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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

glasgowspur said:
I've lifted this bit Steff,
Could it be that by sticking with ange in circumstances that the club have helped to create we are sending a message to the next prospective manager.
We've needed a rebuild since our season at Wembley, not everyone is admitting but everybody knows it.
Except for the odd highlight here and there we've been in a slide since then.
That's on the club, as is our transfer policy.
When DL hired ange the message was that that had to stop, we had to return to our DNA and be patient in doing so.
Sacking a manager 18 months into a project isn't being patient, it's not going to encourage the next manager to sign on the line.
Just like nuno I'm not convinced ange was first choice, did we come to the conclusion that actions are going to speak louder than words.
Whoever we brought in had to be seen to be given every chance.
That statement becomes empty words.
If we wait to the end of season and part ways "in mutual agreement" it's a much better optic.
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You have, IMO, nailed it. This is exactly what I think will play out. The only question is whether someone panics before the summer.
 
thfcsteff said:
They have. It's intriguing. I am not sure what that backing actually means though. I am sure we will all find out soon enough.
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I think it means the club knows the situation re the rebuild, this is evidenced by them giving him more leeway/time than they have ever given any manager before - they'd be well within their rights for sacking a manager for having us in this league position at this stage of the season under normal circumstances so there has to be an understanding there of the circumstances otherwise he'd be long gone.

If we lose or limp to a draw v Leicester then like it or not the club is probably gonna have to make the decision as it will really signal that we are in a proper freefall (if we aren't already) with little evidence to suggest Ange is capable of getting us out of it.
 
Muttley said:
Or the praise from fans like me for kicking the narcissist out of my club. My criticism of Levy was not doing it earlier.

Saying that Jose should have stayed for the cup final was always going to be a cheap dig at Levy.
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He sacked him way too late but then having not sacked him earlier he then did it just too early.

It is anything but a cheap dig. It merely proved that Levy values revenue more than trophies when sacking a manager because he was going to rest players for the midweek league game to give the team the best possible chance of winning the cup.
 
billyiddo said:
I think it means the club knows the situation re the rebuild, this is evidenced by them giving him more leeway/time than they have ever given any manager before - they'd be well within their rights for sacking a manager for having us in this league position at this stage of the season under normal circumstances so there has to be an understanding there of the circumstances otherwise he'd be long gone.

If we lose or limp to a draw v Leicester then like it or not the club is probably gonna have to make the decision as it will really signal that we are in a proper freefall (if we aren't already) with little evidence to suggest Ange is capable of getting us out of it.
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Fair comment.
I think it could also be because they recognise some of their mistakes in this process.
I also think that people who comment that the rebuild supercedes the manager, and that essentially, the narture of the rebuild is what it is and whoever comes in should be working with that remit are right. So in that regard, it is increasingly possible -for whatever reasons- that Ange is not the man. Personally, I think their 'support' is actually using him as a placeholder for the next manager this summer. Until then, I think the remit is to do the best he can (as it should be!). But I dont think anyone really believes that he will make it beyond the summer at this point. IF the stuff which Sami Mokbel wrote is true (and he is pretty reliable) then the only question is whether the club tell agitated players to STFU and get on with it until the summer, or sack Ange and bring in the placeholder until May. Never a dull moment...
 
thfcsteff said:
In fairness, the reason I think he is done are as much some of his recent actions as circumstances and so on. The somewhat baffling and ludicrous formation change for that first-half was a worrying sign. @Bedfordspurs called it right for me, it's a sign that he is in tailspin. I look at him, the players around him -especially the seniors- and I really am not convinced he can generate the necessary traction to get us out of where we are. The discussion as to how we got here is (as we're witnessing) getting both fraught and divisive. I think the truth lies somewhere between all our opinions. But for me, this present vortex requires an incredible personality and buy -in from tired players, and honestly, I just don't see where he can pull it from as his tank seems pretty empty.
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Right now, with the players we have actually available I agree with your description.

I think it's perhaps a different story if in a couple of weeks we have Romero, VdV, Solanke, Bentancur fit. Along with Moore getting more minutes, some of the players who already are stepping up (Spence, Bergvall, Gray).

I also think some of those currently failing to generate traction can if they're not running on fumes.

If Ange survives to see those players back, if we get more injuries by then, new signings and how quickly some of those mentioned are back and firing are unknowns at this point. Again, think he needs a fair bit of luck to get through this.
 
billyiddo said:
I think it means the club knows the situation re the rebuild, this is evidenced by them giving him more leeway/time than they have ever given any manager before - they'd be well within their rights for sacking a manager for having us in this league position at this stage of the season under normal circumstances so there has to be an understanding there of the circumstances otherwise he'd be long gone.

If we lose or limp to a draw v Leicester then like it or not the club is probably gonna have to make the decision as it will really signal that we are in a proper freefall (if we aren't already) with little evidence to suggest Ange is capable of getting us out of it.
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Agreed. If not Leicester, then pretty soon after that. The freefall has to stop.
 
afsoc4life said:
Players complaining about demands of training? Let me keep my comments to myself. Is it the training that is leading those certain players to displaying crap on the pitch? I hope Ange is able to identify these players and move them on.
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They have the right to be concerned given the state on the squad injury wise

If true it's not like we have a squad of trouble makers is it?
 
thfcsteff said:
Either that or he'll wring him dry and stumble to a bottom half finish, and when he sacks him, say they did all they could to let him work through it. Levy's in a relative win win right now; if Ange turns it around, Daniel stuck by him. If Ange largely fails, Daniel gave him every chance. I am not saying he planned it this way, however the cards have fallen that way..:
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There is a huge downside for Levy.

Currently we're not in a relegation battle. But we're at the wrong end of the table and sliding quickly in the wrong direction.

Sticking with the manager until the summer increases that risk.
 
In all honesty this would be the first time i would back the players with complaints you only have to look at the injuries throughout this season and last season to see they are being overworked.
 
Bishop said:
I hear you on the argument that our players are not necessarily better I would counter and say you don't always have to have the better players to get a result. Whereas with Ange it seems like he has to have the better players and a 100% fully fit and functioning squad to get a result.

We didn't even draw, we got pummeled, so yes the squad quality is an issue but Ange isn't hitting par with his performances. He's several strokes over par.
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It's called managing I believe.
 
afsoc4life said:
Players complaining about demands of training? Let me keep my comments to myself. Is it the training that is leading those certain players to displaying crap on the pitch? I hope Ange is able to identify these players and move them on.
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The ones he's flogging when the sports scientists are recommending they need a rehab day?

Anyone now still think Gerry Francis' Terror Tuesdays were a good idea? It's just so character building to make the squad run until the first one pukes!
 
thfcsteff said:
Either that or he'll wring him dry and stumble to a bottom half finish, and when he sacks him, say they did all they could to let him work through it. Levy's in a relative win win right now; if Ange turns it around, Daniel stuck by him. If Ange largely fails, Daniel gave him every chance. I am not saying he planned it this way, however the cards have fallen that way..:
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Your last sentence is key. I see a lot of people online who are anti Levy making out that he’s some sort of Machiavellian conniver who:

1. Is waiting for the window to close until he sacks Ange so he doesn’t have to spend anything
2. Is keeping Ange in a job to make himself look more patient
3. Is an idiot for not firing Ange and being unfair because he sacked other managers for less

And so on and so on.

Fact here for me, whether I agree with Levy on keeping Ange or not (I don’t), he is trying to give the fella a fair crack of the whip and he is trying to change his approach to coaches because firing every 18 months hasn’t worked. Why do some people always assume the worst?

FWIW, Levy has always been described by anyone who has dealt with him as hard but very straight and very fair. His previous managers, even including Poch to a degree, haven’t been. I think he appreciates Ange and his straightforward manner and is desperate for it to work.
 
In spite of all the rubbish we’ve had to endure this season, I still would prefer he stays and fixes it but unfortunately I don’t think he has it in him. I know all football managers are cantankerous bastards after a defeat, but he is just bloody rude in interviews in response to perfectly polite interviewers and more than reasonable line of questioning. There’s just no need for it. You can accept it to a degree if you’re successful but when your club is bringing up the rear in 15th place, it’s not a good look.
 
thfcsteff said:
No, you're right, but Munn would've hired Lange no? And Lange is the one who was integral to the transfer work we did in the summer, both outs and ins? And anything we have been trying to do now? I think it would be fair to question both, however the truth is Munn is going nowhere (and probably shouldn't). Same with Lange. If we're going to see if this system works, then we at least need recruitment continuity, and I suppose we have to give Lange credit for Gray, Bergvall, and Kinsky.
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You can't judge Lange without knowing the goals he was set for the transfer window. Was it to go and get the top young talent in order to have a squad that can have us in the top 4 and challenging for trophies in 3-4 years? If it was then on the face of it he has done a good job but will need more time to see how good it was.
If it's to get players for now, then no, not such a good window.
For Munn you can't judge his position after 6 months (internally they'll obviously have a better picture). His role is more long term and putting the right structures/people in place, not what goes on game to game.
 
Legohamster said:
They have the right to be concerned given the state on the squad injury wise

If true it's not like we have a squad of trouble makers is it?
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So here is what I believe will be happening based on what I've read elsewhere. The medical and fitness department started being restructured about 18 months ago and has continued with even more open requisitions being opened recently. It's a continual process but the current team are worried about their own reputations based on the current injury list. The departmental restructuring has nothing to do with the current injury crisis, but fingers are being pointed there. Therefore, if there is a leak then my guess is that the medical team are finally speaking up for their corner and making sure their truth gets out into the public domain. It's probably not Ange squad.

Additionally, it's only been recently that Ange has brought training down to something less intense (Ali Gold). Ange has started to introduce more rest days after matches and has put a higher emphasis on their recuperation over the next intense training session.

Player welfare is a big topic nowadays and you can almost see sections of books written about Spurs 24/25 season on how not to manage a squad. I just hope there will eventually be hard rules around it. Just take Porro. There should be medical diagnostics available in the future where a manager like Ange will simply not even be able to select him until those diagnostics inform the medical team that he is fit for purpose.

Any way you look at this scenario, it doesn't look good on the club and especially Ange.
 
DubSpur said:
You can't judge Lange without knowing the goals he was set for the transfer window. Was it to go and get the top young talent in order to have a squad that can have us in the top 4 and challenging for trophies in 3-4 years? If it was then on the face of it he has done a good job but will need more time to see how good it was.
If it's to get players for now, then no, not such a good window.
For Munn you can't judge his position after 6 months (internally they'll obviously have a better picture). His role is more long term and putting the right structures/people in place, not what goes on game to game.
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Absolutely. Lange didn't pick up a mess either. The good work started in about 2022 when Paratici rode in. He just gets to carry forward the project in a world where he gets a very good budget. I think the Lange data science model coupled with Paratici's judgment could be amazing if we're lucky enough to keep both active for the shared goal.
 
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