Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[DubSpur]

Why is it a lie? Because you disagree with it? There was zero fan pressure on Levy to sack Poch, Harry, Jose, Conte or Jol. Granted there are other factors but it wasn’t the fans who sacked those managers. I suspect you want to shift the blame away from Levy to the fans for whatever reason.

There was fan pressure growing for Jose. For the others there was all obvious factors that led to them being sacked, whether you agree with them or not, it wasn't just a case of Levy being trigger happy (or Lewis in the case of Redknapp).

 

[billyiddo]

Sacking managers is part & parcel of the game. Not sure why it's a topic of contention tbh

 

[glorygloryeze]

There was fan pressure growing for Jose. For the others there was all obvious factors that led to them being sacked, whether you agree with them or not, it wasn't just a case of Levy being trigger happy (or Lewis in the case of Redknapp).

Tbf to the fans, i doubt that pressure was growing to a point that the sacking to had to happen right before the league cup final..

 

[Jurgen the German]

Sacking managers is part & parcel of the game. Not sure why it's a topic of contention tbh

Which is fine. The only point of contention is the sentiment that our fans are growing impatient which will lead to Leve sacking Ange. My point was Levy has sacked managers when there was very little pressure on him to do so. We can debate the the timings of the sackings all day but Levy isn’t as patient compared to the chairman of clubs like United, Liverpool and Arsenal. Tommy needs to worry more about Levy than a handful of fans on a football forum especially when there’s no fudging pressure in the stadium.

 

[tommysvr]

Why is it a lie? Because you disagree with it? There was zero fan pressure on Levy to sack Poch, Harry, Jose, Conte or Jol. Granted there are other factors but it wasn’t the fans who sacked those managers. I suspect you want to shift the blame away from Levy to the fans for whatever reason.

There was absolutely pressure on 4 of them. To say there wasn’t makes you sound a fool. Poch is the only debatable one, so I’ll give you that. Which makes it one example in 20+ years of what you’re saying. Well done.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tbf to the fans, i doubt that pressure was growing to a point that the sacking to had to happen right before the league cup final..

That was odd
But clearly seems to be financially driven

 

[Raziel]

Kind of getting away from the point which was that there seems to be a feeling it’s our fans that lead to managers getting sacked when more often than not it’s the impatience of the club hierarchy. The last time there was real prolonged unhappiness with the manager was George Graham.

Nuno says hi!

 

[parklane1]

No manager should be immune from criticism
But the reaction after 3 games form some is incredibly odd

 

[Muttley]

Which is fine. The only point of contention is the sentiment that our fans are growing impatient which will lead to Leve sacking Ange. My point was Levy has sacked managers when there was very little pressure on him to do so. We can debate the the timings of the sackings all day but Levy isn’t as patient compared to the chairman of clubs like United, Liverpool and Arsenal. Tommy needs to worry more about Levy than a handful of fans on a football forum especially when there’s no fudging pressure in the stadium.

How would a sacking even work now that Scott Munn is running football operations? Levy has sort of promised us that he is out of the day-to-day in this area. He would lose face if he got back involved and fired a manager over the heads of his direct reports. My assumption would be that it would be Munn driving the decision and Levy backing his MDoF.

I don't think Ange will get fired for the normal reasons. He just won't be renewed if he hits a plateau and we think someone different can take us higher.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Nuno says hi!

For 1 game when the crowd booed him for taking Moura off?

 

[Jurgen the German]

There was absolutely pressure on 4 of them. To say there wasn’t makes you sound a fool. Poch is the only debatable one, so I’ll give you that. Which makes it one example in 20+ years of what you’re saying. Well done.

Can I ask if you ever actually attend any games in person? I’ve been going regularly for 30+ years and have been a ST holder since 2015 and I can assure you there wasn’t pressure from the crowd for Levy to sack any of those managers I mentioned. If you’re counting a few people on a football forum and are using that as evidence to make your point then that’s completely incorrect. Why are you so aggy in your responses?

 

[glorygloryeze]

This will derail .. but here goes .. (and it's been done to death)

I didn't expect Poch to win the league at any point, he should have given the opportunity that presented itself but it was never an "expectation". I wouldn't even have put the "he had to win a cup in this season" on him, because it was clear the club's priorities were CL spots at the time. My issue with Poch was/is his failure to covert a first 11 (that by design or luck) was a level above anything Spurs has had in decades, within the opportunities that presented itself, in that Leicester season, in that CL final, in the numerous cup semi's (not all, but at least 1). That wasn't specifically a 2nd season criticism

Just to clarify, i thought i remebered you bringing up big criticism of Poch in the early ganmes of his second season, i.e. the first two games of the 2015-16 season i think when we dropped two points at home to Stoke when we lost a two gaol lead relatively late in the game and drew 2-2 from being 2-0 up and being totally in control until the last 10 minutes. I remember thinking you were quite harsh in your criticism but you were very lucid and succint in explaining why you were criticising. I found it interesting to compare to now.

I'm not comparing your general criticism of poch's time with us overall, just to be clear but comparing your approaches to the reviews of the two coaches at basicaly the same junctures uin their time with the club.

Lloris, Rose, Jan, Toby, Walker, Dembele, Eriksen, Dele, Son, Kane in their primes is something Ange doesn't have (three of those fudging players are still playing at an elite level today), people will talk about windows/investments, reality? Poch got beaten by Claudio Ranieri's Leicester, not some City/Pool/Chelsea side.

I would agree with that but also say Poch doesn't have access to the funding that his successors have had, including Ange. Remember the restrictions to our spending because of A) our relatively small ground capacity and B) the fact were were squirrelling money away to prepare to build a new stadium. I would actually think we'd have been hard pressed to find anyone else in world football that pushed us towards the top in those same circumstances. Poch got beaten by Ranieri's Leicester: but so did LVG, Wenger, Klopp, Pellegrini et al. Yes, i'd have liked us to take advantage of the fact that the other big teams majorly faltered that year but it's not like we would have been favourites before that season to finish top 4 let alone challenge for a title. We were never in the title seat at any time, we just made a much better fist of keeping things interesting as late as possible compared to the usual suspects. Also, remember we had Europe that season but Leicester (and Chelsea a season later) had the big advantage that they didn't have those extra games/distractions to contend with.

Ange's criticisms come down to -> I don't think this "high risk" system will pay off at this level (it has worked elsewhere), truth is, none of us know, until he is given time and players that fit the system at the right quality (don't think we are there yet, don't think anyone does)

This is fair - but then you could say that about any manager: "we need to see what they can do when they 'fully have their players'". At some point a judgement is made as to if said manager/coach is worth that backing (especially given our ownership model which means resources will always be somewhat limited compared to some of our competitors). For example, did anyone know how Nuno would have done if he dot more time and backing to get players to fit his system? Would many have been prepared to find out?

Poch criticisms and level limitations haven't changed since he left Spurs, even when given vastly greater resources, in my opinion .. proven true

This is true. However, we still don't know if Ange can reach Poch's level though..some could argue with good amount of information that he hasn't yet or even can't: remember Ange managed far less games last season in his first season compared to Poch in his first: poch made a cup final and played Europa league games, whilst Ange had far more free time to implement his methods in comparison).

Regardless of my opinion of Poch, it's not the same Spurs today, BMJ -> Ramos -> Harry -> AVB -> Poch was a relatively linear path (as close as it gets in football. Post Poch, the club lost it's way, it pivoted to a short term view that we didn't have the cash to bankroll, dealt with Covid and served up pretty bricky viewing (regardless of results or not), all of that is on the club/ownership.

Very true

Hence my opinion on Ange is different, some pretty drastic decisions have been made, re club structure, who runs football, recruitment, squad turnover with pretty good investment as well. To expect those things to pay off in not even 18 months is a little unrealistic, so my patience/expectation is tempered, and built on by the fact that in the interim, the football is fun to watch and we try not only to win, but to dominate sides in the process.

Ange is certainly a 'Spurs type' attacking manager. But then so was Ardiles, Poch, Hoddle etc. It says a lot about how often grim we've been post Poch that just being an 'attacking manager' is breath of fresh air. Losing in 'Spurzy' fashion also seems more common these days too, sadly...oh well...

Again, bricky sample size but Ange's first 3 games statistically are an improvement on last season (stats won't matter if not converted to wins), Poch's team (IIRC, was a while ago now) statistically peaked about 2 years in.

Actually Poch peaked 3 years in, but then it was indeed a steady decline until his sacking. I still think he embedded methods kept us in the top four in that CL final season when we really had no right to still be there given our decline in GHod overall performances form from January 2019 onwards, plus the fact we hadn't brought in new blood the previous infamous summer. The writing was on the wall from then, and i have to say sometimes it feels similar to our last few months (albeit Ange is in the far earlier stage in his tenure compared). What keeps the faith is being able to point to games when things DID click and when Spurs were actively NOT Spurzy, i.e. beating a rival well physically and/or tactically. In the same period i could point to Poch games in 2014 and 2015 vs Chelsea, Arsenal (both home and away). I feel like in comparison we are having to really reach to get equivalents for Ange in his equivalent time here at this point. Maybe Emirates Marketing Project and Arsenal away last season?

I for the first time feel the club is willing to both back and give Ange time (too many future players to have a this year top 4 or bust approach), the question is more of a fan thing, which was my point earlier, unrealistic expectations -> anger -> changes environment around club -> does not help players or manager or our success in long run .. people will do whatever they want to and I guess that's their right to do so?

I hear you on this...but....we have had a lot of 'future players' bought for previous managers (it's what we seem to do most comfortably) but that often DID NOT look like they were really backing said manager or given them time, but more wanting to 'play things safe' rather than take a chance to really push on to next level by buying a player that we had to outbid at least a couple of rivals to buy. I think if most thought only Solanke would be the player we'd buy in the summer who had more than one year of PL experience and who was older than 20...
For me? I feel a little deja-vu here and i'm a bit miffed that the club's approach doesn't really seem to have changed from the Poch/AVB days before the new stadium, when the emphasis then was 'focusing on youth and resale value'. I guess time will tell...

Regardless, i appreciated your detailed reply and thought i'd try and offer the same courtesy even if we might disagree on large bits..

 

[Mikey10]

No manager should be immune from criticism
But the reaction after 3 games form some is incredibly odd

I think if it wasn’t a follow-on from months of declining results and performances post-November of last year then people wouldn’t be jumping to conclusions quite so quickly. It’s fine for some to say that it’s a new season, with new personnel added; but some of the issues that were causing us problems last season are still there so far this season, even with new bodies. I find it hard to blame anyone for therefore making connections. I’m making some of them myself.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think if it wasn’t a follow-on from months of declining results and performances post-November of last year then people wouldn’t be jumping to conclusions quite so quickly. It’s fine for some to say that it’s a new season, with new personnel added; but some of the issues that were causing us problems last season are still there so far this season, even with new bodies. I find it hard to blame anyone for therefore making connections. I’m making some of them myself.

What issues are still there?
Individual errors
What else?
Injuries… but they always happen

 

[metalgear]

No manager should be immune from criticism
But the reaction after 3 games form some is incredibly odd

i believe that its the same feeling after half a season + 3 games.
but yeah calling for the sack now isn't the best solution
especially since solanke our top transfer target is out injured. looks like both solanke and richy will get fit at the same time too haha. so much for cover.

 

[Mikey10]

What issues are still there?
Individual errors
What else?
Injuries… but they always happen

We struggle to put teams away when on top and still look very open to counter attacks. Vicario still looks rooted to his line on set pieces.

Otherwise, we’re all good.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We struggle to put teams away when on top and still look very open to counter attacks. Vicario still looks rooted to his line on set pieces.

Otherwise, we’re all good.

Don’t think counter attacks are an issue myself
We have only faced a few per game and only one has resulted in a goal

Also Vicario has not looked as solid as he did first half of last season on set pieces… but again, no goals conceded from any so far

Not taking our chances is worry but we have also been playing without a striker

 

[Mikey10]

Don’t think counter attacks are an issue myself
We have only faced a few per game and only one has resulted in a goal

Also Vicario has not looked as solid as he did first half of last season on set pieces… but again, no goals conceded from any so far

Not taking our chances is worry but we have also been playing without a striker

We had two strikers on the pitch at different times against Leicester and couldn’t get the job done…

It’s only three games, for sure, but as I said, it’s the common threads that still seem to exist that are worrying.

Hopefully the next three or four games show there’s good progress being made. I’m hopeful we will get something against Arsenal at home; I could see us beating them if everything goes right.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Don’t think counter attacks are an issue myself
We have only faced a few per game and only one has resulted in a goal

Also Vicario has not looked as solid as he did first half of last season on set pieces… but again, no goals conceded from any so far

Not taking our chances is worry but we have also been playing without a striker

I’ve had many debates with you over the last 6 months or so about the quality of our forwards, the ones from last season btw, not Solanke and Odobert. You’ve argued we score plenty of goals which indicates they’re not a problem. But should we discount that completely and wipe the slate clean as you say last season is irrelevant? Should we discount the good things from last season as well as the things we need to work on?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We had two strikers on the pitch at different times against Leicester and couldn’t get the job done…

It’s only three games, for sure, but as I said, it’s the common threads that still seem to exist that are worrying.

Hopefully the next three or four games show there’s good progress being made. I’m hopeful we will get something against Arsenal at home; I could see us beating them if everything goes right.

Leicester would have been a win if Romero did what you teach a kid to do
Wouldn’t have mattered the other end. But also solanke was unlucky but picked up his injury in the game. Not sure when though. First game vibes and typical bad luck
Richy missed that sitter at the end with his head which was poor

We could do anything in the next games

Have to keep on playing the way they are coached and make sure no one does something basically stupid. At least concede a good goal

The common thread is a player switching off when they really, really shouldn’t