Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[braineclipse]

Getting back to the conversations Scott Munn will be having....I suspect he will ask what Ange needs to be more successful. Part of that is players, part of that is the coaching team and methodology. How much time does Ange - or his coaches - allocate to training at taking corners? Does he need more - or better - coaches? It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall during those meetings - I don't expect either side would hold back.

I think the main thing he needs is time. But then also some new players.

I get that people look at results in the last year and see little progress. For sure there have been quite a few disappointing and frustrating games and results.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm not sure I would agree we got basically nothing outside a corner.

We had 17 shots to their 8. 5 shots on target to their 3. We had Johnson through on goal from a cross early, Solanke through on goal late on (though narrow angle), the chest down and finish from Solanke, the hand ball goal from Solanke (another corner though), Werner's shot over the bar after a good move (Werner though so doesn't count), also several decent long shot opportunities (somewhat uncharacteristically this season several of them from Son).

That's not to say we were good enough. Imo it was a fairly close game that we lost as they took their chances and we didn't. That's not good enough at home to Ipswich. That's also what happens when you drop 10% in quality and intensity even against a relegation candidate.

All the little things that fell for us in Ange's first 10 games are falling against us.
Other than the palace game which I didn’t see, we could have got at least a point out of all these defeats.

 

[SkipRat]

All the little things that fell for us in Ange's first 10 games are falling against us.
Other than the palace game which I didn’t see, we could have got at least a point out of all these defeats.

But the truth is, even in the first 10 games, the same problems were there.

Not enough from wings, relying on moments. Yes we dominated possession, but apart from Burnley in those first 10 games, we really didn't open teams up, Richy was getting almost no service, until Johnson start playing and providing from the right... Until Richy got injured again.

 

[Mikey10]

Exactly, any manager history can be spun, bipolar Spurs, including me at time hands up, we don't know what we want and don't have the patience to find out.

I said it before I am bored of it all now, I can't take another reinvention at Spurs only to have the same conversation in two years

We're trapped in Groundhog Day until the club changes. Another change in manager probably won't achieve much, to be honest. A change at a higher level is required, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just refusing to get too upset by results...and spending a lot less money through going to a lot fewer matches than I used to.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We're trapped in Groundhog Day until the club changes. Another change in manager probably won't achieve much, to be honest. A change at a higher level is required, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just refusing to get too upset by results...and spending a lot less money through going to a lot fewer matches than I used to.

Which is your perogative
I’ll do that eventually
I’m finding the premier league draining now with the skewed money

 

[SkipRat]

We're trapped in Groundhog Day until the club changes. Another change in manager probably won't achieve much, to be honest. A change at a higher level is required, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just refusing to get too upset by results...and spending a lot less money through going to a lot fewer matches than I used to.

There has only been one common factor throughout our years of drought.

Levy

 

[Muttley]

Getting back to the conversations Scott Munn will be having....I suspect he will ask what Ange needs to be more successful. Part of that is players, part of that is the coaching team and methodology. How much time does Ange - or his coaches - allocate to training at taking corners? Does he need more - or better - coaches? It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall during those meetings - I don't expect either side would hold back.

It's actually quite tough knowing so little about Munn. After 25years we know that Levy is in no way capable of having those football operations conversations. On the other hand, we all knew Paratici is more than capable. I genuinely hope that Munn is more of a Paratici than a Levy.

Perhaps the football analyst team can unearth a few things that can support a Munn-Ange conversation. Just the topic you talk about would be an interesting one. The analysts could easily look at how every PL team sets up for corners and find out what's working and what's not. My guess is that the analysts have already given Ange and Matt Wells some intelligence, and to be fair the trend is in a good direction. What we have seen with Ange though that sometimes it takes him too long to make changes. Just putting a Spurs player in the 6-yard box with Venom last season took about 6 months of the season. The fans were calling it straight away. Then it became a crisis, and in the last 6 weeks of the season is the first time we saw change. That cycle was way too long and Ange was accountable for us having relegation stats on corners over a season, not just the players.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think he was backed this summer and last summer.

Was it Levy insisting that we spend a rather significant portion of our transfer budget on teenagers? Or was that a footballing decision?

If it was Levy overruling Munn, Lange and Ange I could see an argument for saying that he wasn't backed. I don't think that was the case.

But when you back a manager focusing heavily on younger players imo part of that backing should be allowing for time to develop the squad over a bit of time, unless it goes horribly wrong in some way. Particularly when combined with being back in Europe. We obviously don't know what Levy, Munn and Lange think about that, we probably won't know unless they end up firing him.

And I still hold hope that some of our teenagers will have a bigger and better impact on the team in the second half of the season than the first.

Agreed. We're also asking an awful lot of Son (just back from injury too), Solanke and Johnson.

The injuries to Werner, Richarlison and Odobert have imo been just as impactful as the injury to Spence (and the lack of rotation from Dragusin's red and VdV's injury).

This is first season back in Europe syndrome. The players have to learn and adjust. That takes time. And some of the younger players will have to step up. That also takes time.

I think he was backed to an extent this summer.
I think 'the project' was backed wholly.
Daniel has always liked a punt on sparkling, talented teenagers, and it is clear Munn and Lange have a direction of traffic for us.
I like the direction, I like what we're doing on the pitch, and I like Ange.
For it all to work/be given a real chance to work, I think we're in total agreement that he needs time. I think he needs this season AND next whatever is happening (unless of course we look like being relegated!).
What we have to hope is that Munn and Lange really ARE running things; I remain sceptical that they have total control. I am going on assumption and previous history when I say I believe Daniel is still there and thereabouts. He signs the checks. And it cannot have escaped people that the signings we HAVE brought in are not the highest wage earners around (not a bad thing at all, you don't want THAT reputation). But when you need to make a signing which might require an extra bump in wages, you need to. And I just hope that when Ange is presented the shortlist of targets for a position, he is not always getting 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. I happily (and I mean happily!) concede that Solanke looks to have been a number one choice...

...anyway, just to sum up, Ange needs this season and next given the way we work as a club. I hope no-one above gets trigger-finger if things get twitchier.

 

[Jurgen the German]

When we are competent we look good and no one comments
Today we were shocking
I have always said judge after the first 10 games
Before today it was wow..win and we can go third
Is that wrong?
Weirdly despite a result like today we are still in the same boat 3 points would put us third (of course results will happen on t(e mean time and we okay city)
Seems to be a season where no teams are consistent other than pool
We have seen it before and that was the year Lestah win the league
But back on the subject if defending I think we need a leader in there. I dont see in the current first choice 4. Wh8 is VVD or Terry or Matic? None of our crop.
I do believe we need time. No matter who is in charge the sawed needs investment and experience.
People don’t like it and some don’t agree but Poch needed time here with a lot of players well bedded in before hand
Arteta .. time
Klopp…. Time
Unless you have bottomless pits of money to get rid of players you buy like Pep did… you do need time
Ange has said he cant fix it all in a few windows and was also pushed in the same presser I think about winning something second season

Having a leader would help but it’s more that the players aren’t good enough. Not enough guile in the creative positions. People look at the amount of goals we score and think it means our forwards and midfielders are good enough, it’s because we overload the final third with players rather than brilliant play.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Having a leader would help but it’s more that the players aren’t good enough. Not enough guile in the creative positions. People look at the amount of goals we score and think it means our forwards and midfielders are good enough, it’s because we overload the final third with players rather than brilliant play.

We don’t always overload
We are more conservative now
We create a lot of chances and counter attack really well, which is we’re a lot of the additional goals come from
We can also pass well sometimes which is why we get quick goals (city last week was a great example)
We have a real Achilles heel defending crosses particularly left to right

 

[Jurgen the German]

We don’t always overload
We are more conservative now
We create a lot of chances and counter attack really well, which is we’re a lot of the additional goals come from
We can also pass well sometimes which is why we get quick goals (city last week was a great example)
We have a real Achilles heel defending crosses particularly left to right

We are still very much an attacking team that doesn’t pay much attention to defending. I think people are dreaming if they think our forwards are good enough for where we want to be.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We are still very much an attacking team that doesn’t pay much attention to defending. I think people are dreaming if they think our forwards are good enough for where we want to be.

I’m less worried about the attacker who sometimes get the basics right
I’m really worried about the defending of basic crosses
I’ve seen youth teams deal with crosses better than some of our defenders

 

[thfcsteff]

We don’t always overload
We are more conservative now
We create a lot of chances and counter attack really well, which is we’re a lot of the additional goals come from
We can also pass well sometimes which is why we get quick goals (city last week was a great example)
We have a real Achilles heel defending crosses particularly left to right

This to me is a massive point. WHY can we not do BASIC things consistently, like pass well, control properly. Is that fatigue? Perhaps, but I think we'd all agree these are basics which any professional -tired or not- should be executing. And it is costing us for sure...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This to me is a massive point. WHY can we not do BASIC things consistently, like pass well, control properly. Is that fatigue? Perhaps, but I think we'd all agree these are basics which any professional -tired or not- should be executing. And it is costing us for sure...

We play against teams set up in varying ways every week
We don’t play the same set up twice
And as I pointed out earlier our unexpected defeats have coincided with games straight after European ones
Maybe the coaches of those teams have spent the weeks highlighting how we play
I would be doing that for sure
And maybe that means cutting out passing lanes
We have an issue in the quality of how we pass (weight and control)
And we also have players whose first touch isn’t great compared to their other skill set (Sonny regularly bounces balls off him, richralison does too, Johnson too for example)
Our best passes is out right back followed by Romero and then Bentacur IMO
Nothing further up

 

[thfcsteff]

We are still very much an attacking team that doesn’t pay much attention to defending. I think people are dreaming if they think our forwards are good enough for where we want to be.

Werner is clearly no more than 'an option' and not one which will help us. Brennan could do with some stiff competition. Maddison is easing himself out of the club it feels like. Deki needs some good competition. With Richy injured, Dom needs competition/we need a second striker (J Pedro at Brighton would be excellent IMO), as I think Wil Lankshear WILL be outstanding but needs the extra year or two. Our first 11 is strong, but I believe it is a squad game on match days, and given that we like to overpower opponents late, we need the same quality coming into games.

As for defence, for all the great things Romero brings as a footballer, he has to do better and lead. He is the World Cup winner, he is the Copa America winner, and he is the vice-skipper and well loved within the dressing room. His performances in that regard have not been good enough. Ange cannot do anything about that IMO.

I remember when Liverpool signed Van Dijk. I thought he was royally overrated (I remember when we beat Soton 4-1 away at Xmas 2016 and he was a lumberer)...I look back and laugh at my own ignorance, because he took on the challenge and has been (frankly) a generational CB. We got close with Toby and Jan, and the thing is, this club has always had great CBs despite the flair. Romero should be that for us.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Werner is clearly no more than 'an option' and not one which will help us. Brennan could do with some stiff competition. Maddison is easing himself out of the club it feels like. Deki needs some good competition. With Richy injured, Dom needs competition/we need a second striker (J Pedro at Brighton would be excellent IMO), as I think Wil Lankshear WILL be outstanding but needs the extra year or two. Our first 11 is strong, but I believe it is a squad game on match days, and given that we like to overpower opponents late, we need the same quality coming into games.

As for defence, for all the great things Romero brings as a footballer, he has to do better and lead. He is the World Cup winner, he is the Copa America winner, and he is the vice-skipper and well loved within the dressing room. His performances in that regard have not been good enough. Ange cannot do anything about that IMO.

I remember when Liverpool signed Van Dijk. I thought he was royally overrated (I remember when we beat Soton 4-1 away at Xmas 2016 and he was a lumberer)...I look back and laugh at my own ignorance, because he took on the challenge and has been (frankly) a generational CB. We got close with Toby and Jan, and the thing is, this club has always had great CBs despite the flair. Romero should be that for us.

The difference with VVD is he leads that defence
He commands the area too
He wins the crosses and deals with the issue which arise
He wasn’t worth the £75m but he has proven to be great value
Said it a lot recently… imagine an Eze as an option in that 10 role. A guy who creates and the balls sticks too
The pressure he would take off us would be immense.
I’d like Lankshear to be given the second striker spot unless we sell Richy and bring in another versatile player like Jonathan David
My worry is I can see the youth players who can fill these gaps but they are 18/24 months away from being ready
Buying expensive options could hinder them
Doesn’t mean that’s wrong but also not necessarily the right answer

 

[Kompakted]

The thing is, our players are good enough. They're not probably title contending good, but they're more than enough to be right up there. You also don't make Aston Villa look like total amateurs at home with average players just having a good day. Yes, everyone can beat everyone on their day in this league, but there's a difference between sneaking a goal and holding on against a Villa and going a goal behind and then handing them a footballing lesson. The thing is, if we are not on it, we lose. We are totally incapable of grinding out a result when we are not firing. Worse than that, we also sometimes fail to seal the deal in games we are dominating. Brighton match is a case in point. I am not sure Ange has the pragmatism in him to change his mentality to adjust for the realities of the PL.

He kind of reminds me a bit of Wenger's last days at Arsenal where the PL had moved on from when he first came and he was just trying to play this purist football every game no matter what the situation was and they were less and less consistent.

if we are saying Ange needs time. Every manager only deserves time if there are signs of progress, on and off the pitch. I haven't really seen any this season.

We look an attacking threat but we did from day dot with him. We look wide open and liable to concede most games too. How many clean sheets have we had under him? You can't go through a season conceding most games and expecting a high points tally and league finish, I'm sorry.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just seen that there is a pile of clubs with only five wins… thought it was just us the way we reacted (that’s all teams from 3rd to 11th)

So actually the difference this season seems to be the inability to grind out more draws or ideally not concede another goal form a cross that costs us

Maybe its our youth and inexperience

 

[SpiderSpurs]

I'm starting to suspect that there isn't 100% buy-in from some of the players.

It's totally obvious that Maddison, Romero and even Son don't really like this 'who we are gonads'.

 

[Bishop]

Fine margins are inherent to any style of play imo.

I think part of the valid criticism last season was that we conceded too much. This season we're seemingly conceding less.

Liverpool are the outlier this season. Other than them we're in the same ballpark or equal to the teams we want to be competing with.

The margins are smaller with this style of football because it requires more expertise, more precision, more finesse to do it successfully. If you remember the term percentage football ie. The goofball it was called that because it doesn't live on a knife edge any semi competent footballer can hoof a ball forwards in the general direction of goal. Playing for knock-downs and physical contact is absolutely an easier brand of football to play which is why teams lower lower down the league often resort to it or even teams at the top when they are desperate for a goal, they'll throw a CB on to try and win headers to force the matter.

Pretty triangle intricate passing football is much more difficult to achieve and absolutely requires a higher standard of technical ability and finesse to perform it. It is absolutely the football style with the narrowest of margins and that's why I mentioned Barca who were fantastic but I watched many, many, many games were the pass was a little bit to strong, or the run slightly mistimed and that was a team that conquered all.

To play this way and succeed is going need buy in from the players, but fundamentally better players and better coaching than what we are seeing on the pitch.