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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

Bedfordspurs said:
And doing something may have lead to nothing too, especially with the effort having dropped
We don’t know
Abs now we will have lots of speculation because of this fudging international break
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To dare is to do.

We did nothing and reaped the rewards. I would rather attempt to fix than do nothing at all.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
Another part of the problem is that the players have to be willing to learn that mentality. Regardless of his philosophy, Mourinho (and Conte but I think the problem was slightly different with him) had it. When he was sacked, Kane clearly implied that some players at the club were unable to adapt to his demands. That's how I read his comments anyway.
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Kane was always passive aggressive in his interviews. The biggest culprit of mentality was Kane himself. He just quit on multiple managers in those moments where the lungs had to hurt and you had to dig deep. He thought he could bluff it out by scoring goals and then pretend he was going for headers and putting in a shift. He then did his passive aggressive interviews and most of the world fell for the con artist.

Harry had the most talent, but weakest mentality in that changing room.
 
Muttley said:
Kane was always passive aggressive in his interviews. The biggest culprit of mentality was Kane himself. He just quit on multiple managers in those moments where the lungs had to hurt and you had to dig deep. He thought he could bluff it out by scoring goals and then pretend he was going for headers and putting in a shift. He then did his passive aggressive interviews and most of the world fell for the con artist.

Harry had the most talent, but weakest mentality in that changing room.
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Sorry, that's rubbish. He might not be able to get around like he did when he's younger but he never checked out on any manager. 90% of games he was the best player on the pitch, with some games he was our best attacker, creator and defender. If everyone in our squads had his mentality and worked like he did to improve himself we would've won multiple trophies in his time here.
 
Muttley said:
Kane was always passive aggressive in his interviews. The biggest culprit of mentality was Kane himself. He just quit on multiple managers in those moments where the lungs had to hurt and you had to dig deep. He thought he could bluff it out by scoring goals and then pretend he was going for headers and putting in a shift. He then did his passive aggressive interviews and most of the world fell for the con artist.

Harry had the most talent, but weakest mentality in that changing room.
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I'd say it was closer to the opposite, as a youngster he never had the most ability but constantly worked damn hard to be one of the worlds best and a lot of that is down to mentality. How on earth you could possibly conclude of any player having the weakest mentality in the changing room I struggle to understand, but to pick out Kane as being that person I find even more odd.....
 
DubSpur said:
Sorry, that's rubbish. He might not be able to get around like he did when he's younger but he never checked out on any manager. 90% of games he was the best player on the pitch, with some games he was our best attacker, creator and defender. If everyone in our squads had his mentality and worked like he did to improve himself we would've won multiple trophies in his time here.
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According to The Athletic, Kane was one of only two players still supporting Jose at the end.

I find @Muttley's post surprising. Everything about Kane, aside from that summer when he wanted to join City, indicates that he was the consummate pro.
 
Muttley said:
Kane was always passive aggressive in his interviews. The biggest culprit of mentality was Kane himself. He just quit on multiple managers in those moments where the lungs had to hurt and you had to dig deep. He thought he could bluff it out by scoring goals and then pretend he was going for headers and putting in a shift. He then did his passive aggressive interviews and most of the world fell for the con artist.

Harry had the most talent, but weakest mentality in that changing room.
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I don't think Harry faked it, I think he just got old and physically wasn't capable of the press anymore. Remember in the early Porch days he was a pressing machine, he also used to run with the ball and was (overly) confident in his dribbling. All those years of playing every match and every minute just wore him out. Look at him at Bayern, consistent little injury niggles andhe still isn't doing the running from his youth. No payer can keep the workload up, when you get older your game has to adjust.
 
braineclipse said:
Absolutely.

I think not making subs can be a part of it perhaps, but on it's own obviously not sufficient. But can perhaps be a part in helping the players really understand that they can't just look to Ange, the subs or a captain to help them out. They all have to look to themselves and each other.

I think having a more experienced "standard bearer" can help. Imo Hojbjerg provided some of that. As did Kane. As have others. That on it's own isn't enough either as we've seen repeatedly.

We've had players like Modric and Bale who for themselves had great mentality imo, but were still part of a non elite mentality as a group here. Go to Real Madrid and fit right in to a group with great mentality. That has to be built, developed, that takes time. It's not fixed by any one thing. We can point at managers, captains, leaders whatever and that is important. But for a truly great mentality to set in it has to be the squad as a whole.

For me (speculatively for sure) Ange's non substitution symbolises something important. The players have to learn, if not they will sink, somewhere, somehow. As they did in a limited way against Brighton. With that Ange too will sink of course. But that is the reality. There's only so much he can do if they don't learn/develop on this. A solid part of that responsibility has to be on them. Ange, imo, has to be willing to fail on this. He has to be "stubborn". Because if he is desperately trying to paper over the cracks and get "false results" he's trying to take the part of the responsibility that has to be on the players for them to develop on this.

I don't know if Ange is or can be a great manager in a big league. But to me, looking from the outside, he seems to be trying to instill what great managers are able to instill and what imo has been really important for their success.

I quite like also with this what was brought up on the pod. The initial meeting post game is for the players, not Ange and the coaches. They can't just look to him for solutions, they have to find solutions.
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Such a good post and i could not agree more. I have posted before about a lack of a winning mentality among our players and imo was one of the main reasons we failed to win anything under Pooch. We can have all the talent but unless the mentality is within the players we will lose a lot of big games.

Pooch failed to install that i am hoping that given time Ange will be able to achieve that.
 
Kandi1977 said:
Would have been, if we had followed it up by winning at Brighton, as we should have.
As it happened, it was two steps forward and 3 steps back!
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I said at the time beating United wasn't the coup Raziel felt it was. United are genuinely brick, dog brick. We absolutely should be beating them because even with them being brick they are also a shambles. The only we could lose against them is via self destruction, well we did see that against Brighton.
 
Bishop said:
I said at the time beating United wasn't the coup Raziel felt it was. United are genuinely brick, dog brick. We absolutely should be beating them because even with them being brick they are also a shambles. The only we could lose against them is via self destruction, well we did see that against Brighton.
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Agreed but one win for us will not be a turning point, even if it's a 5-0 against City. We can beat anyone on our day...problem is we can also lose to anyone on our day.
 
I don't think kane faked it, but I do think he got to a point where he knew no matter what he did the team was not going to succeed and at that point he became more about his records than the clubs.
 
Bishop said:
I don't think Harry faked it, I think he just got old and physically wasn't capable of the press anymore. Remember in the early Porch days he was a pressing machine, he also used to run with the ball and was (overly) confident in his dribbling. All those years of playing every match and every minute just wore him out. Look at him at Bayern, consistent little injury niggles andhe still isn't doing the running from his youth. No payer can keep the workload up, when you get older your game has to adjust.
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Totally agree. Think Harry clearly loved playing under Mourinho particularly as he felt he had a manager that matched his own mentality. Think he felt similar under Conte, but having witnessed two "guaranteed trophy" managers get more and more exasperated with the players and club in general probably came to the realisation that he had to leave to win things while he still could.

Kane's legs had started to go before he left. It wasn't just at Spurs, he's looked leggy in an England shirt too. Son is similar. We've had years of Son and Kane being undroppable and they're not super-human. I only played at an amateur level and in my early 40s now I have joint pain in my right knee, my ankle and a variety of chronic muscle problems caused by playing regular 11 a side football from the age of around.15.

So GHod only knows what it does to you at that level. I think Alan Shearer opened up once to being in constant pain?
 
DeanoAustin said:
According to The Athletic, Kane was one of only two players still supporting Jose at the end.

I find @Muttley's post surprising. Everything about Kane, aside from that summer when he wanted to join City, indicates that he was the consummate pro.
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I genuinely don't think people watched him closely enough, apart from maybe the England supporters who didn't have the Spurs bias. They would go crazy at Harry on the terraces, especially in the the Euros at Wembley where he was an absolute disgrace. Just ask Kyle Walker who could have throttled Harry for not showing and putting in a shift. We were all glad to see a proper leader like Hendo come on the pitch.

Also remember that City fiasco was when he was 27 years old. After that slight injury in 2021, Harry never returned to full commitment even at his peak years. I was posting on another site until recently and we would discuss in games when Harry would pull out of many headers and tackles. We used to ID them and there was plenty of nodding heads on the subject. I remember at one point where he cost us 3 goals in 4 games and something like 4 points in the league. All the happy clappers wanted to talk about was the goals. I'd advise anyone to back and watch Harry for 90 mins in the infamous AC Milan home game. Harry's attitude absolutely stunk.

When you think about what you said above about Harry and Jose, that is actually more passive aggressive BS from them. Of course Harry would say that because he knew that Jose let him get away with not putting in a proper shift. He let him amble about and wasn't strong enough to sub him, leave him on the bench or get him to shut down properly. Jose knew Harry was bigger than him at THFC. Personally, I think Ange was secretly glad Harry moved on and allowed us to get stronger characters around the place.

Said this many times, Harry has elite level abilities, especially finishing, but he doesn't have anywhere near an elite level mentality. It's a gap in his build.
 
Muttley said:
I genuinely don't think people watched him closely enough, apart from maybe the England supporters who didn't have the Spurs bias. They would go crazy at Harry on the terraces, especially in the the Euros at Wembley where he was an absolute disgrace. Just ask Kyle Walker who could have throttled Harry for not showing and putting in a shift. We were all glad to see a proper leader like Hendo come on the pitch.

Also remember that City fiasco was when he was 27 years old. After that slight injury in 2021, Harry never returned to full commitment even at his peak years. I was posting on another site until recently and we would discuss in games when Harry would pull out of many headers and tackles. We used to ID them and there was plenty of nodding heads on the subject. I remember at one point where he cost us 3 goals in 4 games and something like 4 points in the league. All the happy clappers wanted to talk about was the goals. I'd advise anyone to back and watch Harry for 90 mins in the infamous AC Milan home game. Harry's attitude absolutely stunk.

When you think about what you said above about Harry and Jose, that is actually more passive aggressive BS from them. Of course Harry would say that because he knew that Jose let him get away with not putting in a proper shift. He let him amble about and wasn't strong enough to sub him, leave him on the bench or get him to shut down properly. Jose knew Harry was bigger than him at THFC. Personally, I think Ange was secretly glad Harry moved on and allowed us to get stronger characters around the place.

Said this many times, Harry has elite level abilities, especially finishing, but he doesn't have anywhere near an elite level mentality. It's a gap in his build.
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Interesting...how did you think Harry performed under Conte?
And when did you think Kane's 'bad attitude' started?
 
Muttley said:
I genuinely don't think people watched him closely enough, apart from maybe the England supporters who didn't have the Spurs bias. They would go crazy at Harry on the terraces, especially in the the Euros at Wembley where he was an absolute disgrace. Just ask Kyle Walker who could have throttled Harry for not showing and putting in a shift. We were all glad to see a proper leader like Hendo come on the pitch.

Also remember that City fiasco was when he was 27 years old. After that slight injury in 2021, Harry never returned to full commitment even at his peak years. I was posting on another site until recently and we would discuss in games when Harry would pull out of many headers and tackles. We used to ID them and there was plenty of nodding heads on the subject. I remember at one point where he cost us 3 goals in 4 games and something like 4 points in the league. All the happy clappers wanted to talk about was the goals. I'd advise anyone to back and watch Harry for 90 mins in the infamous AC Milan home game. Harry's attitude absolutely stunk.

When you think about what you said above about Harry and Jose, that is actually more passive aggressive BS from them. Of course Harry would say that because he knew that Jose let him get away with not putting in a proper shift. He let him amble about and wasn't strong enough to sub him, leave him on the bench or get him to shut down properly. Jose knew Harry was bigger than him at THFC. Personally, I think Ange was secretly glad Harry moved on and allowed us to get stronger characters around the place.

Said this many times, Harry has elite level abilities, especially finishing, but he doesn't have anywhere near an elite level mentality. It's a gap in his build.
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Can't agree but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Harry played all 38 games in his final season with us when it was an utter brickshow - doesn't seem like a lad who was phoning it in but each to their own. None of us knows what really goes on in his head so maybe you are right.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Interesting...how did you think Harry performed under Conte?
And when did you think Kane's 'bad attitude' started?
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Feb 2021 was when I first noticed it. Harry had a little injury in Jan and when he came back I thought it was that as the root cause. Others (who went to games) said that they had noticed it before even I did. When you think back, that was a critical period. Harry had it in his head that he was off to City that summer and even turned up late for pre-season. Us fans never got a good explanation for that. Of course, in between was the Euro's and that is where I got to see him for 5 games live. I was shocked at just how lazy he was. His performance against Grant Hanley in the Scotland game was one of his lowest point in his attitude. He was just being a coward all game and the England fans wanted him off.

As for under Conte, Harry just set his stall out the same way he did with Jose. Conte was another manager not brave enough to sub him, bench him or even rest him. So subservient to a player that wasn't pulling on the shirt with the right mentality. The number 9 duties became a joke apart from scoring. Harry would deliberately step forward, jump early and pretend he was competing for a header with his back to goal. He was just pretending like he still does in an England shirt. Harry would have only 25-30 touches in 95 mins because he never showed for the ball and never helped with the physical burden. What I would say though, is that the goals kept coming even though the assists fell through the floor. 3 assists in 38 games was woeful for a player of that ability and that was one of the indicators of his lack of effort.

Btw, I was Harry's biggest fan when he came through our system. I loved a 24 year old Kane along with Dele and Eriksen. I just didn't like the person Kane became in our colours. I hope Ange keeps these guys grounded because that didn't happen with Harry. lol - or his prick of a brother.
 
Muttley said:
Feb 2021 was when I first noticed it. Harry had a little injury in Jan and when he came back I thought it was that as the root cause. Others (who went to games) said that they had noticed it before even I did. When you think back, that was a critical period. Harry had it in his head that he was off to City that summer and even turned up late for pre-season. Us fans never got a good explanation for that. Of course, in between was the Euro's and that is where I got to see him for 5 games live. I was shocked at just how lazy he was. His performance against Grant Hanley in the Scotland game was one of his lowest point in his attitude. He was just being a coward all game and the England fans wanted him off.

As for under Conte, Harry just set his stall out the same way he did with Jose. Conte was another manager not brave enough to sub him, bench him or even rest him. So subservient to a player that wasn't pulling on the shirt with the right mentality. The number 9 duties became a joke apart from scoring. Harry would deliberately step forward, jump early and pretend he was competing for a header with his back to goal. He was just pretending like he still does in an England shirt. Harry would have only 25-30 touches in 95 mins because he never showed for the ball and never helped with the physical burden. What I would say though, is that the goals kept coming even though the assists fell through the floor. 3 assists in 38 games was woeful for a player of that ability and that was one of the indicators of his lack of effort.

Btw, I was Harry's biggest fan when he came through our system. I loved a 24 year old Kane along with Dele and Eriksen. I just didn't like the person Kane became in our colours. I hope Ange keeps these guys grounded because that didn't happen with Harry. lol - or his prick of a brother.
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Hmm, very interesting detail, thanks.

Personally, i give Harry some slack in that he put his body on the line for us many times, to his and our detriment sometimes.
I suspect in those later periods where you noticed his effort dropping, he was probably starting to think that he needed to protect his longevity as a footballer: plus we were more and more showing little to no ambition when compared to what he (and we) must have thought before he signed that 6 year deal in 2018.


Overall, some of that could have been avoided if the club actually went and bought some competition so we didn't have to rely some much on Harry and his physical exertions: he'd a) have been able to rest his body more and b) have known that he'd not automatically play if he wasn't able to put the level of effort in required and so maybe would have had less of an eye on prolonging his career and just making sure he was fit instead of rushing back

Ultimately, how things went with Harry is a symptom of how things went with the club and how when it comes to the crunch they really don't 'push on' when they are in great positions to succeed.


I bare no ill-feeling to Harry whatsoever because of the last point, we would do well to get close to the very best levels he took us to in the next few years imo
 
Muttley said:
Feb 2021 was when I first noticed it. Harry had a little injury in Jan and when he came back I thought it was that as the root cause. Others (who went to games) said that they had noticed it before even I did. When you think back, that was a critical period. Harry had it in his head that he was off to City that summer and even turned up late for pre-season. Us fans never got a good explanation for that. Of course, in between was the Euro's and that is where I got to see him for 5 games live. I was shocked at just how lazy he was. His performance against Grant Hanley in the Scotland game was one of his lowest point in his attitude. He was just being a coward all game and the England fans wanted him off.

As for under Conte, Harry just set his stall out the same way he did with Jose. Conte was another manager not brave enough to sub him, bench him or even rest him. So subservient to a player that wasn't pulling on the shirt with the right mentality. The number 9 duties became a joke apart from scoring. Harry would deliberately step forward, jump early and pretend he was competing for a header with his back to goal. He was just pretending like he still does in an England shirt. Harry would have only 25-30 touches in 95 mins because he never showed for the ball and never helped with the physical burden. What I would say though, is that the goals kept coming even though the assists fell through the floor. 3 assists in 38 games was woeful for a player of that ability and that was one of the indicators of his lack of effort.

Btw, I was Harry's biggest fan when he came through our system. I loved a 24 year old Kane along with Dele and Eriksen. I just didn't like the person Kane became in our colours. I hope Ange keeps these guys grounded because that didn't happen with Harry. lol - or his prick of a brother.
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Has Kane been banging your better half? Some unfounded level of brick being thrown here.
 
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