Who is the best Spurs manager/coach of the Premier League era?

[Kingdawson]

But we just went player by player and discovered that is not really the case. Players like Modric and Bale were massive - how can we compare those to Jenas and Malbranque

Emirates Marketing Project didn't have so many great players yet during the Sparky years - here's the team we defeated 1:0 at the Wastelands

38 Fulop
03 Bridge
05 Zabaleta
28 Kolo Toure
33 Kompany
11 A Johnson (Wright-Phillips 71)
18 Barry (Vieira 57)
34 De Jong
25 Adebayor
32 Tevez
39 Bellamy (Santa Cruz 84)

Apart from Tevez and Kompany - compare the rest to their current array of world class units

it's irrelevant who they spent the cash on and whether the players ended up flops...they still had the ££££££ so of course we have to take them into consideration. i mean that's natural.

You can go player for player and simply do a >>>> comparison but i like to look at the bigger picture when deciding these things tbh.

 

[ArcspacE]

it's irrelevant who they spent the cash on and whether the players ended up flops...they still had the ££££££ so of course we have to take them into consideration. i mean that's natural.

I don't think it's irrelevant at all since we compete with the actual players on the field of play and not their bank account figures - therefore it's important to look at their respective squad at the time.

 

[Kingdawson]

1 GK Shay Given 35(0) 3(0) 6(0) 44(0) 2
2 DF Micah Richards 23(4) 3 2(0) 4(0) 29(4) 3 4
3 DF Wayne Bridge 23(0) 2(0) 3(0) 28(0) 2
4 DF Nedum Onuoha 10(5) 1 2(0) 1 1(1) 13(6) 2
5 DF Pablo Zabaleta 27(4) 4(1) 4(0) 35(5) 12 1 / -
6 MF Michael Johnson 1(1) 1(1) 1 2(2) 1
7 MF Stephen Ireland 22(6) 2 3(0) 5(1) 1 30(7) 3
8 MF Shaun Wright-Phillips 30 (11) 4 2(1) 1 6(0) 2 38 (12) 7 2
10 FW Robinho 10(4) 1(0) 1 1(0) 12(4) 1
11 MF Adam Johnson 16(2) 1 16(2) 1 1
12 GK Stuart Taylor 1(0) 1(0)
14 FW Roque Santa Cruz 19 (13) 3 2(2) 1(0) 1 22 (15) 4 1
15 DF Javier Garrido 9(2) 1 1(0) 2(0) 12(2) 1 2
16 DF Sylvinho 10(4) 3(1) 1 2(1) 15(6) 1 3
17 MF Martin Petrov 17(9) 4 4(1) 1 1(1) 22 (11) 5
18 MF Gareth Barry 34(0) 2 3(1) 6(0) 1 43(1) 3 5
19 DF Joleon Lescott 19(1) 1 2(0) 4(0) 1 25(1) 2 1
24 MF Patrick Vieira 13(5) 1 1(1) 14(6) 1 2
25 FW Emmanuel Adebayor 26(1) 14 2(0) 3(1) 31(2) 14 1 - / 1
27 FW Benjani Mwaruwari 2(1) 2(0) 1 2(2) 6(3) 1
28 DF Kolo Touré (c) 31(0) 1 1(0) 3(0) 1 35(0) 2 1
32 FW Carlos Tévez 35(3) 23 1(1) 6(0) 6 42(4) 29 7
33 DF Vincent Kompany 25(4) 2 3(0) 4(1) 32(5) 2 3
34 MF Nigel de Jong 34(4) 3(0) 5(1) 42(5) 9
37 GK Gunnar Nielsen 1(1) 1(1)
38 GK Márton Fülöp 3(0) 3(0)
39 FW Craig Bellamy 32(6) 10 3(2) 1 5(1) 40(9) 11 7 1 / -
40 MF Vladimir Weiss 1(0) 3(3) 1 4(3) 1
44 DF Dedryck Boyata 3(2) 2(0) 2(0) 7(2) 1
45 DF Greg Cunningham 2(2) 1(1) 3(3) 1
48 MF Abdisalam Ibrahim 1(1) 1(0) 2(1)
52 FW Alex Tchuimeni-Nimely 1(1) 1(1)


This wasn't a better squad at the time in your opinion?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Those teams never finished above us though and had some very good players at the time - let's keep perspective of that too, please

They had some good players, for sure, but we had far more clout and I don't think Arnesen's or Comolli's efforts in getting good value deals done can be much doubted. This compares with the situation in 2009 when Emirates Marketing Project were into the 3rd year of throwing their weight about, we had Liverpool slipping down the table but with still considerably more clout than the likes of Bolton or Blackburn between 2005-07 and Everton had further consolidated by then. It was much more competitive environment in that part of the table. I don't see how that can be doubted. Under Jol, given his performance before, we'd have probably been looking at 6th-7th place finish. Again, Redknapp finished above Emirates Marketing Project twice, Liverpool twice and Chelsea once. And Everton and Villa every year too, by some distance. Jol, at best, can point at edging out Villa under M'ON or Moyes at Everton.

Reading had one good season - much like so many other promoted teams have done in the past

Not sure of the point? Why can't the same logic be applied to us? The challenge on Arsenal was just a one off for Jol and everything else was more standard? In fact, probably close to the truth.

Sparky has been struggling ever since to replicate that form eslewhere (with much bigger spending budgets, mind you)

Jol on the other hand - has been pefroming well in most clubs ever since we left WHL and seems to be onto something at Fulham again. fudging hell, the has a much better strike force than us on a fraction of the budget.

Not sure this follows really. A career path that has gone Hamburg > Ajax > Fulham, with one sacking and one mutual departure from the first two and ending up at a club that doesn't have anything like the same stature, suggests a sort of scraping along the bottom since leaving Tottenham. Nothing too terrible but not 'performing well'.

Also Hughes finished 8th in his one year at Fulham. Jol taking on that team, losing no key players, and adding in Ruiz, finished.... 9th. Hodgson managed 7th a couple of years before and then got them to a European final. So it should be remembered he was hardly taking on a mug club here and they are massively subsidised by Al-Fayed. Again, no doubt he's not doing terrible but on current evidence the top clubs won't be knocking down his door to speak to him!

 

[Kingdawson]

They had some good players, for sure, but we had far more clout and I don't think Arnesen's or Comolli's efforts in getting good value deals done can be much doubted. This compares with the situation in 2009 when Emirates Marketing Project were into the 3rd year of throwing their weight about, we had Liverpool slipping down the table but with still considerably more clout than the likes of Bolton or Blackburn between 2005-07 and Everton had further consolidated by then. It was much more competitive environment in that part of the table. I don't see how that can be doubted. Under Jol, given his performance before, we'd have probably been looking at 6th-7th place finish. Again, Redknapp finished above Emirates Marketing Project twice, Liverpool twice and Chelsea once. And Everton and Villa every year too, by some distance. Jol, at best, can point at edging out Villa under M'ON or Moyes at Everton.



Not sure of the point? Why can't the same logic be applied to us? The challenge on Arsenal was just a one off for Jol and everything else was more standard? In fact, probably close to the truth.



Not sure this follows really. A career path that has gone Hamburg > Ajax > Fulham, with one sacking and one mutual departure from the first two and ending up at a club that doesn't have anything like the same stature, suggests a sort of scraping along the bottom since leaving Tottenham. Nothing too terrible but not 'performing well'.

Also Hughes finished 8th in his one year at Fulham. Jol taking on that team, losing no key players, and adding in Ruiz, finished.... 9th. Hodgson managed 7th a couple of years before and then got them to a European final. So it should be remembered he was hardly taking on a mug club here and they are massively subsidised by Al-Fayed. Again, no doubt he's not doing terrible but on current evidence the top clubs won't be knocking down his door to speak to him!

Excellent point.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all since we compete with the actual players on the field of play and not their bank account figures - therefore it's important to look at their respective squad at the time.

It also means the issue can be muddled because the ability of individual squads and players is very subjective, whereas the spending power of specific clubs is a bit more measurable? No? It doesn't take a genius to work out why Emirates Marketing Project went from 10th to Champions in the space of a few years.

 

[ledley's knee injections]

People seem to be asking three different questions: who was their favourite manager, who had the best team, and who made the most of what he had and improved the team available. The first two are easy, Jol and Redknapp.

The last, which is what the question asks, is more difficult. We know the results 'Arry achieved in the league, we know how he improved a number of younger players, and got us over the hurdle of beating the top teams. Against that he didn't rotate effectively leading to late season slumps in the last two seasons and he disregarded the lesser competitions (the Doneskh games in particular still rankle). Under Jol we had a far weaker team, yet still almost overtook Arsenal in the league despite a wage bill less than half theirs. Jol got twice the points per million pounds spent on wages that Wenger did. Against Jol was an inability to win the big games. Both played an attractive style of football, both lacked full support from the club in the transfer market, both entertained the possibility of other jobs (Saudi Sportswashing Machine, England) while our manager, neither won a trophy. I think its possible to make a good case for either being better by emphasising different criteria. In the end I picked 'Arry because of the better performance in the bigger games. He did have the better players, but he also helped them become better players.

Very good, and very fair, post. I agree with this.

 

[ArcspacE]

Also Hughes finished 8th in his one year at Fulham. Jol taking on that team, losing no key players, and adding in Ruiz, finished.... 9th.

He lost Zamora in January - massive player for them. Gera also was a valuable / experienced midfield unit - so, not really.

Hodgson managed 7th a couple of years before and then got them to a European final. So it should be remembered he was hardly taking on a mug club here and they are massively subsidised by Al-Fayed. Again, no doubt he's not doing terrible but on current evidence the top clubs won't be knocking down his door to speak to him!

Jol managed Hamburger SV and Ajax Amsterdam prior - hardly the Wigans of Europe

 

[ArcspacE]

This wasn't a better squad at the time in your opinion?

Better than us or better than now?

The squad we defeated 1:0 was marginally better than ours - mosty upfront (predicably so)

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Ipswich?

You made reference to big Sam and how Jol has finished above him because the former had no money

No, I think you've picked up parts of what I've said and tried to lump them together. It was two seperate points. Some clubs have achieved the same with little or no money. Others were/have been in and around the top 6 with a fraction of the resources Jol had at his disposal. Even your own stats above show that! The point about Blackburn being 2 points behind us in 2006 and Bolton and Reading being close in 2007 (and above us for nearly the whole season!) just further illustrates the point and obviously directly when Jol was in charge.

 

[ArcspacE]

Not sure of the point? Why can't the same logic be applied to us? The challenge on Arsenal was just a one off for Jol and everything else was more standard? In fact, probably close to the truth.

Point being - you attempted to devaluate his finishing position in the league by comparing us to Reading once off blip.

Then in the same sentence conclusively state it was a once-off against Arsenal eventhough we managed the same position 2 season in a row.

 

[ArcspacE]

No, I think you've picked up parts of what I've said and tried to lump them together. It was two seperate points. Some clubs have achieved the same with little or no money. Others were/have been in and around the top 6 with a fraction of the resources Jol had at his disposal. Even your own stats above show that! The point about Blackburn being 2 points behind us in 2006 and Bolton and Reading being close in 2007 (and above us for nearly the whole season!) just further illustrates the point and obviously directly when Jol was in charge.

You just attribued Jol achievements as once off - so how are Rovers and Reading any different considering in never happened again while Jol did it twice? (using the same logic)


in 2005-06 we were 6th (behind Sky 4 and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, with Everton and Villa just behind us)
in 2006-07 we were 7th (behind Sky 4 and Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Ham, with Villa virtually tied with us)
in 2007-08 we were 9th (behind Sky 4 and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, West Ham, Emirates Marketing Project and Portsmouth)
in 2008-09 we were 10th (behind Sky 4 and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, West Ham, Emirates Marketing Project, Portsmouth and Aston Villa)
in 2009-10 we were 7th or 8th (behind Sky 4 and Emirates Marketing Project, Aston Villa and probably Portsmouth)



Little money? Look at WHU and Saudi Sportswashing Machine's figures, please

 

[Kingdawson]

]He lost Zamora in January - massive player for them.[/B] Gera also was a valuable / experienced midfield unit - so, not really.

Have you seen any of Jol's recent interviews regarding Zamora? he makes it perfectly clear that he didn't like him and thought pogrebnyak was a far better player. Appatrently Zamora snitched about something regarding Jol to the media and Jol mentions it quite a bit during interviews.

Nevertheless that was entirely his decision to sell Zamora and bring in Pogrebnyak who he claims is a better player so there's no way we can name Zamora as a "massive player" when Jol himself couldn't wait to get rid.

 

[ArcspacE]

Harry - so far you've claimed

- teams who finished around us that time had no money - not true

Then it changed to

- little or no money - not true

Then stated Jol finished lower with the same Fulham squad - not true - he lost 2 key players

Then claimed Jol's was a once off against Arse - happened twice however

 

[ArcspacE]

Have you seen any of Jol's recent interviews regarding Zamora? he makes it perfectly clear that he didn't like him and thought pogrebnyak was a far better player. Appatrently Zamora snitched about something regarding Jol to the media and Jol mentions it quite a bit during interviews.

Nevertheless that was entirely his decision to sell Zamora and bring in Pogrebnyak who he claims is a better player so there's no way we can name Zamora as a "massive player" when Jol himself couldn't wait to get rid.

He was scoring goals for them - yes, of course he was a massive player - their personal issues does not devalue his impact on the field of play.

If Bale and AVB had a fight tomorrow and he was sold - does that mean we've lost a key player or not?

Seriously

 

[Kingdawson]

He was scoring goals for them - yes, of course he was a massive player - their personal issues does not devalue his impact on the field of play.

If Bale and AVB had a fight tomorrow and he was sold - does that mean we've lost a key player or not?

Seriously

Seriously what?

was he scoring goals consistently for them that season? i could have sworn he was mostly on the bench? i'll check.

 

[ArcspacE]

Seriously what?

was he scoring goals consistently for them that season? i could have sworn he was mostly on the bench? i'll check.

He was an important / key player and even more so from the squad which finished 7th the season before - Harry's original claim of no key players leaving

Zamora left

Gera left

both key players from the previous (apparently superior to Jol's) season

 

[ArcspacE]

Seriously what?

If a player leavs for personal reasons (i.e. fight) - does not devalueate his previous impact in the squad - as a footballer

 

[Hotspur]

Redknapp, but we needed the cange this summer.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Then claimed Jol's was a once off against Arse - happened twice however

No, it didn't. We were nowhere near challenging Arsenal in 06/07. We spent most of the season in midtable and only a rally late got us there. Very different from the season before we were there or threreabouts for nearly the whole of the season We finisher closer to Reading, Bolton, Pompey in 2007 than compared with Arsenal. And the same number of points ahead of Blackburn.

I did not claim clubs in and around the top 6 had spent little money. I said they had spent a fraction of what we had and had a fraction of our clout overall. Which is surely completely uncontroversial, even by your own stats? I never mentioned Villa, for a start. West Ham are only mentioned in connection with Redknapp finishing 5th, when they were certainly not spending 60m in one summer - so some of the higher figures haven't even got anything to do with the price of fish.

And I don't accept he lost two key players. Gera was allowed to leave on free to WBA. Which is odd if he was a key player the previous season. Zamora left at the end of January. They'd signed Ruiz in the season. Can't see how they were much weaker at all. Stronger, in fact.