Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Rossi i was under the impression you was saying the managers role was over rated - ie that it wouldn't matter who was in charge because it's an over rated position, if that was the case we wouldn't see such a difference when managers come and go. If you're talking generally that some managers are over rated then of course, i agree - especially in England where we think anyone coming from abroad is superior

 

[Lost Mango]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Or you could argue that most matches are won or lost by the smallest of margins. One or two incidents in 90mins is often enough to change the outcome. In these cases the 15% (rather random number but lets roll with it) value add that the manager brings can easily be the difference.

But less likely to be the difference than the 85% contribution/impact of players performance.

And the 15% could be included in the amount that got us close to CL rather than seen as extra. Who knows?

Not sure where the study was or how the study quantified impact. The point from it was that there are much bigger/more significant impacts on a season's outcome than the manager.

 

[Lost Mango]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But we don't see massive differences with new managers. It has been shown that the new manager impact is fictitious on a meta-scale

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

only if you look at the 'average' across all clubs, which doesn't really help - the club aren't average and the manager appointed isn't the average - you're appointing one man in specific circumstances. the right manager will make the difference, just the same as the wrong manager will make the difference the other way. and a so-so manager will have you more or less where you should be.

also there are slim margins between failure/average/success - one or two extra points for us between managers would take us from so-so to success (the same the other way) not to mention a managers success (or worth) isn't entirely measure by league standing - as the differences in many peoples perception in the differences in AVBs 5th place season and Redknapp/Jols 5th place seasons - playing attacking football for some and finishing in the same position as a side playing 'tactical' football would be a much better scenario, for example - how do you measure that?

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But we don't see massive differences with new managers. It has been shown that the new manager impact is fictitious on a meta-scale

Call BS on that ..

- A manager can't turn a desperately **** squad into a title winning one
- but a manager can turn a **** side into one that can just escape relegation
- or a top 3 side into the title winners

you want to prove the argument

- Title winning side - SAF
- Mid table dross - Moyes

Same squad (actually with the addition of a 20M+ player), and while someone will argue, does anyone here really believe SAF's side would be 7th right now?

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Probably true.
But I believe that if he'd not won any of our PL games then such a...moderating comment would not be so forthcoming.
I think that a significant proportion of our fans are unhappy that the evidence so far before them does not match their beliefs about TS and so, rather than be willing to reassess their beliefs are just waiting for things to change. Until then, very minor, chippy and tangential digs get made.

Well put. I see it as some actually somehow wanting TS to fail to prove themselves right. Ridiculous, I know, but so are some of the comments that have been made after a handful of games. Far, far to early to judge him one way or the other. Lets get behind him and the team and see where the journey leads us.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Call BS on that ..

- A manager can't turn a desperately **** squad into a title winning one
- but a manager can turn a **** side into one that can just escape relegation
- or a top 3 side into the title winners

you want to prove the argument

- Title winning side - SAF
- Mid table dross - Moyes

Same squad (actually with the addition of a 20M+ player), and while someone will argue, does anyone here really believe SAF's side would be 7th right now?

no they wouldnt

i do think that form and confidence contribute to the problem at hand BUT no where near as much as it is the lack of SAF being there. SAF would have added an extra 10 to 15 points to this team just by being there

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But less likely to be the difference than the 85% contribution/impact of players performance.

And the 15% could be included in the amount that got us close to CL rather than seen as extra. Who knows?

Not sure where the study was or how the study quantified impact. The point from it was that there are much bigger/more significant impacts on a season's outcome than the manager.

I can't figure that line out but ignoring the maths for a moment, I think we are not arguing the same thing here. Obviously the 85% trumps the 15%. Better players equals a better team more or less.

I guess the point I was making is that all things being equal, players, fitness, etc the manager and his team really are the difference maker. The manager is really the point of the pyramid and there are a myriad of other inputs which affect team performance beyond just words of wisdom from the main man. Alex F gets lauded for his managerial skills and rightly so but he always had a top number two to do his coaching work for him. Add in all the other coaches and what not that come with the appointment of a new manager and the impact on a team of a change at the helm can be absolutely dramatic to a clubs performance.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well put. I see it as some actually somehow wanting TS to fail to prove themselves right. Ridiculous, I know, but so are some of the comments that have been made after a handful of games. Far, far to early to judge him one way or the other. Lets get behind him and the team and see where the journey leads us.

you keep banging this drum Pirate but i don't really see many giving off this vibe any more

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But less likely to be the difference than the 85% contribution/impact of players performance.

And the 15% could be included in the amount that got us close to CL rather than seen as extra. Who knows?

Not sure where the study was or how the study quantified impact. The point from it was that there are much bigger/more significant impacts on a season's outcome than the manager.

I don't think many people would disagree on that.

But long term teams won't succeed without a good manager. Getting those right players in does take a good manager/DoF.

But we don't see massive differences with new managers. It has been shown that the new manager impact is fictitious on a meta-scale

On average this seems to be true. This only said something about the new manager effect though, doesn't say anything about the difference in quality between managers.

Call BS on that ..

- A manager can't turn a desperately **** squad into a title winning one
- but a manager can turn a **** side into one that can just escape relegation
- or a top 3 side into the title winners

you want to prove the argument

- Title winning side - SAF
- Mid table dross - Moyes

Same squad (actually with the addition of a 20M+ player), and while someone will argue, does anyone here really believe SAF's side would be 7th right now?

Yes, but this says nothing about the "new manager effect". What the study mentioned by Lost Mango actually said something about.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think the end of the season is the very minimum. Even then, we'd have to take into account that when he took over we were pretty close to our best points haul ever.

The end of next season will give us some kind of idea where we're going (as long as important players don't leave this summer).

That's all with the caveat that's always there for all players and managers, that if there's a better option available it should be taken.

Thank you. So let's give him some time and stop the sniping in the meantime, eh?

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

you keep banging this drum Pirate but i don't really see many giving off this vibeany more

Those are the key words. Just wait for a poor performance or result though. Lets see. I hope you are right.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

it's funny, i don't recall you being as supportive when AVB was put in charge

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Those are the key words. Just wait for a poor performance or result though. Lets see. I hope you are right.

this

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

id suggest you both might want to wait until that happens before pre judging posters or their motives then

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree that it is too early to judge Sherwood's management of the first team. I also agree that at the end of this season and through next year will be a better time to form a more rounded opinion on his abilities.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So what happens if we finish 4th this season with less points than we achieved last season? Does that mean we have 'regressed' under Sherwood? It will be interesting to see the reaction if we finish 5th again and get a record points haul.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think we have some hungry quality players who are fresh at a good time of the season.

few days left of transfers though........hope Capoue doesnt go but we will see....we do need people to fight to be in the shirt and not move on at the first opportunity though!

In regards to playing a DM read the OMT...I will be disapointed if he doesnt play Sandro or Capoue against Emirates Marketing Project....I think reverting back to 4-4-2 for this game would be a mistake. Of course for all I know we will match them up 4-4-2 and win.....

The proof will be in the pudding though......and if we do somehow manage a win..... I look forward to seeing the......'we only beat city because we had 10 days rest and they didnt' posts.

Yeah basically we alway beat Emirates Marketing Project so we should do them at the Lane again this time around despite them pasting everyone left, right and centre and generally being a lot better than us.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So what happens if we finish 4th this season with less points than we achieved last season? Does that mean we have 'regressed' under Sherwood? It will be interesting to see the reaction if we finish 5th again and get a record points haul.

CL qualification is the goal - he achieves that great. If we miss out but better last seasons record points haul then, much like AVB, it would suggest we done a good job at pushing those above us to the end and would be unlucky to have missed out - a good sign of progression in a managers first (half) season

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So what happens if we finish 4th this season with less points than we achieved last season? Does that mean we have 'regressed' under Sherwood? It will be interesting to see the reaction if we finish 5th again and get a record points haul.

I think finishing fourth or above in a league this open would be a massive achievement regardless of the points total