Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Rafa87]

Im completely on the fence. Id love him to step up and show some metal. But another anodyne performance or two and i'll be fully Poch in. Its right in the balance for him now, and statements like this matter

I agree, I’m open to either ending as much as I’d love him to work it out. We should be higher than where we are, but equally I don’t think we have the tools to be as high as we wish. I think any manager we have could do with a few transfer windows tbh, I guess it’s up to the club (and Frank as well) as to if that’s going to be him.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Yeah see I usually enjoy your posts as they seem reasonable and balanced and understanding. It’s just a personal thing, I wouldn’t refer to Frank as the ‘guy from Brentford’ in the same way I didn’t refer to Pochettino as “the guy from Southampton”. I just think that phrase says a lot, you can not like the way things are looking without saying things like that about the guy who manages the club. Is he the right fit? Who knows, not me after 18 games.

The context of the EL win is that it was the first year without Champions league teams dropping into it. The best team we played were Galatasaray who could have put 7 at least past us, luckily we played them at the time we did. The best ‘on paper’ teams were either United or Frankfurt depending on how you view Frankfurts recent EL success against United’s history I guess.

Whenever you point out the EL run we had people say you didn’t enjoy it, or that you’re playing it down. I’m not, I LOVED our EL win, it’s the best night in the time I’ve supported the club. I just however also appreciate the nuance of the competition we won and use that to evaluate this current team. Would they have been capable of winning it with CL teams in it? Who knows. You can only beat who’s in front of you, and Ange got us over the line, so all the credit to him for that, he ended that trophy drought.

I’m chuffed to bits that we won it, but I don’t think it suddenly means we suddenly have a brilliant champions league level team. I think Frank has been very accurate in saying that we aren’t at that top four or five level - and let’s also give a bit of responsibility to the players here, if they don’t like that he said it, rather than crying into their bank notes about the mean ‘man from Brentford’ they could always prove him wrong couldn’t they, look at their league form over the last year or two - these world beaters of Europe have basically been in close to relegation form for a lot of it.

I’m neither completely for Frank nor against him. I think this team should be higher than it is, but I also appreciate what he’s working with and I’m not going to use the sticks that defended Ange to beat Frank. I’ll see where he is after 38 games, and go from there and I’ll show the bloke a bit of respect for even trying until he’s told he isn’t doing it anymore.

I have made every effort to defend Frank, and try and articulate what I think he is aiming for, why I myself am not over reacting to results too soon and what I think we might see by season’s end. It’s not me actually saying he’s the guy from Brentford, I’m trying to articulate what some players might think of these sorts of statements. Maybe they don’t, maybe they appreciate the pressure reduction, but I agree with the point made that this hits different than a Jose or a Conte saying it. And if Poch came in talking down the club in a similar way, I’d make the same point.

I take your point on the EL not having CL drop outs. But either we’re favourites to win, in which case we have a good squad. Or we weren’t favourites, and it’s a huge achievement. This is why I don’t like the ‘we finished 17th’ line. Because the suggestion is that these players weren’t performing, rather than dealing with an unprecedented injury crisis and putting their bodies through hard times so they can say they brought this club a trophy. Sticking together and putting the club’s ambition above their own to do that. Talking that down I think is poor.

 

[Legohamster]

I made the mistake of checking Twitter and reaction to his comments

I was semi shocked that the vast majority were outraged and wanted him gone now.

Im starting to think there is no point keeping him on now, I don't think his position is recoverable.

Even if we win a few, the next bad run we will be back in this position.

 

[harr1984]

I made the mistake of checking Twitter and reaction to his comments

I was semi shocked that the vast majority were outraged and wanted him gone now.

Im starting to think there is no point keeping him on now, I don't think his position is recoverable.

Even if we win a few, the next bad run we will be back in this position.

I don't go on Twitter but it always seems like this place is a lot more reasoned/thoughtful/less reactive than that place.

Having heard a few comments on various social media outlets Spurs related it does feel like the tide has already turned on Frank sadly. What I would say is that whilst results eventually will almost always be the deciding factor in a managers' fate, having a decent brand of football is always going to buy you more time. With what has been served up for most of the season he has done himself no favours in that respect, so he was always likely to be under fan pressure when we are sitting where we are in the league. I'd be shocked if he doesn't get the season though....

 

[Rafa87]

I have made every effort to defend Frank, and try and articulate what I think he is aiming for, why I myself am not over reacting to results too soon and what I think we might see by season’s end. It’s not me actually saying he’s the guy from Brentford, I’m trying to articulate what some players might think of these sorts of statements. Maybe they don’t, maybe they appreciate the pressure reduction, but I agree with the point made that this hits different than a Jose or a Conte saying it. And if Poch came in talking down the club in a similar way, I’d make the same point.

I take your point on the EL not having CL drop outs. But either we’re favourites to win, in which case we have a good squad. Or we weren’t favourites, and it’s a huge achievement. This is why I don’t like the ‘we finished 17th’ line. Because the suggestion is that these players weren’t performing, rather than dealing with an unprecedented injury crisis and putting their bodies through hard times so they can say they brought this club a trophy. Sticking together and putting the club’s ambition above their own to do that. Talking that down I think is poor.

Ok, so that’s fair and that’s your view, and I can be open to other views.

Let me suggest a third option, which of course you don’t have to agree with.

For the EL we were favourites to win, so we must have been at some level a half decent side to be deemed as such. However to me, the nuance of it is that with no other Chanpions league teams in there we could be favourites because the level of competition we had in the competition was actually much closer to our general level. Simply out of you had, I don’t know, a few more Inters, a Milan, perhaps a Chelsea or just someone of this level, I don’t think we would have been favourites. I think our reputation if you like is as being ‘nearly men’ and as such people don’t expect us to win things so the fact we were favourites felt more to me as a “even Spurs should be winning this”.

I think it was a view built on the competition we faced. I don’t think we had an easy ‘just turn up’ type run, we can only beat who is in front of us, and look, any competition you still have to get it over the line, so we absolutely deserved it. I just think I agree with you in the sense we were favourites, but I think that’s because the competition had lots of teams who were all in our ball park of generally decent but not fantastic squads. This is why I think we’ve managed to win it, but still not have a fantastic squad.

By all means, feel free to not agree, it’s a forum after all, I’m not trying to be narky, I just think there’s more nuance than the two options you suggest I.e favourites, so good squad, or massive achievement.

I think we’re an average squad, who played a Europa League campaign, against many other fairly average squads, but actually winning it with our trophy history, for us still makes it a massive achievement in our terms.

 

[clownfoot]

I’ve not watched the press conference but does anyone know what question he was asked to answer how he did? Context could be very important

Refreshingly honest imo, I think the players need to be reminded that they are not as good as they think they are.

Isn’t one of the selling points about Frank that he gets the best out of the collective rather than the individuals? So even if the players aren’t as good as they think he should be getting a song out of them.

I’m still holding on to the hope that it’s just a longer adjustment than anticipated and we’ll soon start seeing a better brand of football, not to mention we start winning games a lot more regularly. But each passing week that hope is fading

 

[Legohamster]

I don't go on Twitter but it always seems like this place is a lot more reasoned/thoughtful/less reactive than that place.

Having heard a few comments on various social media outlets Spurs related it does feel like the tide has already turned on Frank sadly. What I would say is that whilst results eventually will almost always be the deciding factor in a managers' fate, having a decent brand of football is always going to buy you more time. With what has been served up for most of the season he has done himself no favours in that respect, so he was always likely to be under fan pressure when we are sitting where we are in the league. I'd be shocked if he doesn't get the season though....

People who I would consider more patient are calling from him to go now.

I agree on the brand of football, but I think whoever comes in now will have the same ideals to try and get the best of of his available options.

I don't know which manager would touch us with a barge pole at the moment.

Maybe Glasner? He's not signing a new deal and if you offer him a now or never ultimatum? But his football is Frank-esq (read somewhere they have one of the lowest possession numbers in Europe)

Whole things a mess

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I agree with you that if he was 6th or 7th he wouldn’t be saying it. And I think whether it’s fair comes down to whether you think last season was a true reflection of the quality of the squad or whether it was an aberration.

I learn on the side of it being an aberration. Because either the Europa win is a HUUUUUGE achievement to win it despite having the 17th best squad in the league. Or it’s a good achievement to win because we were favourites, but can only beat what’s in front of us.

If we were clear favourites, then the squad can’t be that bad. If we’re the 17th best side in the league, then it’s one of the biggest achievements of all time.

Or......we were always one of the (bookies) favourites to win it. And when one of the favourites to win it do nothing else but focus on the 5 games to win it, and then achieve that, then all they become is a team that excellently executed getting thru 5 games.

That doesn't tell you much about the squad quality, the system we played (as we had bespoked it) or anything about our league position, as we crammed our season into such a small sample size.

When you think of it, it is a massive outlier of an approach.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Or......we were always one of the (bookies) favourites to win it. And when one of the favourites to win it do nothing else but focus on the 5 games to win it, and then achieve that, then all they become is a team that excellently executed getting thru 5 games.

That doesn't tell you much about the squad quality, the system we played (as we had bespoked it) or anything about our league position, as we crammed our season into such a small sample size.

When you think of it, it is a massive outlier of an approach.

Why are we favourites in the first place? Surely that tells us something about squad quality?

 

[Kane]

I made the mistake of checking Twitter and reaction to his comments

I was semi shocked that the vast majority were outraged and wanted him gone now.

Well, its one thing to moan and complain, and quite another to be constructive and come up with solutions.

In amongst their outrage, did they say who they wanted if he does go now?

 

[Bishop]

Spurs fans love to brick on their own club, it's been so for a long time, some narrative comes along, they hop on board.

Jose/Conte a few others who never take accountability for brick do this, for a guy who this is a step up in his career to basically say we are not good enough while his previous club who appointed a set piece coach with zero experience is ahead of us on the table is a bit much.

Many top players have said it, never give a player/team an excuse not to perform, they will take it all day long.

His only answer needs to be, it's my job to fix it, it's my job to keep pushing us up the table (if you want to leave it to interpretation how high up the table, that's fine). But to ask if a club that has been in CL multiple times in last decade, been to a CL final, won a Europa league, wtf do you think our side is mate?

You're stuck in the past. We aren't a Champion League calibre side right now.

The guy from Brentford is telling a squad of players that have played and won at a higher level than he has managed that they aren’t actually a CL club. I think it’s a relevant and fair phrase to be honest.

What do you mean by the context of the EL win?

Whether he's managed at that level previously or not is kind of irrelevant, he's managing at that level this year and can see what is needed. Hell I've not managed at that level and I can see we are not a 2025 CL calibre side, so why would it be difficult for Frank to see it too?

 

[thfcsteff]

Didn't Mopo call for a painful rebuild whilst struggling? Was that small thinking?

No. He actually said we were in for a painful rebuild at the very start of May 2019, weeks before the Champions League Final we were in thanks to him and his side. The context was totally different.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Ok, so that’s fair and that’s your view, and I can be open to other views.

Let me suggest a third option, which of course you don’t have to agree with.

For the EL we were favourites to win, so we must have been at some level a half decent side to be deemed as such. However to me, the nuance of it is that with no other Chanpions league teams in there we could be favourites because the level of competition we had in the competition was actually much closer to our general level. Simply out of you had, I don’t know, a few more Inters, a Milan, perhaps a Chelsea or just someone of this level, I don’t think we would have been favourites. I think our reputation if you like is as being ‘nearly men’ and as such people don’t expect us to win things so the fact we were favourites felt more to me as a “even Spurs should be winning this”.

I think it was a view built on the competition we faced. I don’t think we had an easy ‘just turn up’ type run, we can only beat who is in front of us, and look, any competition you still have to get it over the line, so we absolutely deserved it. I just think I agree with you in the sense we were favourites, but I think that’s because the competition had lots of teams who were all in our ball park of generally decent but not fantastic squads. This is why I think we’ve managed to win it, but still not have a fantastic squad.

By all means, feel free to not agree, it’s a forum after all, I’m not trying to be narky, I just think there’s more nuance than the two options you suggest I.e favourites, so good squad, or massive achievement.

I think we’re an average squad, who played a Europa League campaign, against many other fairly average squads, but actually winning it with our trophy history, for us still makes it a massive achievement in our terms.

Again, I totally take your point on that we might have been one of a group of decent but not great sides.

In the context of this discussion, we’re talking about Frank saying we finished 17th last season. To be one of the EL favourites, or to be THE favourite, suggests that we weren’t the 17th best PL squad. I’d agree that we weren’t PL title contenders either. But it’s a squad that finished 5th the season before, and is now much deeper.

So what is Frank getting at? That he couldn’t possibly be expected to even be top 5, because we finished 17th last season? Even though we were favourites to win a competiton that we qualified for by finishing 5th the season before…he’s basically arguing that last season did such damage to the club that it’s now going to take this monumental effort to recover. Rather than the league position being an aberration and a trophy win being gained by fighting through exceptional circumstances.

 

[Bishop]

Why are we favourites in the first place? Surely that tells us something about squad quality?

It tells you more about the quality of the competition then it does about squad quality. It wasn't a super high level, there were no elite sides in it and no sides really on the rise that you sometimes see.

You can be the best team in the EL and still be a 8-12th best team in a the PL/La Liga in most seasons.

It is an achievement to win it, but it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Why are we favourites in the first place? Surely that tells us something about squad quality?

I think thats already been answered. If you lay out the teams at the start, and with no CL drop ins to muddy the market , we are in the bunch of favourites just on name size.

Anyway ...It wasn't the point I was making tbh.

 

[harr1984]

People who I would consider more patient are calling from him to go now.

I agree on the brand of football, but I think whoever comes in now will have the same ideals to try and get the best of of his available options.

I don't know which manager would touch us with a barge pole at the moment.

Maybe Glasner? He's not signing a new deal and if you offer him a now or never ultimatum? But his football is Frank-esq (read somewhere they have one of the lowest possession numbers in Europe)

Whole things a mess

Yeah for me Glasner was always the pick. But I would say someone now who I was always dead against returning and that's Poch. Feels to me like had the battle is with the fans and the whole club, he's likely the best man for the job.

But this is just another reason why I'd wait until the end of the season to make a decision - will have a better picture of how Frank has fared, and who else is available if we do want to go down yet another different route....

 

[thfcsteff]

Actually find it quite strange how a lot of people here are reading this and thinking seemingly ‘yes! This is what we want to hear!’.

I think it’s the sort of thing top managers actually do, in that they defend their position, they deflect, and they put their narrative out there. So I get why he’s doing it.

I don’t really like it though. We were 5th the season before. We then won a European trophy despite an unprecedented injury crisis. We also have a much deeper squad than last season or the season before.

Maybe the players appreciate this sort of comment to take the pressure off of them and give them the time to really grasp what he wants. But maybe they’re also a bit wondering why the massive achievement that they carried out last year, forged through the bond of facing unprecedented circumstances, is now being talked down? I would honestly be surprised that the best players in our squad feel good about the guy from Brentford telling them that they aren’t actually at a CL club.

The Europa win gave the club the chance to push on. We did something amazing and got it out of a season that could have completely disintegrated. That the club feels like it isn’t pushing on is not down to anyone but the person currently in the seat.

What I would accept or find ok is Frank saying something like ‘I have an idea and a way of playing, and we’re at the start of a cycle, so there’s understandable ups and downs but the players are doing everything they can.’ Making out like everything that came before was luck, or naive, or whatever else, like he is coming in to fix and save everything…it just doesn’t sit right.

People have short memories mate.
Here’s what he said when he arrived…

“Huge congratulations to the Club, to the team (for the Europa League triumph). Huge congratulations to Ange (Postecoglu) - I think Ange has done something special. He’ll forever be a legend in Tottenham…it’s important to understand we all stand on the shoulders of others. I’m going in on the foundation Ange built, and his coaching staff, and I’m very humble about that. I’ll do my very best to continue the great work he put in. The feeling, the exceitement, the joy and the happiness in the fans’ faces, the pictures - was ‘wow’. Hopefully, we can create more of those moments. That will be the ultimate dream: to do that and build on that.”

A tad different to the Sky stuff.
I think some of the excuses being given for this guy’s latest ‘dumbing down’ of us in the public space are staggering.
He is clearly in self-defence mode. I cannot abide this sort of stuff from a manager.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

It tells you more about the quality of the competition then it does about squad quality. It wasn't a super high level, there were no elite sides in it and no sides really on the rise that you sometimes see.

You can be the best team in the EL and still be a 8-12th best team in a the PL/La Liga in most seasons.

It is an achievement to win it, but it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

But that still doesn’t compute with ‘we finished 17th last season’.

If he’s using that league finish as a justification for where we’re actually at, rather than the fact we were favourites to win a European competition that we qualified for by finishing 5th, then I’d say he’s being very selective.

I can totally accept there were no CL sides. I can accept we were favourites. But if we’re favourites for that competition we have to also accept that finishing 17th wasn’t a true indication of where the squad actually was. And therefore it’s not really useful for determining how well Frank should be doing right now.

As I’ve said, if he made the argument that he’s at the start of a cycle, and so some inconsistency is to be expected, I have sympathy with that all day long. But he’s making the argument that the club was the fourth worst in the division, which I think is nonsense.

 

[Bishop]

Yeah for me Glasner was always the pick. But I would say someone now who I was always dead against returning and that's Poch. Feels to me like had the battle is with the fans and the whole club, he's likely the best man for the job.

But this is just another reason why I'd wait until the end of the season to make a decision - will have a better picture of how Frank has fared, and who else is available if we do want to go down yet another different route....

I hope whoever we get next is a fans favourite so that we just bypass the whole "he's not to the level required" conundrum. At least then we can just look at the quality of the players we have and address all their failings without all the extra brick. At the moment too many people are focused on the failings of the coach and not accepting the problems this squad has. I'm just hopefully when we get the next guy everyone can get onto the same page.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

People have short memories mate.
Here’s what he said when he arrived…

“Huge congratulations to the Club, to the team (for the Europa League triumph). Huge congratulations to Ange (Postecoglu) - I think Ange has done something special. He’ll forever be a legend in Tottenham…it’s important to understand we all stand on the shoulders of others. I’m going in on the foundation Ange built, and his coaching staff, and I’m very humble about that. I’ll do my very best to continue the great work he put in. The feeling, the exceitement, the joy and the happiness in the fans’ faces, the pictures - was ‘wow’. Hopefully, we can create more of those moments. That will be the ultimate dream: to do that and build on that.”

A tad different to the Sky stuff.
I think some of the excuses being given for this guy’s latest ‘dumbing down’ of us in the public space are staggering.
He is clearly in self-defence mode. I cannot abide this sort of stuff from a manager.

Yikes. I had completely forgotten that quote from when he came in. Very interesting to see how the tune is changed.