a lot differently to how they watch others as a neutral - this thread a perfect example.

Very rare in this league your opponents will lay down and die for you, even when behind - id wager we are no worse than our rivals when it comes to seeing games out.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Fans will look at their own teams matches a lot differently to how they watch others as a neutral - this thread a perfect example.

Very rare in this league your opponents will lay down and die for you, even when behind - id wager we are no worse than our rivals when it comes to seeing games out.

You make a very valid argument; but I still think my original point remains to some extent or other. All you have to do is see how many games we won by a margin of 2 or more - WBA away (and even then had the post not bailed us out we could have easily lost our lead in the second half and QPR home). I take what many people said that our style, youth and supporter pressure could be relevant factors but it would be great for once to sit back and relax with 15 minutes to go, feeling that the game is in the bag...

 

[NWND]

These are good examples and lead into the point raised below...



Chelsea are indeed a well-drilled machine who know how to see out games. Also agree that we are setup very differently.
However in the games listed above (especially those in bold) we weren't just winning we were in total control of the match - controlling the possession and the tempo of the game. At some point, which I admit will always happen, the opposition builds up a head of steam and creates chances and often scores a goal. What I have a particular problem with is the fact that we seem to lose our heads during these periods and are under severe threat of conceding a 2nd. We did so in the games listed above. For example:

Sheff Utd - dominating chances created and possession for 70+ mins. Utd score, we panic on the ball and concede a soft second goal within minutes.
Palace - neither side playing well but we have more possession and score the opening goal in the 2nd half. An equaliser comes and we fold and let in a late 2nd.

In some other games:
West Brom - absolutely battered them for 30 mins, 2 goals up and cruising. Then West Brom build up a head of steam and create 3-4 outstanding chances in the 15 mins before half time. On another day they score at least 1 goal (on the day they hit the post/Lloris bailed us out).
Swansea has been mentioned - a superb performance until the 89th minute. Swansea score what looks like a consolation but its like amateur hour into injury time as we not only concede possession but also give up a couple of chances which on another day they score.
Liverpool - stay with them through the whole game and with 10 mins to go Liverpool look like they've run out of steam only for us to make a cheap mistake in defence and allow them to score a late winner.


The common theme in all of those games is not just the concession of 1 or more goals, its our lack of control of the game immediately following concession. The ball becomes like a hot potato and we turn over possession cheaply. That leads to chances created by the opposition which inevitably leads to goals. We seem to play the game at 100mph whatever the situation is. We need in-game intelligence - calm it down, play the ball about and take the sting out of the game. Some of the players panic when we concede a goal. We need to be much much better when we concede. If we are turning over the ball then retreat, make the team shape solid and see out the game. Other teams don't seem to give up as many chances in my opinion. Its quite clearly reflected in our goal difference when compared to other teams around the same area.

Just like any other team then? It's so funny that you mention Chelsea as being the ideal team at 'seeing out a game'. Let's look at the game they played against us? 1-0 up and cruising and battering us, then concede to a Kane thunderbolt out of nothing and suddenly the ball is a hot potato and they turned over possession cheaply and that leads to chances created by the opposition which inevitably led to goals, friggin 4 of them. WHEN this season have we turned a 1-0 lead into a 4-1 deficit this season? Yet the team you hold up as being the perfect team at seeing out a game did exactly that against the team that you feel are incompetent at doing the same.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Just like any other team then? It's so funny that you mention Chelsea as being the ideal team at 'seeing out a game'. Let's look at the game they played against us? 1-0 up and cruising and battering us, then concede to a Kane thunderbolt out of nothing and suddenly the ball is a hot potato and they turned over possession cheaply and that leads to chances created by the opposition which inevitably led to goals, friggin 4 of them. WHEN this season have we turned a 1-0 lead into a 4-1 deficit this season? Yet the team you hold up as being the perfect team at seeing out a game did exactly that against the team that you feel are incompetent at doing the same.

One swallow does not a summer make...

 

[NWND]

One swallow does not a summer make...

Yes, but we haven't ever done that this season, neither have we lost a 2 goal lead, which Emirates Marketing Project have done, which United have done.

We've lost a lead a handful of times this season. Only 4 times in the league. 4 times! Only 2 resulted in defeats. Yet we supposedly can't see a game out?

Teams have to defend on the edge in this league. The amount of times I see John Terry throwing himself at last-ditch blocks and clearing off the line for Chelsea...but as we sit there as neutrals, or even anti-Chelsea fans, we're not remotely nervous watching it. Chelsea fans on the other hand...

 

[NWND]

I mean, some guy above has used the fcuking West Brom away game, the fcking West Brom away game, as a fcking example of us not being able to see a game out. We won 3 fcking 0. But because they, a comfortable Premiership team, had the audacity, the fcking termerity to create some fckin chances on their own pitch at their own ground in a game they otherwise got di*ked in, we can't fcking defend a lead? 3 fcking 0. And i'm sat here wondering what these goons point is, and i'm realising, they don't have a point, they're just talking absolute brick on an internet forum and trying to justify it and come up with solutions that for problems that don't exist and i need a fcking drink!