Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[glasgowspur]

Plus Bentancur, Romero, Solanke, Werner etc

When the defensive shape seems completely bonkers it effects everyone eventually.

Son is on a downward curve due to age. He's trying but the body doesn't lie (he's put in the hard yards for years and like Kane before him there's only so much the body will allow you to do afetr a given point. Smart use of ageing players would mitigate somewhat).
Maddison is flaky i agree. However, he and many of the others have probably seen much more understandable tactics that make sense AND show results. The longer many of these players have played under Ange the worse they have gotten, ditto our results.
How long before Solanke looks really crap after running around endlessly and getting little reward/service? He's 27 and cannot do that for much longer...

I wouldn't count werner as he's not really our player and solanke is really just in the door.

Unfortunately it's true about son, we've a habit of letting players like him down. We really should have handled him better.
Maddison is frustrating, the talent is there just not able to show it enough. You think everything is in place for him to thrive, just isn't happening. The injuries around him aren't helping.
Being honest I think Romero is overrated on here, he's good but I don't see what a lot others see. Maybe that's just me though.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I wouldn't count werner as he's not really our player and solanke is really just in the door.

Unfortunately it's true about son, we've a habit of letting players like him down. We really should have handled him better.
Maddison is frustrating, the talent is there just not able to show it enough. You think everything is in place for him to thrive, just isn't happening. The injuries around him aren't helping.
Being honest I think Romero is overrated on here, he's good but I don't see what a lot others see. Maybe that's just me though.

When the numbers of senior players who are underperforming keeps growing you then have to question the system and coach who is asking them to play such.

Remmeber how good the likes of Son, Maddison, Romero, Bissouma, Udogie etc were under Ange initially?
Well, who knows how much of a dip Solanke will eventually go through the longer he plays under him?

The pattern for over a year now are pointing the fingers in one direction, sadly..

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No coach is going to criticise a current manager's methods. Most pundit's opinions carry weight because they've generally played at that level. They really know what's what.

I'm not saying Ange is right or wrong - that's just an opinion. But people's opinions are split on Ange. It's only natural that some of the players will be thinking the same way.

I read a piece on Lloris' book and he very much drove at "Levy didn't have the mentality for winning in sport" and "We just stopped listening to Conte after a while". They are opinions I naively sometimes don't think a player will have but Lloris did and you can bet some of the other players did too. As did fans and pundits. They're only human...some of them will be wondering about Ange.

Yep
Thats natural
But Lloris is another example
A work cup winning captain who actually failed miserably in the final
Shame he didn’t make any comments publicly at the time then
I actually respect the pundits that actually dissect things and add value
Last night we had Rio .. who spoke like he was on AFTV and McMoist.. who used to make so much sense but now talks in a garbled mess
They add nothing but noise
Now when you see MOTD2 you get a very very different perspective. They dissect things and add context
Hence why a pundit is a pundit and a coach is a coach
One is paid to make noise and the other is paid to manage a football team

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I've seen Pardew question him. I know it's Pardew but he has a decade or so managing in the league and with a bit of relative success. Keane has driven at it too on the "Stick to Football" podcast by having a go at "managers who blindly stick to a philosophy especially when they don't have the players".

You listen to interviews, like Rice last night, and he spoke about how they targetted us.

People within the game are questioning Ange's methods. Doesn't make them right or wrong. They're just opinions but our players will likely have similar opinions.

And there the players we have to ship out
Was so interesting to see Romero back Ange

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think an issue with the system is our natural instinct to protect things. Yeah it's all well playing it to the keeper then he knocks it into your feet with three men on you and your back to goal in training etc. In a real match when it leads to a chance, or your Bissouma and it leads to a goal, you're naturally gonna not want to do it time after time after time.

You actually need to have that Cole Palmer low intellect to not be affected by what years of coaching is telling you is wrong and also your own instincts. His game plan goes against common sense at times which is why 1000's of people are in Park Lane are screaming to get the ball up the pitch. Too ask players to continually do something that is not working/works once or twice a game is a tough sell. As results get worse it's an even tougher sell. Add to that fact is that unless forced we play exaclty the same way every game. So not only is it not working, the opposition can predict what you're going to do before the ball has even reached you. Very tough.

This is a very good post. Rio Ferdinand was raging at us last night for not just getting the ball up the pitch. Playing out has a place in the game but not to the extent we were doing it last night especially with the pressure we were under. The ball from Kinsky to Spence was beyond brainless. The ball back to Kinsky that he dealt well with and flicked back out to left back was stupid. The first half when Son, Spence and Gray tinkled about in our corner was also lacking common sense. You can't make those sorts of decisions game after game and get away with them.

 

[harr1984]

I wouldn't count werner as he's not really our player and solanke is really just in the door.

Unfortunately it's true about son, we've a habit of letting players like him down. We really should have handled him better.
Maddison is frustrating, the talent is there just not able to show it enough. You think everything is in place for him to thrive, just isn't happening. The injuries around him aren't helping.
Being honest I think Romero is overrated on here, he's good but I don't see what a lot others see. Maybe that's just me though.

I'm with you on Romero - he can have a great game, but is not the top class CB some like to portray in my eyes. He is decent on the ball, but the only consistent thing about him is how rash he can be. And he has been this way since he arrived, you can't just try and argue it's Ange's system that is the problem. You look at a true top class CB like Van Dijk, he is a rock week in week out. Romero can put in that type of performance, and then will back it up with a 5/10 performance - he suffers from the same lack of consistency many of our players do which is why he along with others are over rated by our fans. A lot of our players can put in a top performance, but don't do it consistently enough to be at the level some fans perceive them to be at....

 

[Mikey10]

But pundits and fans are generally… not the experts
It’s why they are what they are
I’ve not yet seen, from memory , another coach question the methods

A couple (including Gary O'Neill when he was at Wolves) have said that they knew exactly how we were going to play. Not a criticism per se, but not a ringing endorsement either.

 

[billyiddo]

When do other coaches ever criticise the methods of one of their counterparts??

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A couple (including Gary O'Neill when he was at Wolves) have said that they knew exactly how we were going to play. Not a criticism per se, but not a ringing endorsement either.

I’d be worried if a manager didn’t know how the opposition manager didn’t know
I can say as a fan how every team will try to play in this league
That part is predictable

 

[Bedfordspurs]

When do other coaches ever criticise the methods of one of their counterparts??

Pass
So we’re left with failed coaches and ex players as the be all and end all

 

[Mcfee]

I wouldn't count werner as he's not really our player and solanke is really just in the door.

Unfortunately it's true about son, we've a habit of letting players like him down. We really should have handled him better.
Maddison is frustrating, the talent is there just not able to show it enough. You think everything is in place for him to thrive, just isn't happening. The injuries around him aren't helping.
Being honest I think Romero is overrated on here, he's good but I don't see what a lot others see. Maybe that's just me though.

To me it feels like Romero has hardly played in the past 2 years (though the stats will no doubt prove me wrong) and has been only semi engaged with us since the lead-up to the 2022 World Cup. Overall I’m disappointed with him given the hype when he signed. I’m not sure we’re going to get much more from him.

 

[Grays_1890]

A couple (including Gary O'Neill when he was at Wolves) have said that they knew exactly how we were going to play. Not a criticism per se, but not a ringing endorsement either.

Yep and usually the oppo say about other clubs "ohh we knew they would make it hard" for us its often "we know they will leave gaps and give us chances" thats not the traditional ringing endorsement or mutual respect you usually get

 

[glasgowspur]

Thank you for spelling out clearly what i tried to wrt to the senior players drop-off vs the youngsters. See post above @glasgowspur which i think aligns with what i posted to you

I understand the points of view and in some cases I agree.
Now it's not happened yet after the NLD but over the festive period and results were not going our way there were a lot of get so-so in, he'll immediately make us better.
Play with wingers, it's obvious.
Play the kids, they can't be worse.
These are all opinions, nobody has any idea if they will help, it's the presenting it as "fact" and it being as simple as that.
There is nothing in our recent history to suggest that it is as simple as that.
We all want what's best for the club and we all have different ideas as to what that is and how best to achieve it.
I don't say anything I post is correct, it's only my opinion, and I don't say that anyone else is wrong, it's there opinion, that is all anything on these boards are, opinions.
By all means bring another manager, I'm not wedded to Angeball, but I think a lot of people will be disappointed in the outcome.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I understand the points of view and in some cases I agree.
Now it's not happened yet after the NLD but over the festive period and results were not going our way there were a lot of get so-so in, he'll immediately make us better.
Play with wingers, it's obvious.
Play the kids, they can't be worse.
These are all opinions, nobody has any idea if they will help, it's the presenting it as "fact" and it being as simple as that.
There is nothing in our recent history to suggest that it is as simple as that.
We all want what's best for the club and we all have different ideas as to what that is and how best to achieve it.
I don't say anything I post is correct, it's only my opinion, and I don't say that anyone else is wrong, it's there opinion, that is all anything on these boards are, opinions.
By all means bring another manager, I'm not wedded to Angeball, but I think a lot of people will be disappointed in the outcome.

Long-term, whilst we are under the same ownership model, i agree

 

[glorygloryeze]

Pass
So we’re left with failed coaches and ex players as the be all and end all

Pass??

It was YOU who wrote here about coaches criticising other coaches!!

Unless, of course it was another of your misspellings?

 

[glasgowspur]

When the numbers of senior players who are underperforming keeps growing you then have to question the system and coach who is asking them to play such.

Remmeber how good the likes of Son, Maddison, Romero, Bissouma, Udogie etc were under Ange initially?
Well, who knows how much of a dip Solanke will eventually go through the longer he plays under him?

The pattern for over a year now are pointing the fingers in one direction, sadly..

Son it's an age thing, other than appointing him captain I can't see what ange has done wrong there.
Romero is someone who gets better the longer he is out. I personally don't he is as good as either Jan or Toby were at that age.
Was not sold on maddison either as a player or a leader.
Bissouma, like maddison, started like a demon, he was amazing but he has regressed from that form.
Udogie is an odd one for me, be interesting to see how he develops, he is still quite young.

Ultimately the manager will carry the can if he can't sort it out, that's football. As long as we those son, maddison, Bissouma and Romero I'm not sure anything is going to change regardless of the manager.

 

[Bishop]

I think it’s a really good article
Arsenal missing chances is about how and who they play as much as anything
They still don’t have a. Striker and that’s their choice so they play a midfielder in attack

For us, it’s fine margin results but they have to be turned into something. I posted it last night, we haven’t had a player step up and do that big extra in any of those games. We had that in the past with Kane, son and dele but they aren’t here anymore

We now have a team of average to poor players. We have no world class talents like we had with Kane or the earlier period with Eriksen.

They are average players being instructed to play highest of fine precision football and well it obviously doesn't work.

 

[glasgowspur]

Long-term, whilst we are under the same ownership model, i agree

In the heat of the moment I think that's what we all forget, our owners set the ceiling.
Now I'm not anti DL or ENIC, I'm content with our place in the food chain. It is what it is.
The owners of city or Saudi Sportswashing Machine could buy ENIC out, pay off all debt, pay off the staff and players close the stadium and turn it an events venue, close the training ground and use it as a spa or "wellness Centre" and not blink at the cost.
Their wealth is staggering, we cannot compete with that.

 

[Muttley]

I think an issue with the system is our natural instinct to protect things. Yeah it's all well playing it to the keeper then he knocks it into your feet with three men on you and your back to goal in training etc. In a real match when it leads to a chance, or your Bissouma and it leads to a goal, you're naturally gonna not want to do it time after time after time.

You actually need to have that Cole Palmer low intellect to not be affected by what years of coaching is telling you is wrong and also your own instincts. His game plan goes against common sense at times which is why 1000's of people are in Park Lane are screaming to get the ball up the pitch. Too ask players to continually do something that is not working/works once or twice a game is a tough sell. As results get worse it's an even tougher sell. Add to that fact is that unless forced we play exaclty the same way every game. So not only is it not working, the opposition can predict what you're going to do before the ball has even reached you. Very tough.

It's a great post and articulates what I'm feeling with Ange. There is a directness about Pep and Slot that Ange hasn't adopted. That makes him wholly predictable. When Ange first joined, I said his teams were trying to play 5-a-side football from our goal to theirs. I said that the system was perhaps too idealistic in a league where even Pep has learnt the value of mixing it up and playing direct at times. That is with a very expensively assembled squad where everyone is comfortable on the ball.

Now we now see new narratives appearing e.g. the entire system breaks because Dragusin isn't a good enough ball player OR the other players don't pass to Dragusin anymore. For me, it's always about the players, the injuries, the fatigue, the average age etc. A different narrative every week.

It's actually becoming ABA - Anything But Ange.

I do understand that Ange has goodwill with us because he is genuinely a great guy and wants to play front foot, progressive football. We all want him to succeed but there comes a time when he needs to use every chapter in that manager's playbook. There comes a time where he needs to be held to account if he is not. I'm suggesting that time is now coming to a head in these next 3-4 months.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's a great post and articulates what I'm feeling with Ange. There is a directness about Pep and Slot that Ange hasn't adopted. That makes him wholly predictable. When Ange first joined, I said his teams were trying to play 5-a-side football from our goal to theirs. I said that the system was perhaps too idealistic in a league where even Pep has learnt the value of mixing it up and playing direct at times. That is with a very expensively assembled squad where everyone is comfortable on the ball.

Now we now see new narratives appearing e.g. the entire system breaks because Dragusin isn't a good enough ball player OR the other players don't pass to Dragusin anymore. For me, it's always about the players, the injuries, the fatigue, the average age etc. A different narrative every week.

It's actually becoming ABA - Anything But Ange.

I do understand that Ange has goodwill with us because he is genuinely a great guy and wants to play front foot, progressive football. We all want him to succeed but there comes a time when he needs to use every chapter in that manager's playbook. There comes a time where he needs to be held to account if he is not. I'm suggesting that time is now coming to a head in these next 3-4 months.

ABA is so true...