Three In And Three Out, Who Will It Be?

[Pirate55]

It is always the right time to bring in young players with potential.

Dier this summer, along with the 3 academy lads. Seems like very good business. Something we should keep up.

You can overload a squad with "promising youngsters" . We need some proven quality in that mix. Our so called senior players have consistently failed to provide any consistency alongside which the youngsters can flourish. Ade, Soldado, Paulinho, Kaboul have all failed us miserably in this respect.

 

[braineclipse]

You can overload a squad with "promising youngsters" . We need some proven quality in that mix. Our so called senior players have consistently failed to provide any consistency alongside which the youngsters can flourish. Ade, Soldado, Paulinho, Kaboul have all failed us miserably in this respect.

Sure. I agree that either a couple of experienced players in, or some of our settled players have to play like seasoned pros. A handful of them starting to do just that mind. Ben Davies, Eriksen and Bentaleb for example. All playing as if much older and more experienced than they actually are.

My point was more that just because one or two more experienced players would be good we shouldn't stop looking for the younger talents that might take a couple of years to come good. If there's any truth in our Rabiot interest that might be just such a signing and it seems like a good idea to me.

Established, experienced strikers that are good enough at our level are notoriously difficult to find and sign. If instead we can sign someone younger that can take some of the load off Kane's shoulders whilst accepting that they might not fully blossom for a couple of years I still think that's a solid approach.

 

[Pirate55]

I'd not be at all unhappy if we didn't sign anyone for the starting 11 for even the next two windows

My thinking on priorities at the moment is:
1) A versatile forward to provide cover for Chadli at LWF and as a 3rd CF
2) A 4th quick-transitioning CM to complement NB, RM and BS
3) A 4th CB to complement FF, JV and ED

So yes - it's basically giving Poch options for his system to make good that, for footballing and non-footballing reasons, a good 6-9 players just don't fit any more.

I most certainly would be very unhappy if we didn't sign any players in the next two windows. You have identified weaknesses in the squad. We also have weaknesses in the team. We are a long way from the finished article. One or two quality signings in key positions would make a lot of difference.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I mostly agree with you other than on your first point. If we lose Kane then our team is seriously in trouble in terms of goals from the centre forward position (unless Pochettino can somehow get Adebayor firing again?).... We desparately need to replace Soldado as second choice CF (or even bring in a first choice CF and revert Kane to the number 10 position) If we end up doing this in the summer then so be it, but we cannot go past then with only a single decent number 9 option at the club.

I still think it is the perfect time to bring Berahino in. I think he and Kane could be the perfect partnership up front. He is the right age, has the right quality and, while we might have to pay £4 or £5 million over the odds for him now, it would guarantee securing him, strengthen us for the run in and we could also offer a few player sales/loans to WBA as a sweetener.

For your other two positions it would seem to me that we could probably get Delph and Moreno this January for decent fees due to their contract situations. Capoue and Naughton/Chiriches out would probably result in a transfer profit as well as improving the squad.

I still rate Soldado and think he offers a lot. Kane's (and Chadli's) form has made him undropable at the moment, but I think Soldado was doing well a few weeks ago.

Kane has also given us a problem in who is now going to want to come in and be his back-up? Someone like Bony or Benteke won't. So we need to go for either end of the age spectrum - an old hand like Lambert, or a kid like (insert random 19yo Argentinean). I don't think either of them are especially likely to be any more effective than Soldado.

I still really want us to go for Rodriguez. I know he's a few weeks off fitness, but he's exactly what we need - someone fully capable at both LWF and CF, with some much needed pace and directness. That would leave us 4 players for 2 positions, which is ideal really, and he'd get much more game time across the two positions than an out-and-out 3rd CF.

I really not that keen on Berahino. He just reminds me of a typical pace-but-no-intelligence English forward from the 00s (Defoe, Bent etc). His off-pitch problems are also a real concern, especially now we know how ruthless Poch is about stuff like that.

My ideal signings now would be as many of Rodriguez, Moreno and Rabiot (I think Delph smells like a Levy deal rather than a Baldini/Mitchell one) as we can get, and in fact we could probably get all 3 for not much over £20m.

 

[braineclipse]

I most certainly would be very unhappy if we didn't sign any players in the next two windows. You have identified weaknesses in the squad. We also have weaknesses in the team. We are a long way from the finished article. One or two quality signings in key positions would make a lot of difference.

Agreed. We're relying way too much on too many individual players. Players that are young and inexperienced to boot.

Fairly confident about Vorm, Vlad/Yedlin, Davies/Rose and Lamela/Townsend doing at least reasonably well if called upon. But the drop down in quality from Fazio, Verts, Bentaleb, Mason, Chadli, Kane and Eriksen to their backups is just much too great for comfort. It's ok relying one one or two star players, most teams do. But when you're relying on 7-8 players to be fit not to experience a massive drop in quality it's not acceptable long term.

Here's to hoping that Stambouli and Dembele continue playing well and prove me wrong about including Mason and Stambouli in that list at least.

 

[braineclipse]

I mostly agree with you other than on your first point. If we lose Kane then our team is seriously in trouble in terms of goals from the centre forward position (unless Pochettino can somehow get Adebayor firing again?).... We desparately need to replace Soldado as second choice CF (or even bring in a first choice CF and revert Kane to the number 10 position) If we end up doing this in the summer then so be it, but we cannot go past then with only a single decent number 9 option at the club.

I still think it is the perfect time to bring Berahino in. I think he and Kane could be the perfect partnership up front. He is the right age, has the right quality and, while we might have to pay £4 or £5 million over the odds for him now, it would guarantee securing him, strengthen us for the run in and we could also offer a few player sales/loans to WBA as a sweetener.

For your other two positions it would seem to me that we could probably get Delph and Moreno this January for decent fees due to their contract situations. Capoue and Naughton/Chiriches out would probably result in a transfer profit as well as improving the squad.

You seem like just about the only poster on here that's so entirely convinced by Berahino. Mind expanding a bit on why you feel so confident? How many games have you watched him in? What are the standout qualities that makes you think guaranteeing his signature would be so perfect for the club? What about the reported potential attitude problems, why do they not worry you? What about the fact that he's yet to score much more than 20 senior goals (only 13 senior league goals). What makes you so sure he'll be consistent over time and not just a flash in the pan? Particularly considering he's been rather inconsistent with those goals already...

 

[Gutter Boy]

You can overload a squad with "promising youngsters" . We need some proven quality in that mix. Our so called senior players have consistently failed to provide any consistency alongside which the youngsters can flourish. Ade, Soldado, Paulinho, Kaboul have all failed us miserably in this respect.

I don't know - the classic Ajax model is to only have 1 or 2 old hands. And in Lloris, Vorm, Verts, Fazio and Soldado, we have an experienced core who all appear to be good pros/characters (even Verts now he has cheered up again).

Our academy graduates all seem quite resilient too - they certainly don't seem to get phased or need excessive support.

I most certainly would be very unhappy if we didn't sign any players in the next two windows. You have identified weaknesses in the squad. We also have weaknesses in the team. We are a long way from the finished article. One or two quality signings in key positions would make a lot of difference.

I think all the pieces are pretty much in place. I think if Poch has those 3 players (he obviously wants Moreno, Rodriguez and Schneiderlin, but Rabiot might have to be Schneiderlin's temporary or permanent plan b), the only thing he needs is time for them to grow together.

The thing we then need to look at is the production line. E.g we know that in our next set of academy graduates we particularly have Veljkovic (CB), Winks (CM), Pritchard (AM), Onomah (AM) and Oduwa (WF). But we don't have a highly rated CF coming through. So Baldini and Mitchell need to be concentrating scouring the globe to find the next Kane or two

 

[braineclipse]

I don't know - the classic Ajax model is to only have 1 or 2 old hands. And in Lloris, Vorm, Verts, Fazio and Soldado, we have an experienced core who all appear to be good pros/characters (even Verts now he has cheered up again).

Our academy graduates all seem quite resilient too - they certainly don't seem to get phased or need excessive support.




I think all the pieces are pretty much in place. I think if Poch has those 3 players (he obviously wants Moreno, Rodriguez and Schneiderlin, but Rabiot might have to be Schneiderlin's temporary or permanent plan b), the only thing he needs is time for them to grow together.

The thing we then need to look at is the production line. E.g we know that in our next set of academy graduates we particularly have Veljkovic (CB), Winks (CM), Pritchard (AM), Onomah (AM) and Oduwa (WF). But we don't have a highly rated CF coming through. So Baldini and Mitchell need to be concentrating scouring the globe to find the next Kane or two

So what you're saying is that if we sign those 3 players (Moreno, Rodriguez and Schneiderlin) or equivalents over the next two windows you'll be fine with that and no more business apart from perhaps a young striker or two? You seemed to be saying that you would be fine with no incoming at all.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So what you're saying is that if we sign those 3 players (Moreno, Rodriguez and Schneiderlin) or equivalents over the next two windows you'll be fine with that and no more business apart from perhaps a young striker or two? You seemed to be saying that you would be fine with no incoming at all.

Absolutely


Lloris/Vorm

Walker/Yedlin
Verts/Dier
Moreno/Fazio
Davies/Rose

Bentaleb/Stambouli
Schneiderlin/Mason

Lamela/Townsend
Eriksen/Carroll
Chadli/Rodriguez

Kane/Soldado


Being replenished by Veljkovic, Winks, Pritchard, Onomah, Oduwa etc. would do me till the new stadium opens.


Edit: sorry, missed the key part of your question. I said I'd be happy if we signed no players who would immediately go into the starting line-up. A 4th CB, a 4th CM and a versatile forward. So Moreno would come in to compete with Verts and Fazio - not easy as they are playing so well. Rabiot would probably start 4th choice CM behind Stambouli; and Rodriguez would need to get his fitness back and then fight to oust Chadli.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I still rate Soldado and think he offers a lot. Kane's (and Chadli's) form has made him undropable at the moment, but I think Soldado was doing well a few weeks ago.

Kane has also given us a problem in who is now going to want to come in and be his back-up? Someone like Bony or Benteke won't. So we need to go for either end of the age spectrum - an old hand like Lambert, or a kid like (insert random 19yo Argentinean). I don't think either of them are especially likely to be any more effective than Soldado.

I still really want us to go for Rodriguez. I know he's a few weeks off fitness, but he's exactly what we need - someone fully capable at both LWF and CF, with some much needed pace and directness. That would leave us 4 players for 2 positions, which is ideal really, and he'd get much more game time across the two positions than an out-and-out 3rd CF.

I really not that keen on Berahino. He just reminds me of a typical pace-but-no-intelligence English forward from the 00s (Defoe, Bent etc). His off-pitch problems are also a real concern, especially now we know how ruthless Poch is about stuff like that.

My ideal signings now would be as many of Rodriguez, Moreno and Rabiot (I think Delph smells like a Levy deal rather than a Baldini/Mitchell one) as we can get, and in fact we could probably get all 3 for not much over £20m.

If that is what you feel about Berahinho then I question whether you have really properly watched him?.... He is not a player that is all about pace at all. Yes he is pretty quick, but not so quick that he can rely on this only. He has two feet, workrate, strength, movement and a brilliant touch. I think he could play as number 9 or as a wing forward on either side.

 

[milo]

Personally, I would love to see an experienced player come in as part of the January recruitment. I have felt for a while that the team has lacked character and whilst this has looked less of a problem of late, there will be tougher challenges ahead.

 

[Gutter Boy]

If that is what you feel about Berahinho then I question whether you have really properly watched him?.... He is not a player that is all about pace at all. Yes he is pretty quick, but not so quick that he can rely on this only. He has two feet, workrate, strength, movement and a brilliant touch. I think he could play as number 9 or as a wing forward on either side.

I've not seen tons of him, but he has tended to really frustrate me in the bits I've seen of him.

I maybe do though have a bit of a prejudice against small strikers who aren't obviously smart (cf say vdV, Keane, Soldado etc.). I blame a decade of Defoe (and Bent)

Personally, I would love to see an experienced player come in as part of the January recruitment. I have felt for a while that the team has lacked character and whilst this has looked less of a problem of late, there will be tougher challenges ahead.

I don't think I agree any more. We've shown more steel and resilience this season than I remember in a long time.

I think we've got a great blend of leaders (Lloris, Verts), organisers (Fazio, Stambouli), experienced pros (Soldado, Vorm, Lennon) and young players with really obvious leadership traits (Bentaleb, Mason, Kane).

One of the great things Poch seems to have done is create a unified (core) group, with a common purpose, obedient to him.

Under freer/more chaotic setup having good things rub off experienced players (e.g. Gudjohnsen, Nelsen) was great. But under a far more structured setup like Poch's, bringing in new influential actors might actually be quite detrimental.

I think that's why Poch wants Moreno - because he's a really strong leader who he knows completely gets what he is trying to do

 

[Finney Is Back]

I've not seen tons of him, but he has tended to really frustrate me in the bits I've seen of him.

I maybe do though have a bit of a prejudice against small strikers who aren't obviously smart (cf say vdV, Keane, Soldado etc.). I blame a decade of Defoe (and Bent)

I don't think I agree any more. We've shown more steel and resilience this season than I remember in a long time.

I think we've got a great blend of leaders (Lloris, Verts), organisers (Fazio, Stambouli), experienced pros (Soldado, Vorm, Lennon) and young players with really obvious leadership traits (Bentaleb, Mason, Kane).

One of the great things Poch seems to have done is create a unified (core) group, with a common purpose, obedient to him.

Under freer/more chaotic setup having good things rub off experienced players (e.g. Gudjohnsen, Nelsen) was great. But under a far more structured setup like Poch's, bringing in new influential actors might actually be quite detrimental.

I think that's why Poch wants Moreno - because he's a really strong leader who he knows completely gets what he is trying to do

Berahino isn't small.... He is 5'11" so a reasonable size. Big enough to not be bullied by centre halves, but compact enough to be quick off the mark. Two of the players you mention above were typical number 10s really (Keane and VDV) although Keane was good enough to also be able to play as the number 9. Also I don't really understand what it is that you see in Soldado that makes you like him? He is (at best) an average number 9 in his hold up play and intelligence and a well below average finisher I think. Above you seem to compare Soldado favourably to Defoe?.... but I would have Defoe in the team ahead of Soldado every time (especially Defoe at his peak). One of the things that I liked most about Defoe was his confidence, he could miss three chances in a row and he'd still put himself there to try for the fourth one. This contrasts with Soldado who I have seen avoiding putting himself in a position to score (or should I say miss) where balls are flashed across the box and he has held himself back instead of trying to get in front of the defender.

Of the 3 experienced pros you name - I don't think Vorm is actually that experienced is he?.... and it looks as though the club want to move on both Lennon and Soldado (if they can get anyone to pay the money for them). The only area where I think we could possibly use a bit of experience is central midfield but I don't think we could attract and afford the wages of a real top experienced central midfield player so we might as well continue with talented, hungry, young players.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Berahino isn't small.... He is 5'11" so a reasonable size. Big enough to not be bullied by centre halves, but compact enough to be quick off the mark. Two of the players you mention above were typical number 10s really (Keane and VDV) although Keane was good enough to also be able to play as the number 9. Also I don't really understand what it is that you see in Soldado that makes you like him? He is (at best) an average number 9 in his hold up play and intelligence and a well below average finisher I think. Above you seem to compare Soldado favourably to Defoe?.... but I would have Defoe in the team ahead of Soldado every time (especially Defoe at his peak).

Of the 3 experienced pros you name - I don't think Vorm is actually that experienced is he?.... and it looks as though the club want to move on both Lennon and Soldado (if they can get anyone to pay the money for them). The only area where I think we could possibly use a bit of experience is central midfield but I don't think we could attract and afford the wages of a real top experienced central midfield player so we might as well continue with talented, hungry, young players.

I don't think Keane was ever a #10, though it was a misconception that persisted through his career. Berbatov always used to be the deeper one of the two.

I actually think Keane and Soldado are pretty similar. Primarily goalscorers, but with the movement and linkup play to be the complete package. Neither were #9s per se because they we're big, but then I don't think high-possession sides especially need that much hold-up play.

For me the thing Soldado has on a completely different level to Defoe is intelligent movement. Defoe's shift and shooting had its moments, but Soldado can actually play with and enhance his teammates. I also think Soldado is a better finisher than Defoe (though his confidence is still impeding this).

Vorm has been to 2 WCs and a Euros and played under managers like LvG, Hiddink and van Marwijk. He's also by 3 years our oldest player (excluding Friedel and Ade, who don't seem actively involved). Those are fairly significant in a squad with an average age of about 23.

 

[diego_maradona]

Personally, I would love to see an experienced player come in as part of the January recruitment. I have felt for a while that the team has lacked character and whilst this has looked less of a problem of late, there will be tougher challenges ahead.

Mate that was before Harry Kane. Harry Kane is the answer to all of our problems. He is the saviour. Embrace him.

 

[milo]

I've not seen tons of him, but he has tended to really frustrate me in the bits I've seen of him.

I maybe do though have a bit of a prejudice against small strikers who aren't obviously smart (cf say vdV, Keane, Soldado etc.). I blame a decade of Defoe (and Bent)




I don't think I agree any more. We've shown more steel and resilience this season than I remember in a long time.

I think we've got a great blend of leaders (Lloris, Verts), organisers (Fazio, Stambouli), experienced pros (Soldado, Vorm, Lennon) and young players with really obvious leadership traits (Bentaleb, Mason, Kane).

One of the great things Poch seems to have done is create a unified (core) group, with a common purpose, obedient to him.

Under freer/more chaotic setup having good things rub off experienced players (e.g. Gudjohnsen, Nelsen) was great. But under a far more structured setup like Poch's, bringing in new influential actors might actually be quite detrimental.

I think that's why Poch wants Moreno - because he's a really strong leader who he knows completely gets what he is trying to do

I think that if we are talking about primarily promoting from the development squad and signing players to complement this then experience will be one of the things we will be looking to bring in. Fazio fits the bill perfectly with this.

I wouldn't want to go over board with this but one or two wise heads to help guide the youngsters and pull us through the bad patches would be a real benefit I think.

Of the players you mention, how many other than Lloris really fit the bill? There are question marks over Verts mentality when things don't go our way. Soldado, Vorm and Lennon might be experienced but do not play very often. Stambouli talks a good game but we have not seen first hand how he reacts under pressure.

 

[Pirate55]

Mate that was before Harry Kane. Harry Kane is the answer to all of our problems. He is the saviour. Embrace him.

He is not our saviour. He is a very naughty boy!!!He is on a great run of form but without him we are really thin up front. Personally, I would like to see Kane paired with Benteke. His best position to my mind is running at defenders not playing with his back to goal. With a beast to take all the pressure off him, I think he could really blossom.

 

[Pirate55]

Personally, I would love to see an experienced player come in as part of the January recruitment. I have felt for a while that the team has lacked character and whilst this has looked less of a problem of late, there will be tougher challenges ahead.

Exactly this.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think Keane was ever a #10, though it was a misconception that persisted through his career. Berbatov always used to be the deeper one of the two.

I actually think Keane and Soldado are pretty similar. Primarily goalscorers, but with the movement and linkup play to be the complete package. Neither were #9s per se because they we're big, but then I don't think high-possession sides especially need that much hold-up play.

For me the thing Soldado has on a completely different level to Defoe is intelligent movement. Defoe's shift and shooting had its moments, but Soldado can actually play with and enhance his teammates. I also think Soldado is a better finisher than Defoe (though his confidence is still impeding this).

Vorm has been to 2 WCs and a Euros and played under managers like LvG, Hiddink and van Marwijk. He's also by 3 years our oldest player (excluding Friedel and Ade, who don't seem actively involved). Those are fairly significant in a squad with an average age of about 23.

I think Keane was 10 times the player Soldado is. It is an insult to label Keane and his 90 odd goals for us alongside Soldado.

While Defoe was nowhere near as good as Keane was I think it is also an insult to Defoe and his 90 odd goals for us to label Soldado as anything other than considerably worse than him.

I also still fail to see what 'intelligent movement' Soldado offers.

Perhaps my viewpoint differs from yours because I can't profess to have really seen him play for Valencia? but on the evidence I have seen at Spurs he is simply a below average striker in all aspects of the game.

 

[Andyandy]

Agreed. We're relying way too much on too many individual players. Players that are young and inexperienced to boot.

Fairly confident about Vorm, Vlad/Yedlin, Davies/Rose and Lamela/Townsend doing at least reasonably well if called upon. But the drop down in quality from Fazio, Verts, Bentaleb, Mason, Chadli, Kane and Eriksen to their backups is just much too great for comfort. It's ok relying one one or two star players, most teams do. But when you're relying on 7-8 players to be fit not to experience a massive drop in quality it's not acceptable long term.

Here's to hoping that Stambouli and Dembele continue playing well and prove me wrong about including Mason and Stambouli in that list at least.

I wouldn't agree to say that we rely on individual players any more than any other team. In fact it's the best it's been since Redknapp left!

The mood and confidence around the club has really started to lift since the Stoke defeat, I wonder how some of those reserve players will perform with some confidence in them.