What went wrong today?

[billyiddo]

FAR too early to be drawing any of those conclusions El Guepardo (i appreciate their not your opinions but still...)

 

[diego_maradona]

So there's a dispute over who is better between Holtby and Eriksen.

Defoe has been picked to start ahead of Soldado. Paulinho is being thought about as the player to drop to allow a Sandro & Dembele central partnership.

Lamela is being criticised for not meeting expectations.

Chiriches won't displace Vertonghen or Dawson.

Chadli seems to be a bit part player.

Capoue is out injured already.

Did AVB spend the money wisely? I'm not saying that I agree with the points above but those are comments or tactical choices which have either been made, or mooted on this forum.

Is the result today really a demonstration of AVB's failings in the transfer market?

I would say they are all massive over reactions after what is a horrendous day at the office today. We shouldn't ignore our failings on the day, and we need to learn from them. But my faith in the squad remains. It's a talented squad. Let's hope we go on a 20 game unbeaten run now (mosty winning!)

 

[El Guepardo]

FAR too early to be drawing any of those conclusions El Guepardo (i appreciate their not your opinions but still...)

I agree with that. I think we've signed some excellent players. I do think the signings left weaknesses unsolved though.

We need a reserve left back, I think we need a first choice left back but I can understand that Rose has some qualities. Additionally, I think we're lacking depth for left wing. Sigurdsson isn't a left winger. If you're going to play him there, we may as well use Holtby. Holtby creates chances, Sigurdsson seems to roam in to the box looking for chances that arise but isn't creative enough.

I think Eriksen needs to chip in with more goals, perhaps he will in time. Paulinho too.

I am pleased with the players that we did sign though. I think they'll prove their worth.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Must say I'm surprised to see people writing that Dembele should play ahead of Paulinho. I've not noticed him stalling our attacks, If anything, I've seen him slip some decent balls through to our forwards. The only thing I would accuse him of so far is wasteful finishing. He could have easily scored 6 or 7 goals with the amount of chances he's had but he's getting into those positions which is good. I believe we bought him because he can finally give us goals from midfield. He's only been in the league 2 months and the only thing that's stopped him from racking up a good return of goals is sloppy finishing. Sandro and Paulinho would be my preferred partnership.

Now if you want to talk midfielders who stall attacks, then let's talk about Dembele. It's bad enough he doesn't possess the ability to play a killer final ball, but he doesn't even see it most of the time. I love the way he goes past other players like they are not there and he is strong, but I don't see the need for him AND Sandro unless we're playing tough/er opposition. Just who exactly is going to contribute goals from the midfield if Demeble and Sandro are two of the 5 midfielders? We'd be putting an awful lot of pressure on Soldado who hasn't got off to the best start as it stands.

If we can finally get Kaboul to play more than 2 games without getting injured then I think he has to be the other central defender alongside Vertonghen, to play a high line with two slow CB's like the current two seems daft to put it lightly.

As for Naughton/Ekotto, I've made my feelings clear. Please, please play Vertonghen left back when Rose is not fit and whichever centre halves are fit.

 

[billyiddo]

it's all about time, same as when people were writing off AVB after a handful of games (or even prior to that) gotta give these signings time to show their worth - there are plenty of examples of players who take time to produce the goods just the same as there are those who look the business from the off but then fade away in to average-ness

 

[diego_maradona]

Must say I'm surprised to see people writing that Dembele should play ahead of Paulinho. I've not noticed him stalling our attacks, If anything, I've seen him slip some decent balls through to our forwards. The only thing I would accuse him of so far is wasteful finishing. He could have easily scored 6 or 7 goals with the amount of chances he's had but he's getting into those positions which is good. I believe we bought him because he can finally give us goals from midfield. He's only been in the league 2 months and the only thing that's stopped him from racking up a good return of goals is sloppy finishing. Sandro and Paulinho would be my preferred partnership.

Now if you want to talk midfielders who stall attacks, then let's talk about Dembele. It's bad enough he doesn't possess the ability to play a killer final ball, but he doesn't even see it most of the time. I love the way he goes past other players like they are not there and he is strong, but I don't see the need for him AND Sandro unless we're playing tough/er opposition. Just who exactly is going to contribute goals from the midfield if Demeble and Sandro are two of the 5 midfielders? We'd be putting an awful lot of pressure on Soldado who hasn't got off to the best start as it stands.

See this is where I see it differently. I think Mouse and Sandro hold. They absolutely dominate the midfield and ensure we remain in possession. There both incredible DM's in my view which give us a solid base. I certainly don't see us leaking 3 pathetic goals at home like today. I'm not pinning that on Paulinho, but I think the solid platform allows us to dominate and get players like Eriksen, Siggy, Townsend, Lamela, Lennon, Holtby, Chadli and the strikers a chance to shine.

Paulinho is also a very good option and is a better attacking threat than any of our other midfielders. But my strategy would be to destroy and win possession first.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Your only as good as your last game. We have some fantastic players. But not a settled team. All these questions about formation and who plays are to be expected. And, as in the other thread about scoring goals, it is a massive unresolved issue. Who will step up and score the goals? Today we were desperate to score and committed more and more trying to break through. But it didn't work.

AVB needs some time. Such a result was expected at the start of the season with so many new players. Now its come it may allow for some proper reflection, and for AVB to bring us back galvanized and stronger.

 

[africanspurs]

tbh mate i agree with Billy here...there's no way Defoe has better movement than Soldado and there's absolutely no way Defoe works better with the team than Soldado.

You must remember my constant posts about how limited Soldado's game is before we signed him. Despite it being somewhat limited you learn to appreciate it when you see the sort of ****e Defoe has to offer. Soldado can pick a pass and has excellent movement...Defoe pick a pass? nah he prefers the head down and shoot routine again and again.

billy hasnt actually said anything. You on the other hand have. I appreciate that, plus you tend to ask probing questions, i've got one for you at the end

we are going to have to disagree on this. I dont see soldado as someone i rely on to participate in a game. He is constantly on the peripherals of the game waiting for that one killer pass. means we play a man light IMV. defoe at the very least makes it more of a an even 10 v 10 on a the map....and his movement is not that bad, not anymore anyway

let me ask you this, would you rather have 10 men that all get involved in build up or 9 men that do that and one guy waiting for his time to get his chance?

Do you also think that soldado gets involved in overall team play than defoe?

has soldado consistently operated for us anywhere other than the last line of the opposition defense?

does soldado even work the wide channels often?

who has more chances to score in game between soldado and defoe?

 

[braineclipse]

African: Based on that would you expect Defoe to attempt or complete more passes per game than Soldado? (I really don't think he does)

What do you mean by participating in the game, if it's not related to passes?

 

[Pirate55]

Must say I'm surprised to see people writing that Dembele should play ahead of Paulinho. I've not noticed him stalling our attacks, If anything, I've seen him slip some decent balls through to our forwards. The only thing I would accuse him of so far is wasteful finishing. He could have easily scored 6 or 7 goals with the amount of chances he's had but he's getting into those positions which is good. I believe we bought him because he can finally give us goals from midfield. He's only been in the league 2 months and the only thing that's stopped him from racking up a good return of goals is sloppy finishing. Sandro and Paulinho would be my preferred partnership.

Now if you want to talk midfielders who stall attacks, then let's talk about Dembele. It's bad enough he doesn't possess the ability to play a killer final ball, but he doesn't even see it most of the time. I love the way he goes past other players like they are not there and he is strong, but I don't see the need for him AND Sandro unless we're playing tough/er opposition. Just who exactly is going to contribute goals from the midfield if Demeble and Sandro are two of the 5 midfielders? We'd be putting an awful lot of pressure on Soldado who hasn't got off to the best start as it stands.

If we can finally get Kaboul to play more than 2 games without getting injured then I think he has to be the other central defender alongside Vertonghen, to play a high line with two slow CB's like the current two seems daft to put it lightly.

As for Naughton/Ekotto, I've made my feelings clear. Please, please play Vertonghen left back when Rose is not fit and whichever centre halves are fit.

Agree. But we desperately need to buy an attacking LB in the window. We are soooo unbalanced if Rose is injured.

 

[Kingdawson]

billy hasnt actually said anything. You on the other hand have. I appreciate that, plus you tend to ask probing questions, i've got one for you at the end

we are going to have to disagree on this. I dont see soldado as someone i rely on to participate in a game. He is constantly on the peripherals of the game waiting for that one killer pass. means we play a man light IMV. defoe at the very least makes it more of a an even 10 v 10 on a the map....and his movement is not that bad, not anymore anyway

let me ask you this, would you rather have 10 men that all get involved in build up or 9 men that do that and one guy waiting for his time to get his chance?

Do you also think that soldado gets involved in overall team play than defoe?

has soldado consistently operated for us anywhere other than the last line of the opposition defense?

does soldado even work the wide channels often?

who has more chances to score in game between soldado and defoe?

1) I would rather 10 get involved.

2) I think Soldado gets involved more than Defoe.

3) No...he's moved to the flanks a few times and has dropped deep a few times but generally he's on the last line of the opposition defence (but i knew this was his game before we signed him so i can't moan).

4) No not often but he definitely has worked the channels (more than Defoe does).

5) I'm reluctant to compare Defoe's cup games to Soldado's league games.

 

[diego_maradona]

Must say I'm surprised to see people writing that Dembele should play ahead of Paulinho. I've not noticed him stalling our attacks, If anything, I've seen him slip some decent balls through to our forwards. The only thing I would accuse him of so far is wasteful finishing. He could have easily scored 6 or 7 goals with the amount of chances he's had but he's getting into those positions which is good. I believe we bought him because he can finally give us goals from midfield. He's only been in the league 2 months and the only thing that's stopped him from racking up a good return of goals is sloppy finishing. Sandro and Paulinho would be my preferred partnership.

Now if you want to talk midfielders who stall attacks, then let's talk about Dembele. It's bad enough he doesn't possess the ability to play a killer final ball, but he doesn't even see it most of the time. I love the way he goes past other players like they are not there and he is strong, but I don't see the need for him AND Sandro unless we're playing tough/er opposition. Just who exactly is going to contribute goals from the midfield if Demeble and Sandro are two of the 5 midfielders? We'd be putting an awful lot of pressure on Soldado who hasn't got off to the best start as it stands.

If we can finally get Kaboul to play more than 2 games without getting injured then I think he has to be the other central defender alongside Vertonghen, to play a high line with two slow CB's like the current two seems daft to put it lightly.

As for Naughton/Ekotto, I've made my feelings clear. Please, please play Vertonghen left back when Rose is not fit and whichever centre halves are fit.

Jurgen completely agree about Vertonghen or even someone like Townsend at left back while Rosé is out. It is imperative to our shape that we maintain our width and make the inverted wingers effective

 

[diego_maradona]

1) I would rather 10 get involved.

2) I think Soldado gets involved more than Defoe.

3) No...he's moved to the flanks a few times and has dropped deep a few times but generally he's on the last line of the opposition defence (but i knew this was his game before we signed him so i can't moan).

4) No not often but he definitely has worked the channels (more than Defoe does).

5) I'm reluctant to compare Defoe's cup games to Soldado's league games.

Would you play Ade ahead of Soldado once he returns to fitness? Forgetting the likelihood of it, just what you would do

 

[africanspurs]

African: Based on that would you expect Defoe to attempt or complete more passes per game than Soldado? (I really don't think he does)

What do you mean by participating in the game, if it's not related to passes?

hold up, engaging the opposition defenders, working wide channels even if you dont have the ball, and not being TOTALLY reliant on everyone else before you look like you are just above any other striker.

defoe always has a goal in him,.....whether its from nothing...or from something. defoe always seems to be right there trailing the ball across the defensive line when we dont have it and it seems that defoe gets more sight at goal than solly does

i just see defoe engaged and there when he plays more than i do with solly

if we had more creativity up there then it would be solly hands down....i think his movement in the final third is better than defoes, but i know for a fact that defoe can play with the team as an active team member even when he isnt offside trying to break the line

having said that...i wouldnt mind seeing the number of passes done by solly in games

 

[billyiddo]

it's funny how people see things in total opposites. everything you level at Soldado there id say Defoe is much worse of an offender. i think he's the one waiting for things to fall to him or any chance to get the ball at his feet and simply turn and shoot. Soldado, imv, works much better at finding space and coming in to play outside of the box (although it's not a particularly strong part of his game, just the better of the two) i think it's just a matter of it all clicking in to place ... for him and the midfielders to find each others wavelengths. i think we, as a club, have been confident enough to spend big on him and that we need to give him time to fit together with his team mates (and his team mates with him)

 

[SteveAWOL]

Debrief: The Premier League weekend reviewed, Oct 6 | FourFourTwo

1) Big Sam's tactical masterclass outfoxes AVB
For Spurs, Sunday's surprisingly heavy defeat to neighbours West Ham was the perfect storm. Their own poor individual performances, tactics and team selection were compounded by the Irons' superb team showing and flawless following of Sam Allardyce's tactical masterplan.
In the first half, the Hammers sat deep and frustrated Spurs, looking to spring counter-attacks when the opportunity arose. Despite this they still created the best chance of the opening 45 minutes, when Kevin Nolan shot wide after Mark Noble ingeniously dinked a free-kick over the Tottenham wall.
They eventually did take the lead through a set-piece, when Winston Reid prodded home at the second attempt, and were able to rub salt into Spurs' wounds a further two times when the game became more stretched as the hosts desperately chased a way back into the tie.
Spurs didn't seem to know how to deal with West Ham's pragmatic approach, appeared ill-prepared for the challenge placed before them, and lacked the patience required to break down a team that regularly put seven or eight players behind the ball.
They also suffered for being slightly lop-sided, with right-footers Kyle Naughton and Gylfi Sigurdsson both playing on the left, cutting inside and making the centre of the pitch more congested. This played right into West Ham's hands.
When Tottenham did manage to get the ball into the opposition area, Jermain Defoe was unable to cause his former club much worry - the England striker lacks the presence and guile of Roberto Soldado. The Spaniard may not have scored against Tromso or Anzhi, but he would at least have been able to help the likes of Christian Eriksen and Gylfi Sigurdsson find openings in the final third.
West Ham were as impressive as Spurs were awful and the scoreline didn't flatter them. The defeat will leave Andre Villas-Boas with plenty to ponder, not least how on earth a team that had previously conceded just twice in 11 matches could ship three goals in 90 minutes to a team without a recognised striker.

Read more at http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...ue-weekend-reviewed-oct-6#kfGBduYyk0AOJRDv.99

 

[braineclipse]

hold up, engaging the opposition defenders, working wide channels even if you dont have the ball, and not being TOTALLY reliant on everyone else before you look like you are just above any other striker.

defoe always has a goal in him,.....whether its from nothing...or from something. defoe always seems to be right there trailing the ball across the defensive line when we dont have it and it seems that defoe gets more sight at goal than solly does

i just see defoe engaged and there when he plays more than i do with solly

if we had more creativity up there then it would be solly hands down....i think his movement in the final third is better than defoes, but i know for a fact that defoe can play with the team as an active team member even when he isnt offside trying to break the line

having said that...i wouldnt mind seeing the number of passes done by solly in games

I've never seen engaging the opposition defenders or working the channels as Defoe's strengths personally. No more (or less) so than Soldado.

Defoe always has a goal in him? I wrote a long ass post in the lack of goals thread partly about Defoe's contributions, I don't fully disagree or agree with you, but I can't be bothered repeating myself or writing another long ass post right now. For me though, both Defoe and Soldado need creativity behind them to perform.

Since you asked:According to whoscored Soldado has averaged 19.3 passes per game in 6 starts and one sub appearance. Today Defoe attempted 15.

 

[mudshark]

A throwback to the bad old days. We utterly underestimated the opposition, thinking all we had to do was turn up and we'd the game won. Sometimes it seems as though it doesn't matter who the manager is, what players they bring in, or anything else, for that matter, and that this is the only constant; that this recurring theme of lazy unprofessionalism is somehow built in to the fabric of the club like a virus.

 

[awesome dawson]

Defoe is going to end his career without ever figuring out the offside rule. Playing him twice in a week made no sense. Why rest Soldado in the EL game?

Dawson is going to finish his career with us, without ever realising that long balls to Defoe who is being marked by guys at least 8 inches taller than him, do not work in terms of retaining possession.

Getting rid of BAE (on loan) was a mistake.

Assume you'll win at home and you run the risk of being humiliated. It'd happened to all the top teams this season, with the exception of Chelsea I think.

 

[Pirate55]

think Paulhino has been marginally the better of the two so far this season so would personally try him and Sandro and see how that pans out.

Lets give the Samba Twins a chance. Dembele has been poor this season in his creativity. He beats a player and then passes backwards thereby negating any advantage he has initially created. Very frustrating.