Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah, it's bgecome a bit checken and egg. Players stopped running./showing for the ball because the ball never comes, palyers stop passing because the players aren't making runs to get them into space etc etc.

The biggest culprit is often Maddison, but i don't get why Bentancur and Sarr have become like this as well...again, i guess a good DM/6/Palhinha type solves a lot of this...who is that guy for us? Bissouma? Gray?

No idea
Bit I think some players suit some styles and others don’t
I haveng seen Pailniha At Bayern big over here he was good but reckless imo and would have the same issues we always have that our DM gets carded and changes their game

One guy I’ve heard we are looking at is Angel Gomes. HG too. Technically very good and a tempo creator. Not sure how his defensive qualities align though

 

[glorygloryeze]

No idea
Bit I think some players suit some styles and others don’t
I haveng seen Pailniha At Bayern big over here he was good but reckless imo and would have the same issues we always have that our DM gets carded and changes their game

One guy I’ve heard we are looking at is Angel Gomes. HG too. Technically very good and a tempo creator. Not sure how his defensive qualities align though

Interesting...where did you hear that we are looking at Angel Gomes?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Interesting...where did you hear that we are looking at Angel Gomes?

Only online and on a small scale
So no where certain
He is out of contract next summer and I know we looked at home when he was at United

 

[Cundies undies]

Only online and on a small scale
So no where certain
He is out of contract next summer and I know we looked at home when he was at United

I heard that about 5-6 days ago, think it was Chris Cowlin on YT.

No real knowledge about the player so I mostly ignored it as internet rumors

 

[parklane1]

Yeah, i do wonder if a very good DM (and a system where midfielders are more distinct in their roles, i.e. great if they can all get up and down the pitch but perhaps some more balance in that at least one is told to hang back a bit more, ditto the full-backs) would free a lot of the players' minds and let them worry much less

I have been banging on about our failure to get a DM in for a long while. Our other MF players are talented but NONE of them can read a game with a defensive mindset. In other words we have some very talented CM but none of them are reading the game from a DM point of view. Imo its our biggest weakness.

 

[Muttley]

Some fans are saying our biggest weakness is not playing an orthodox DM in this Ange system.

Not sure whether this will work or not, but have a look at this heatmap - https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1866074/Live/England-League-Cup-2024-2025-Coventry-Tottenham

So Bentancur was playing the 6 for us last night. Just take a look at his heatmap in an Ange system and tell me whether that is what we should expect to see.

For me, it sort of proves why we're having this issue.

 

[Raziel]

Some fans are saying our biggest weakness is not playing an orthodox DM in this Ange system.

Not sure whether this will work or not, but have a look at this heatmap - https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1866074/Live/England-League-Cup-2024-2025-Coventry-Tottenham

So Bentancur was playing the 6 for us last night. Just take a look at his heatmap in an Ange system and tell me whether that is what we should expect to see.

For me, it sort of proves why we're having this issue.

Actually that Heat Map seems to show him sitting in 6 space, and when he's not, he's in the 8 role (assuming the plan is to have one of the 8's move to cover)

I agree with @parklane1 it's not the system, it's about having a player that is by nature a DM (technically competent and can recycle quickly but naturally defensive). I keep saying, City's record with/without Rodri is the easiest example of why you need a WC player in that role in a high press, possession based teams.

 

[Yiddo]

View attachment 17685

Actually that Heat Map seems to show him sitting in 6 space, and when he's not, he's in the 8 role (assuming the plan is to have one of the 8's move to cover)

I agree with @parklane1 it's not the system, it's about having a player that is by nature a DM (technically competent and can recycle quickly but naturally defensive). I keep saying, City's record with/without Rodri is the easiest example of why you need a WC player in that role in a high press, possession based teams.

The heat map shows the diagram of the face all spurs fans were pulling last night watching that brick on the tv.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

The heat map shows the diagram of the face all spurs fans were pulling last night watching that brick on the tv.

Brilliant.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Some fans are saying our biggest weakness is not playing an orthodox DM in this Ange system.

Not sure whether this will work or not, but have a look at this heatmap - https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1866074/Live/England-League-Cup-2024-2025-Coventry-Tottenham

So Bentancur was playing the 6 for us last night. Just take a look at his heatmap in an Ange system and tell me whether that is what we should expect to see.

For me, it sort of proves why we're having this issue.

I think it is not having a Rodri, a very elite player in that position to play such an attacking game.

 

[Kandi1977]

@Bedfordspurs you raise a fair point about the start of the second season under Poch vs the start under Ange. Gernally points/results-wise they are very similar.

However, what i would say is that with Poch the credit he had in the bank with us by the same point with the results he'd got with us as a club alone (and excluding previous stints hat either of them had) was more.
Poch had shown with games against our closest bitter rivals plus against what would be classed as the 'top teams' that he could get results in such 'big games'. It could very easily be argued that Ange hasn't shown the same levels and has less credit built up.

Looking purely at wins, these are the teams Ange has won against up to this point:
Man Utd
Bournemouth (x2)
Burnley (x3)
Sheffield Utd (x2)
Liverpool
Luton (x2)
Fulham
Palace (x2)
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Forest (x2)
Everton (x2)
Brentford
Brighton
Villa

ZERO wins in our biggest/most veciferous London derbies (vs Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham). Valiant points vs City and Arsenal, lucky win vs Liverpool and zero wins (after Villa in mid-March) against anyone who we would describe as decent, in fact all defeats after that.

Compare that to wins with Poch up to same point:
West ham
QPR (x2)
Arsenal
Soton
Villa
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (x2)
Hull (x2)
Everton (x2)
Chelsea
Swansea (x2)
Burnley (x2)
Leicester (x2)
Sunderland
West Brom
Sheff utd (cup only)
Brighton (cup only)
Nottm Forest (cup only)

There were those infamous wins vs Chelsea and Arsenal (both very good AND as always big rivals) where we showed what we could do when what Poch was working towards clicked. We won that first away hotbed of a game vs west Ham when we had Naughton sent off early and we won by a late Goal from Dier. Yes, we were lucky that they missed their penalty when they had a man advantage and eventually were reduced to ten men themselves. But there was a pragmatism and grit Poch showed in that game: compare that to when we went down to 10 and even 9 vs Chelsea at home last year and yet kept persisting with the suicidal highline against a Chelsea team that were bang average and only had pace in behind at their disposal...chalk and cheese in terms of being pragmatic and adaptable to a difficult situation.

I don't think we have seen a similar set of games from Ange where you look and think wow, this is what is possible if we just have x or y. As shown most of his wins are against fodder, the highlight being Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Man Utd last season (both very good wins btw), but can't compare to the heights Poch showed in his equivalent first year and few games of the second. I'm not going to include the Liverpool win for what should be obvious reasons.
So generally, i get the point about giving a manager time, but i don't think we can or should use Poch's equivalent start with us as a comparison because it makes Ange look even worse tbh...

A win against Arse (who weren't as good then as they are now) and Chelsea is the only difference. Otherwise it's crap teams. Very very little difference.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think it's less of a "6" and more thar every top side needs a player willing to make himself available to take the ball off the defence at all times, keep it under pressure and either wriggle past the press himself or turn and distribute it quickly and accurately. The difference between every Spurs team that felt like it worked over the last 20 years and those that didn't is that the ones that worked had Michael Carrick, Luka Modric or Moussa Dembele in them. The other teams didn't have a player like that and hovered between inconsistent and dysfunctional as a result.

I think its def both TBH, you have to have someone who is willing to sit and read the game out of possession, knowing when to join in and also not is key for me. Being in that space where you anticipate "ok we might lose the ball on the edge of the box, do I charge in or do I keep shape and make myself available to track the break away". What I see with us and not just in the "6" role is that when we lose the ball the FBS run round like loons and get sucked in too easy, thats a fault with their discipline IMO so if the CM does the same you are left overly exposed. Sometimes its better for the 6 to track back and almost join is as a sweeper than get drawn to the ball, the players you mentioned were brilliant at it, very often they would central to block the cross and or be ready to receive the ball if we retrieve it. Rodri might be a bad example because he is so GHod, but he knows when to step up and put his foot in and also drop to act as a 3rd CB, its an art in itself

 

[Kompakted]

I think its def both TBH, you have to have someone who is willing to sit and read the game out of possession, knowing when to join in and also not is key for me. Being in that space where you anticipate "ok we might lose the ball on the edge of the box, do I charge in or do I keep shape and make myself available to track the break away". What I see with us and not just in the "6" role is that when we lose the ball the FBS run round like loons and get sucked in too easy, thats a fault with their discipline IMO so if the CM does the same you are left overly exposed. Sometimes its better for the 6 to track back and almost join is as a sweeper than get drawn to the ball, the players you mentioned were brilliant at it, very often they would central to block the cross and or be ready to receive the ball if we retrieve it. Rodri might be a bad example because he is so GHod, but he knows when to step up and put his foot in and also drop to act as a 3rd CB, its an art in itself

You're probably right. I think Ange's system is too open currently and there is a discipline issue as you very much say. If I compare it to the Poch system at its peak performance not only did we have Dembele who was very good at beating the press and relieving the defence, you had Dier or Wanyams operating as a DM in a very discipline role which actually involved them dropping into the CB spot to create a 3 when the full backs pushed up.

Poch's system.was very aggressive and attacking but the discipline defensively was on an order of magnitude more refined than so far under Ange.

 

[Muttley]

View attachment 17685

Actually that Heat Map seems to show him sitting in 6 space, and when he's not, he's in the 8 role (assuming the plan is to have one of the 8's move to cover)

I agree with @parklane1 it's not the system, it's about having a player that is by nature a DM (technically competent and can recycle quickly but naturally defensive). I keep saying, City's record with/without Rodri is the easiest example of why you need a WC player in that role in a high press, possession based teams.

Yes, but the problem is who is covering that 6 space when Bents is in the 8 space. That is the problem I see in Ange's system. I don't see the other 2 midfielders spending any significant time there. I'm not even sure that is the plan anyway. I wonder whether it is the full-backs job to tuck in and become the defensive 6. Pep does it the other way, where he lets Walker become the centre half and Akanji become the 6.

What is interesting is that Conte was all about zones. He had Bents as a superb number 6 protecting our back four. When he first joined, Bents would position himself well, he would eat up the ground and cover all the gaps. He was also good on the ball. Now we're saying he's not equipped with the right skillsets. Is that really true?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes, but the problem is who is covering that 6 space when Bents is in the 8 space. That is the problem I see in Ange's system. I don't see the other 2 midfielders spending any significant time there. I'm not even sure that is the plan anyway. I wonder whether it is the full-backs job to tuck in and become the defensive 6. Pep does it the other way, where he lets Walker become the centre half and Akanji become the 6.

What is interesting is that Conte was all about zones. He had Bents as a superb number 6 protecting our back four. When he first joined, Bents would position himself well, he would eat up the ground and cover all the gaps. He was also good on the ball. Now we're saying he's not equipped with the right skillsets. Is that really true?

Hojberg did the role you describe for Conte IMO, not Bentacur
Bentacur was the aggressor doing the small amount of pressing conte wanted
I think the talk about the CM is ignoring the issue that the problem right now is everything is slow.
We don’t need to stop counter attacks if we’re attacking better. Hell we have faced 2 per game so far
What we do need to do is move the ball better

 

[glorygloryeze]

A win against (who weren't as good then as they are now) and Chelsea is the only difference. Otherwise it's crap teams. Very very little difference.

Just for clarity, a win against who?

Regardless, Poch won vs Arsenal (perennial top 4 then), Chelsea (ended up being league champions and i actually think we actually ended Jose as a top coach that day) and West Ham btw. We have ZERO against such vociferous local rivals so far...

What are our equivalent victories so far under Ange?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just for clarity, a win against who?

Regardless, Poch won vs Arsenal (perennial top 4 then), Chelsea (ended up being league champions and i actually think we actually ended Jose as a top coach that day) and West Ham btw. We have ZERO against such vociferous local rivals so far...

What are our equivalent victories so far under Ange?

United and Liverpool plus the draw at Arsenal
Your talking about local rivals of course and that now has a bigger impact because there are more London teams than ever

 

[Kandi1977]

Just for clarity, a win against who?

Regardless, Poch won vs Arsenal (perennial top 4 then), Chelsea (ended up being league champions and i actually think we actually ended Jose as a top coach that day) and West Ham btw. We have ZERO against such vociferous local rivals so far...

What are our equivalent victories so far under Ange?

Liverpool, United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa. There's very little difference between Poch and Ange in terms of victories at this stage in their reign.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I see our attack has been downgraded on the new FIFA game which came out today

 

[Raziel]

Yes, but the problem is who is covering that 6 space when Bents is in the 8 space. That is the problem I see in Ange's system. I don't see the other 2 midfielders spending any significant time there. I'm not even sure that is the plan anyway. I wonder whether it is the full-backs job to tuck in and become the defensive 6. Pep does it the other way, where he lets Walker become the centre half and Akanji become the 6.

What is interesting is that Conte was all about zones. He had Bents as a superb number 6 protecting our back four. When he first joined, Bents would position himself well, he would eat up the ground and cover all the gaps. He was also good on the ball. Now we're saying he's not equipped with the right skillsets. Is that really true?

Ange's system (in it's basic form) is 4-3-3 out of possession transitioning to 2-3-5, The FB's do tuck in alongside the 6, then the two 8's need to know if the 6 or the two FBs (who definitively do) move forward into space, they need to swap back (we have seen Maddison and Udogie swap multiple times in an attack)

Bentancur was on the verge of being elite pre-injury, he carried that Conte midfield (Conte's system issue was he pretty much guaranteed the midfield would be outnumbered in most games, so from a possession perspective we would struggle to consistently out possess the opposition and dominate them via midfield, not an issue with Ange, we out-possess everyone). Is Bentancur that player now? don't know, this season will tell but the argument remains that a purely DM minded midfielder could help.

I still think it's a balance issue, who's the right mix between Biss, Bentancur, Sarr, Gray, Bergvall, Maddison and how do you squeeze Kulu into that midfield?