The Y word

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You're soooooo cool man, lets just call everyone clams.

This is exactly what Im saying. Context and intent.

Nigey knows no offence is intended at all, he knows its a greeting and not an insult, and so it doesnt hurt his feelings.

I am very sure there are different circumstances where the opposite would be entirely true.

 

[benp]

I suppose for me, it boils down to is it useful anymore.

We started calling ourselves Yids in part to keep ourselves safe and protect vulnerable members of our community. Does chanting still do that, and is it still required? I think until there is a zero tolerance attitude across the league, applied consistently to other fans, it probably does and is.

I think it's something we will always have to look at and try to balance, but while the other fans still attack us we will need to protect ourselves. If it's not useful, it's not worth offending people over and it can stop with my blessing

Sent from my GM1910 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Can it not have evolved?

Can it not now be a term understood to identify Spurs fans as a collective, without the explicit Jewish connotation?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Can it not have evolved?

Can it not now be a term understood to identify Spurs fans as a collective, without the explicit Jewish connotation?

It could. And it is already used that way by some people (not necessarily Spurs fans) in ad-hoc situations.
But if that is “all” it means now - a collective noun to describe Spurs fans - then we can’t expect others not to use it in songs and jeers about us and that should be OK as long as they are not being racist.
But of course when that happens, it becomes more difficult to distinguish the ‘banter’ use of yid from the racist/offensive use of the term. And thus we go full circle.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Not really. Again, context and intent really are key.

And thats not to say thats "all" it means. Many words have dual meanings. And - once again - how they are used is what tells you what they mean.

 

[elltrev]

Not really. Again, context and intent really are key.

And thats not to say thats "all" it means. Many words have dual meanings. And - once again - how they are used is what tells you what they mean.

Speaking as a non-Jewish person (and more broadly as a white, middle-class, heterosexual, English man), personally I've come to accept that I can never fully understand what it feels like to be persecuted for some part of my identity, and therefore that I also can’t fully understand what it feels like to hear particular words that have historically been used to persecute (e.g. yid), even if they’re now being used in a different and more positive way (as they are among Spurs fans).

So in the end my simple position is that if a majority of Jewish Spurs fans want us to stop using the term, we should. If a majority of Jewish Spurs fans don’t want us to stop using it, then we shouldn’t. Maybe it's controversial, but I don't think non-Spurs Jews or non-Jewish Spurs fans should sway the decision much at all.

(Even though on a personal level I'd be gutted to stop using the term, because for me it is 100% associated with being a Spurs fan and virtually 0% associated with being Jewish - and for some reason I love the term and the songs that go with it).

The 'nigga' example is also interesting - rightly or wrongly, my understanding is that the majority of black people aren't comfortable with a white person using the term at all.

 

[Nigeyman]

You're soooooo cool man, lets just call everyone clams.

Actions are more offensive than words. Dunno why so many get go round the twist over mere words uttered, I suppose the next step will be getting people to stop even thinking the words.

People feel safer and safer behind a screen and will say whatever they like in this day and age anyway.

don’t think that’s right but there you go.

The word won’t go away by people wanting it made taboo, your best hope is it dies out of its own accord, over the passage of time anyway, and that’s unlikely as opposition fans label us so all the time as an identification for being a spurs fan.

Christmas time though, bound to be some snowflakes about.

 

[Nigeyman]

Speaking as a non-Jewish person (and more broadly as a white middle-class heterosexual English man), personally I've come to accept that I can just never fully understand what it feels like to be persecuted for some part of my identity, and therefore that I also can’t fully understand what it feels like to hear particular words that have historically been used to persecute (e.g. yid), even if they’re now being used in a different and more positive way (as they are among Spurs fans).

So in the end my simple position is that if a majority of Jewish Spurs fans want us to stop using the term, we should. If a majority of Jewish Spurs fans don’t want us to stop using it, then we shouldn’t. Maybe it's controversial, but I don't think non-Spurs Jews or non-Jewish Spurs fans should sway the decision much much at all.

(Even though on a personal level I'd be gutted to stop using the term, because for me it is 400% associated with being a Spurs fan and almost 0% associated with being Jewish - and for some reason I love the term and the songs that go with it).

The 'nigga' example is also interesting - rightly or wrongly, my understanding is that the majority of black people aren't comfortable with a white person using the term at all.

No generally if a white person utters the n word what follows is a sharp intake of breath.

yet the word is used constantly by the black community.

Seen a white person getting offended when the term was used by two black guys and they couldn’t stop laughing for nearly 10 mins.

it’s a funny old world.

 

[Bullet]

But if that is “all” it means now - a collective noun to describe Spurs fans - then we can’t expect others not to use it in songs and jeers about us and that should be OK as long as they are not being racist.
But of course when that happens, it becomes more difficult to distinguish the ‘banter’ use of yid from the racist/offensive use of the term. And thus we go full circle.

That is a good point. Liverpool are proud to be Scousers, a Spurs fan might then call them a bunch of fackin Scouse C***s, not meant in a praising way. Or they might use it in a positive way like 'those Scouse fans are mental'.



Similarly Glaswegians like Billy Connolly or Kevin Bridges... or many Australians... would happily say to their friends "Look at you clams sitting there" or they might say "some other clam probably did it" and clam isn't meant offensively. So context is everything; if one has a brain, one can determine and gloss over or decide to take offence.

 

[elltrev]

Actions are more offensive than words. Dunno why so many get go round the twist over mere words uttered, I suppose the next step will be getting people to stop even thinking the words.

People feel safer and safer behind a screen and will say whatever they like in this day and age anyway.

don’t think that’s right but there you go.

The word won’t go away by people wanting it made taboo, your best hope is it dies out of its own accord, over the passage of time anyway, and that’s unlikely as opposition fans label us so all the time as an identification for being a spurs fan.

Christmas time though, bound to be some snowflakes about.

Looks from your photo like you’re a fellow white man? (Apologies if I’m mistaken). See my post above - I just don’t think we can fully empathise with the power that certain words have. E.g. if you have family members who were gassed to death in the holocaust simply for being Jewish, and not long after you were called ‘filthy yid’ or something on multiple occasions in your everyday life, I can understand why that word could be just as psychologically and emotionally damaging as any action. And I think that’s what the term ‘offensive’ really means - psychologically and emotionally damaging.

I think the term ‘snowflake’ is also thrown around too easily, especially by people like you and me who haven’t really been persecuted for their identity (apologies again if I’ve made incorrect assumptions about your identity based on your photo).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The 'nigga' example is also interesting - rightly or wrongly, my understanding is that the majority of black people aren't comfortable with a white person using the term at all.

This is EXACTLY my point.

Black person to black person 'nigga' is about solidarity, its a greeting, its affectionate. No offence intended or received.

White person to black person 'nigga' is at best rather misguided, at worst an awful, hateful term - and basically always ill advised. Offence certainly taken.

Yid? In the stadium, among Spurs fans, using the term as a collective, inclusive, communal term - is entirely different to out in the world.

Its exactly like above.

 

[elltrev]

This is EXACTLY my point.

Black person to black person 'nigga' is about solidarity, its a greeting, its affectionate. No offence intended or received.

White person to black person 'nigga' is at best rather misguided, at worst an awful, hateful term - and basically always ill advised. Offence certainly taken.

Yid? In the stadium, among Spurs fans, using the term as a collective, inclusive, communal term - is entirely different to out in the world.

Its exactly like above.

I wouldn’t say it’s exactly like the ‘nigga’ example at all, because in the Spurs contest it’s loads of non-Jewish people using the word - precisely the thing that black people feel uncomfortable with.

(Though I recognise the two examples aren’t directly comparable either way, because ‘nigga’ doesn’t have an additional affiliation beyond ethnicity like ‘yid’ does for Spurs).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I wouldn’t say it’s exactly like the ‘nigga’ example at all, because in the Spurs contest it’s loads of non-Jewish people using the word - precisely the thing that black people feel uncomfortable with.

(Though I recognise the two examples aren’t directly comparable either way, because ‘nigga’ doesn’t have an additional affiliation beyond ethnicity like ‘yid’ does for Spurs).

The hang up is the Jewishness of Yid though.

Define the word for me, in the context of the stadium - singing "Yid Army" - does that have ANYTHING to do with Jews for you?

Ill take a wild punt and say "no". Its a "Spurs" term in that context and nothing to do with race or religion.

If its tribal, its about the community of Spurs fans, inclusive of any Jews present, and thats it.

This is the whole point for me. Context and intent are vitally important - which is precisely what I was trying to raise in the comparison to 'nigga'

 

[StephenH]

Its just a football chant! If it offends for what every reason, then just call it a day.
Its really no biggy.

 

[elltrev]

The hang up is the Jewishness of Yid though.

Define the word for me, in the context of the stadium - singing "Yid Army" - does that have ANYTHING to do with Jews for you?

Ill take a wild punt and say "no". Its a "Spurs" term in that context and nothing to do with race or religion.

If its tribal, its about the community of Spurs fans, inclusive of any Jews present, and thats it.

This is the whole point for me. Context and intent are vitally important - which is precisely what I was trying to raise in the comparison to 'nigga'

It doesn't really for me, no. But I'm a 35 year old non-Jewish person. I'm sure it does have something to do with Jews for Jewish and/or older Spurs fans, which is exactly what the club survey shows.

So with all due respect, I think you're being a little ecogentric in your take on this. I totally get your 'context' point, and totally agree with it as a general principle, but I guess my take is that Jewish Spurs fans' feelings about the use of the word should override everyone else's (because they are fully aware of that context and more aware of the impact that the term has on Jewish people within that context).

And I'd argue it's just objectively incorrect to say that the word has nothing to do with race or religion, given that to begin with in the Spurs context it was 100% related to Jewishness, and in the not-too-distant past.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It doesn't really for me, no. But I'm a 35 year old non-Jewish person. I'm sure it does have something to do with Jews for Jewish and/or older Spurs fans, which is exactly what the club survey shows.

So with all due respect, I think you're being a little ecogentric in your take on this. I totally get your 'context' point, and totally agree with it as a general principle, but I guess my take is that Jewish Spurs fans' feelings about the use of the word should override everyone else's (because they are fully aware of that context and more aware of the impact that the term has on Jewish people within that context).

And I'd argue it's just objectively incorrect to say that the word has nothing to do with race or religion, given that to begin with in the Spurs context it was 400% related to Jewishness, and in the not-too-distant past.

Its nothing to do with my ego.

Its about simple logic.

Words alone have no power. How they are used is what empowers them.

The same word can be entirely negative, or entirely positive depending on its use.

It is inherently neither one nor the other by default.

Objectively, the word is nothing to do with Jewish people for many. Its become - by definition - a 'Spurs' thing, even if its roots were related to the Jewish part of our community. Its evolved. Its a by-word for us as fans, as a collective.

The Survey seemed to me to be poorly worded (they always are) and missing a key question. Id love to have seen them ask fans what "Yid" means to them. I think it could be an eye opener.

And while I respect that Im not Jewish, and it can be a bit of a trigger word for a Jew, I also think that doesnt over ride the point on intent and context.

Within WHL its a completely different thing to elsewhere. That really shouldnt be ignored.

 

[elltrev]

Its nothing to do with my ego.

Its about simple logic.

Words alone have no power. How they are used is what empowers them.

The same word can be entirely negative, or entirely positive depending on its use.

It is inherently neither one nor the other by default.

Objectively, the word is nothing to do with Jewish people for many. Its become - by definition - a 'Spurs' thing, even if its roots were related to the Jewish part of our community. Its evolved. Its a by-word for us as fans, as a collective.

The Survey seemed to me to be poorly worded (they always are) and missing a key question. Id love to have seen them ask fans what "Yid" means to them. I think it could be an eye opener.

And while I respect that Im not Jewish, and it can be a bit of a trigger word for a Jew, I also think that doesnt over ride the point on intent and context.

Within WHL its a completely different thing to elsewhere. That really shouldnt be ignored.

I think we seem to be going in circles at this point - I totally agree with your point about the important of context, so sorry if that hasn't been clear. My main point is simply that Jewish Spurs fans' views on how offensive the word 'yid' is when used in that context is more important and relevant than non-Jewish Spurs fans' (including me and you). (Of course I appreciate that different individual Jewish Spurs fans will have different views, and that's why I think it's important to take into account the views of as big a sample as possible).

And sorry I didn't mean egocentric in that respect - I meant 'centred in or arising from a person's own individual existence or perspective' (taken from Google definition) And I didn't mean it as an attack - indeed maybe it was the wrong choice of word - it just seemed like you were implying that your view is as important and relevant as Jewish Spurs fans' views, in which case I disagree.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think we seem to be going in circles at this point - I totally agree with your point about the important of context, so sorry if that hasn't been clear. My main point is simply that Jewish Spurs fans' views on how offensive the word 'yid' is in that context is more important and relevant than non-Jewish Spurs fans' (including me and you). (Of course I appreciate that different individual Jewish Spurs fans will have different views, and that's why I think it's important to get the views of as big a sample as possible).

And sorry I didn't mean egocentric in that respect - I meant 'centred in or arising from a person's own individual existence or perspective' (taken from Google definition) And I didn't mean it as an attack - indeed maybe it was the wrong choice of word - it just seemed like you were implying that your view is as important and relevant as Jewish Spurs fans' views, in which case I disagree.

I certainly didnt take it that way, no need to apologise.

I think it gets complex, and enters into territory where people get rather sensitive, so I think Id be happy to leave things as they stand.

 

[elltrev]

I certainly didnt take it that way, no need to apologise.

I think it gets complex, and enters into territory where people get rather sensitive, so I think Id be happy to leave things as they stand.

Fair enough. For what it's worth I don't feel at all personally sensitive about the topic!

 

[elltrev]

I would also just add: the survey results seem to me to give a pretty clear indication that the club and fans shouldn't stop using the word 'yid' (based on my views above):

- 'Among Jewish respondents, 42% answered that they would like to see a change, with [only] 26% favouring that fans stop using it and 16% preferring fans to chant it less'.