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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Its up to the coach to work with what hes got, no matter whether anyone else understands him, it's up to him to either a) work with the players until they understand or b) Change his system/simplify things to get the best from players who will never understand.
It doesn't matter how or why they do it, a football managers job is to prepare 11 people to go out on a pitch and win beat every team that is put in front of them (or at least get the best results possible for the ability of the players).
For the record, I don't think AVBs tactics were that overcomplicated, yes he seemed to employ a Mourinho method where players were drilled to do certain things in certain situations, but I don't think that should be too hard for any player to comprehend. My issue with his tactics was that they didn't suit the type of players at his disposal.
Its up to the coach to work with what hes got, no matter whether anyone else understands him, it's up to him to either a) work with the players until they understand or b) Change his system/simplify things to get the best from players who will never understand.
It doesn't matter how or why they do it, a football managers job is to prepare 11 people to go out on a pitch and win beat every team that is put in front of them (or at least get the best results possible for the ability of the players).
For the record, I don't think AVBs tactics were that overcomplicated, yes he seemed to employ a Mourinho method where players were drilled to do certain things in certain situations, but I don't think that should be too hard for any player to comprehend. My issue with his tactics was that they didn't suit the type of players at his disposal.
Rob
Peter Taylor
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
The "some people" were the people who booed him. We were there to support ledley and give him the send off he deserved, anything else could wait a day - we even sang songs to Howard Webb for Christs sake but we couldn't hold in our venom towards our own manager who ledley wanted to play.
What an ahole! Some people
The "some people" were the people who booed him. We were there to support ledley and give him the send off he deserved, anything else could wait a day - we even sang songs to Howard Webb for Christs sake but we couldn't hold in our venom towards our own manager who ledley wanted to play.
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
To put it in it's most basic terms, it's high pressure (with a lot of false pressing), keeping possession, rather than overloading the attack the tactic is to wait for the right moment and then pounce with the sudden forward movement of two or three players - say Walker and Paulinho together. It's also about conserving energy and using the ball to tire the opposition. There are usually tightly controlled drills in training to cover every problem and to increase ability where there are gaps.
I like all of that as an approach. I'd love to just go toe to toe with every team, but you need to be the better team to do that, and we can't afford to be the better team without a rich benefactor.
I think motivation is massively overrated in this country - two disorganised teams, one good and unmotivated, the other **** and motivated will create an even match. If the good team is organised, skilful and well-drilled they will usually still win.
I think AVB's downfall was firstly a lack of off-the-ball movement, IMO this has been a problem with our team since the early 90s. Barring the odd top player (Berbatov, Modric, Bale) our players are very static off the ball, and that doesn't sit at all well with a possession style. I don't know what is causing it or how to fix it (if I did I'd be throwing gilets around the touchline at WHL), but it's been a problem for a long time and AVB wasn't able to fix it in his short time here.
His other downfall was a lack of patience from the fans/club/media. In his first season I think the better long-term option was to try and set the team up to play in his image. Unfortunately, that would have meant almost certainly not making the CL and making it more likely Bale would leave. So the other option was to just get the most out of Bale, go for the CL and try to work in parts of the philosophy. After Bale left he was trying to integrate a new philosophy and a whole load of new players all at once - it just wasn't going to work in the short term
I think the players we have coupled with the style AVB wanted would have gone on to be pretty good. Replace a couple of our more expensive players with the ones AVB wanted (or players more similar in style to them) and I think we could have been very good indeed.
To put it in it's most basic terms, it's high pressure (with a lot of false pressing), keeping possession, rather than overloading the attack the tactic is to wait for the right moment and then pounce with the sudden forward movement of two or three players - say Walker and Paulinho together. It's also about conserving energy and using the ball to tire the opposition. There are usually tightly controlled drills in training to cover every problem and to increase ability where there are gaps.
I like all of that as an approach. I'd love to just go toe to toe with every team, but you need to be the better team to do that, and we can't afford to be the better team without a rich benefactor.
I think motivation is massively overrated in this country - two disorganised teams, one good and unmotivated, the other **** and motivated will create an even match. If the good team is organised, skilful and well-drilled they will usually still win.
I think AVB's downfall was firstly a lack of off-the-ball movement, IMO this has been a problem with our team since the early 90s. Barring the odd top player (Berbatov, Modric, Bale) our players are very static off the ball, and that doesn't sit at all well with a possession style. I don't know what is causing it or how to fix it (if I did I'd be throwing gilets around the touchline at WHL), but it's been a problem for a long time and AVB wasn't able to fix it in his short time here.
His other downfall was a lack of patience from the fans/club/media. In his first season I think the better long-term option was to try and set the team up to play in his image. Unfortunately, that would have meant almost certainly not making the CL and making it more likely Bale would leave. So the other option was to just get the most out of Bale, go for the CL and try to work in parts of the philosophy. After Bale left he was trying to integrate a new philosophy and a whole load of new players all at once - it just wasn't going to work in the short term
I think the players we have coupled with the style AVB wanted would have gone on to be pretty good. Replace a couple of our more expensive players with the ones AVB wanted (or players more similar in style to them) and I think we could have been very good indeed.
Rob
Peter Taylor
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Very true. Was disappointed in our fans for that one moment. Ledley wanted him to play and with the axe hanging over his head he still agreed, if he's got one quality then it's a massive set of brass ********!
Very true. Was disappointed in our fans for that one moment. Ledley wanted him to play and with the axe hanging over his head he still agreed, if he's got one quality then it's a massive set of brass ********!
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
I think at the top and the bottom of the league, you're right - the manager is there to win every game in turn.
For us, if we ever have aspirations of overcoming the (seemingly permanent) financial gap above us we need to do more than that. We need to plan for the long term and put in place systems and methods that will make us more than the sum of our parts. That will probably have a short term effect on results but it's worth it to take a shot at the top.
If you're Emirates Marketing Project you can afford to just play - the sum of your parts alone will beat most teams. If we're happy to hang around in 5th or 6th then we can do the same - I'm not happy to do that.
I think at the top and the bottom of the league, you're right - the manager is there to win every game in turn.
For us, if we ever have aspirations of overcoming the (seemingly permanent) financial gap above us we need to do more than that. We need to plan for the long term and put in place systems and methods that will make us more than the sum of our parts. That will probably have a short term effect on results but it's worth it to take a shot at the top.
If you're Emirates Marketing Project you can afford to just play - the sum of your parts alone will beat most teams. If we're happy to hang around in 5th or 6th then we can do the same - I'm not happy to do that.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Even whilst trying to make us more than the sum of our parts (which I agree with you on by the way) the managers job still has to be to prepare the team to go out and get the best possible result they can achieve on a Saturday. It's the fundamental part of the job. If he feels that during his planning for the long term that the results he can achieve will be lower, then he needs to make that expectation clear firstly to Daniel Levy, and secondly to the fans. But even with that being said, we can't afford results to drop off so badly that we end up going backwards.
We need someone who can maintain the 5th 6th maybe even 7th positions we currently deserve to be in, whilst pulling together a long term plan that will eventually see us in CL regularly.
Don't forget though, in order to get into the CL regularly you have to qualify at least once. We did that, and should have again but for some bad luck, then DL pulled it all apart and decided to start over again.
Even whilst trying to make us more than the sum of our parts (which I agree with you on by the way) the managers job still has to be to prepare the team to go out and get the best possible result they can achieve on a Saturday. It's the fundamental part of the job. If he feels that during his planning for the long term that the results he can achieve will be lower, then he needs to make that expectation clear firstly to Daniel Levy, and secondly to the fans. But even with that being said, we can't afford results to drop off so badly that we end up going backwards.
We need someone who can maintain the 5th 6th maybe even 7th positions we currently deserve to be in, whilst pulling together a long term plan that will eventually see us in CL regularly.
Don't forget though, in order to get into the CL regularly you have to qualify at least once. We did that, and should have again but for some bad luck, then DL pulled it all apart and decided to start over again.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Wow.... Interesting... I couldn't disagree with AVB's approach any more strongly. Even if we ignore the very important fact that final league positions can end up being decided on goal difference, large wins are very good for the confidence. Look at the amount of tonkings that the likes of City and Liverpool have dished out this season... why do their managers not feel that their players energy needs to be conserved? Also under Fergusson Man Utd would really go for the throat and if they had a team beaten then would look to really rub it in.
Also at 2-0 up you have never really won the game. If the opposition gets 1 goal back then it can become a bit of a backs to the wall scramble to get over the finishing line. Better to put the game away while on top and go 3 or 4 nill up and then the game really is over and key players can be subbed off to ensure they don't 'expend unnecessary energy'.
I guess this approach also goes some way to explaining how boring the football had got under AVB? I wonder what the philosophies of the potential new Spurs managers are?.... I think I'll throw my hat in for whichever one that has the exact opposite philosophy to AVB in this respect.
Wow.... Interesting... I couldn't disagree with AVB's approach any more strongly. Even if we ignore the very important fact that final league positions can end up being decided on goal difference, large wins are very good for the confidence. Look at the amount of tonkings that the likes of City and Liverpool have dished out this season... why do their managers not feel that their players energy needs to be conserved? Also under Fergusson Man Utd would really go for the throat and if they had a team beaten then would look to really rub it in.
Also at 2-0 up you have never really won the game. If the opposition gets 1 goal back then it can become a bit of a backs to the wall scramble to get over the finishing line. Better to put the game away while on top and go 3 or 4 nill up and then the game really is over and key players can be subbed off to ensure they don't 'expend unnecessary energy'.
I guess this approach also goes some way to explaining how boring the football had got under AVB? I wonder what the philosophies of the potential new Spurs managers are?.... I think I'll throw my hat in for whichever one that has the exact opposite philosophy to AVB in this respect.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Oops - I should've continued to read the thread before I posted my reply.... You sir, are obviously a true genius!
Oops - I should've continued to read the thread before I posted my reply.... You sir, are obviously a true genius!
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
The only talks will be around the size and the terms of his pay off.
The only talks will be around the size and the terms of his pay off.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
I think regarding his approach, you are correct. I think in all honesty AVB underplays the psychological aspects of football. He doesn't seem to see the benifit on team moral of hammering a team 6-0 or the age old saying of 'winning is a habit' which is very true. He almost acts like the team are a machine and if you program it right they will do exactly as is required by you.
I think in his ideal world once you are 2-0 up you literally never conceded a goal because the team is so good at keeping possession the other team never gets a sniff.
I totally agree with you that his philosophies lead to dull boring football. It's not something id want to see in the new manager either.
I think regarding his approach, you are correct. I think in all honesty AVB underplays the psychological aspects of football. He doesn't seem to see the benifit on team moral of hammering a team 6-0 or the age old saying of 'winning is a habit' which is very true. He almost acts like the team are a machine and if you program it right they will do exactly as is required by you.
I think in his ideal world once you are 2-0 up you literally never conceded a goal because the team is so good at keeping possession the other team never gets a sniff.
I totally agree with you that his philosophies lead to dull boring football. It's not something id want to see in the new manager either.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
My own thoughts are that AVB's tactics were not too complicated. In fact they weren't complicated at all, they were just not very good....
Defenders - push up the pitch to the half way line at every possible opportunity, irrespective of who we are playing and what pace they might have up front.
Wide players - always cut inside when given the ball to make things as congested as possible.
Midfielders - advance with the ball slowly, never try a 'risky' pass even if it might result in a scoring opportunity. Keep the ball at all times, end up camped just outside the oppositions penalty area and then give it to one wide players so that they can cut inside and have an impossible shot from outside the area.
Forwards - who cares.... You are only really there to get involved in the build up play.
Whole team - hope that the opposition don't win the ball off of you and launch a quick counter attack to expose the huge space that exists in behind you.
Goalkeeper - do the impossible job of defending that whole huge space mentioned above that the opposition are desperately trying to exploit on the counter attack.
My own thoughts are that AVB's tactics were not too complicated. In fact they weren't complicated at all, they were just not very good....
Defenders - push up the pitch to the half way line at every possible opportunity, irrespective of who we are playing and what pace they might have up front.
Wide players - always cut inside when given the ball to make things as congested as possible.
Midfielders - advance with the ball slowly, never try a 'risky' pass even if it might result in a scoring opportunity. Keep the ball at all times, end up camped just outside the oppositions penalty area and then give it to one wide players so that they can cut inside and have an impossible shot from outside the area.
Forwards - who cares.... You are only really there to get involved in the build up play.
Whole team - hope that the opposition don't win the ball off of you and launch a quick counter attack to expose the huge space that exists in behind you.
Goalkeeper - do the impossible job of defending that whole huge space mentioned above that the opposition are desperately trying to exploit on the counter attack.
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
So all very basic stuff, not particularly successful in an attacking sense without hulk/bale scoring worldies or at least threatening to do so - it doesn't work with tounsend.
Defensively the false pressing with a high line leaves you ridiculously exposed to the counter, something that cole brought up in an interview about Avbs time
barca at their best pressed fully for 10 secs or so then dropped back negating this to an extent, why didn't avb do the same
So all very basic stuff, not particularly successful in an attacking sense without hulk/bale scoring worldies or at least threatening to do so - it doesn't work with tounsend.
Defensively the false pressing with a high line leaves you ridiculously exposed to the counter, something that cole brought up in an interview about Avbs time
barca at their best pressed fully for 10 secs or so then dropped back negating this to an extent, why didn't avb do the same
jts1882
Dean Richards
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
I think there are two kinds of energy, physical and psychological. When a team has a good lead and is scoring for fun, the players can relax and it is not as psychologically tiring. When the game is tight until the end the play is more mentally draining and mistakes become more likely. This aspect is probably mixed with confidence. When in a good mental state it is easier to play when physically tired.
I think there are two kinds of energy, physical and psychological. When a team has a good lead and is scoring for fun, the players can relax and it is not as psychologically tiring. When the game is tight until the end the play is more mentally draining and mistakes become more likely. This aspect is probably mixed with confidence. When in a good mental state it is easier to play when physically tired.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Well spotted. You could argue that the AVB tactic book is incomplete rather than inherently wrong. Barca dropping into a defensive shape does happen, albeit rarely as the manic way they (used to) retrieve the ball after loosing possession was very successful.
The inverted winger letting loose a few long rangers is not a bad option but when it's your primary method of attack then it's pretty easy to defend against. As was mention above, it was our lack of movement around the box that was our real issue. How often was Soldado the only attacker in the box? No wonder he scored practically no goals. No matter how many runs you make if you are surrounded by a forest of defenders it is not going to work. Our lack of intelligent off the ball running in support of the striker was our biggest failing and it was componded by AVB's obsession with possession. High possession numbers has it's merits but every now and then you need to try an incisive pass.
Well spotted. You could argue that the AVB tactic book is incomplete rather than inherently wrong. Barca dropping into a defensive shape does happen, albeit rarely as the manic way they (used to) retrieve the ball after loosing possession was very successful.
The inverted winger letting loose a few long rangers is not a bad option but when it's your primary method of attack then it's pretty easy to defend against. As was mention above, it was our lack of movement around the box that was our real issue. How often was Soldado the only attacker in the box? No wonder he scored practically no goals. No matter how many runs you make if you are surrounded by a forest of defenders it is not going to work. Our lack of intelligent off the ball running in support of the striker was our biggest failing and it was componded by AVB's obsession with possession. High possession numbers has it's merits but every now and then you need to try an incisive pass.
Re: Tim Sherwood…not treated with the respect a headmaster is.
Barca at their best full-pressed long enough to convince their opponents that they wouldn't have any time on the ball then pressed with one whilst the others dropped. When their opponents started getting their heads up again, they'd start to full press for a few minutes.
Also known as false pressing.
That's precisely what AVB wanted Spurs to do (or at least it's what he believes is the way to play) - I don't think it's fair to criticise him that we weren't as good at is as Barca.
Edit:
And false pressing with a high line is a high risk strategy, but one that can be made to work. Bayern used it a lot last season to great effect.
Barca at their best full-pressed long enough to convince their opponents that they wouldn't have any time on the ball then pressed with one whilst the others dropped. When their opponents started getting their heads up again, they'd start to full press for a few minutes.
Also known as false pressing.
That's precisely what AVB wanted Spurs to do (or at least it's what he believes is the way to play) - I don't think it's fair to criticise him that we weren't as good at is as Barca.
Edit:
And false pressing with a high line is a high risk strategy, but one that can be made to work. Bayern used it a lot last season to great effect.