The trigger for our down-turn?

[billyiddo]

Ok..
So he and no say in transfers then?

I didn't say that, I said i think he grew disgruntled with our transfer approach and not part of the decision making process - saying to ask Levy when asked about transfers and that he should change his title to coach as that's all he is are not the words of someone happy with the process and whilst I'm sure he was able to offer up names of players he'd like and would have had some opportunity to run the rule over names put forward by the committee i don't think he felt as much a part of that process as he shpuld have been - a manager happy with his involvement does not say the things he said sinple as that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I didn't say that, I said i think he grew disgruntled with our transfer approach and not part of the decision making process - saying to ask Levy when asked about transfers and that he should change his title to coach as that's all he is are not the words of someone happy with the process and whilst I'm sure he was able to offer up names of players he'd like and would have had some opportunity to run the rule over names put forward by the committee i don't think he felt as much a part of that process as he shpuld have been - a manager happy with his involvement does not say the things he said sinple as that.

Wasn’t that the same time he signed the new long contract

 

[thfcsteff]

That fudging book.

I agree, it was (for me) his one major misstep. I did not understand why he had done it at the time, and I still don't. Perhaps as a favor to Ballague? Regardless, it was a very poor decision indeed. I read it once, felt dirty and gave it away.

 

[billyiddo]

Wasn’t that the same town he signed the new long contract

Huh?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Huh?

Sorry same time he signed signed the new mega contract ?

 

[billyiddo]

Sorry same time he signed signed the new mega contract ?

Yeah?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think people have covered most of it. Trying to tie it all together in detail:

16/17, Poch’s third season, was our peak. We finished second on 86 points, and in the second half of the season actually got 47 points (which would equal 94 points across a whole season). We were undefeated at WHL. We were on fire. We just needed a little boost to take us over the line. Instead:

17/18
- Had to move to Wembley
- Sold Walker and replaced him with Aurier
- Permanently lost Wanyama and still haven’t replaced him
> Went backwards 1 position and 9 points

18/19
- Unexpectedly had almost another entire season at Wembley
- Also lost Dembele
- Bought NO-ONE
> Went backwards another position and another 6 points

19/20
- Bought Ndombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon, but all had injury and fitness issues
- Initially didn’t sell or give new contracts to Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, Toby or Jan (all of whom we know for sure wanted to leave and/or were in the last year of their contract)
- Had lost and performed badly in the CL final, after an incredible and emotional run to get there

So I think a combination of our squad getting worse, our manager and squad having been together for a long time, three years of backward momentum, and having come so close but just missing out on PL title and CL (and to some extent domestic cups) - it all finally coalesced this season, and now we’re still in the depressive funk of the hangover.

I think it is 400% crystal clear that the stadium build is the root cause of all of this. What I don’t know is whether it’s close to 400% to blame, or whether Levy and co could have done anything differently in the financial circumstances e.g. successfully replaced Wanyama and/or Dembele in summer of 18/19. Will probably never know for sure. (And to be clear I’m not saying the stadium was a bad decision at the time - just that in hindsight it might actually have been counterproductive!)

For comparison, Liverpool finished 8th, 4th and 4th in Klopp’s first three seasons. Then in contrast to us they spent big on Van Dijk, Alisson and Fabinho, and that was the spark they needed to be CL and PL winners by two years later. Actually makes me feel quite depressed.

So Liverpool gave Klopp 3 seasons... and also doubled the wages and of course spent mega money to get ahead of us

I also read today that united spent £220m so far under Ole To improve the team Jose left that actually won them some trophies

So money and time matter, who would have thought it

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah?

Just checking
Just I remember a disgruntled Poch making some negative comments.... then shortly after signing a mega contract and being happy Poch and manager again

 

[El Guepardo]

Or we couldn’t be sure that we’d get value from from the spend and decided not to risk it.

We’ve been very good at structuring deals to avoid throwing money away, even when players don’t work out or are sold in the last years of their contract we tend to make profit on the books for most deals.

See, I’d understand this BUT...you’re telling me that there were NO players that we could have signed during that period. Even if to accept a marginal value loss on the players, there are definitely players that we could have signed to improve the squad. As it was, we were running on empty for far too long.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

See, I’d understand this BUT...you’re telling me that there were NO players that we could have signed during that period. Even if to accept a marginal value loss on the players, there are definitely players that we could have signed to improve the squad. As it was, we were running on empty for far too long.

Maybe we just didn’t have the money at that point.
We don’t know in reality as fans
We all know levy loves a deal

 

[Baleforce]

See, I’d understand this BUT...you’re telling me that there were NO players that we could have signed during that period. Even if to accept a marginal value loss on the players, there are definitely players that we could have signed to improve the squad. As it was, we were running on empty for far too long.

I don't know, but I can easily believe that "there were NO players that we could have signed during that period" for an acceptable fee that the transfer committee could agree on.

 

[milo]

I did not understand why he had done it at the time, and I still don't.

I think that his ego got the better of him

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree, it was (for me) his one major misstep. I did not understand why he had done it at the time, and I still don't. Perhaps as a favor to Ballague? Regardless, it was a very poor decision indeed. I read it once, felt dirty and gave it away.

I think he just was asked and went with it

 

[Rorschach]

This is a good thread.

For me there are a confluence of reasons why we climbed almost to the top of the pile, and similarly more than one reason why we are in decline now. Most of those have already been covered.

To add to the discussion I would also add that Poch did not learn one of SAFs greatest lessons. That is the coaching team needs to be refreshed periodically too. You can buy into a coaching philosophy for so long but it looses it's power over you after a while. You need fresh voices and/or fresh ears and we had neither.

Our failure to win something, even a smaller trophy, compounded the other problems. Winning anything changes the mindset and would have prolonged our time at the sharp end, IMO.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is a good thread.

For me there are a confluence of reasons why we climbed almost to the top of the pile, and similarly more than one reason why we are in decline now. Most of those have already been covered.

To add to the discussion I would also add that Poch did not learn one of SAFs greatest lessons. That is that coaching team needs to be refreshed periodically too. You can buy into a coaching philosophy for so long but it looses it's power over you after a while. You need fresh voices and/or fresh ears and we had neither.

Our failure to win something, even a smaller trophy, compounded the other problems. Winning anything changes the mindset and would have prolonged our time at the sharp end, IMO.

I called it the icarus moment to my mates and they were stumped
But we progressed so much under Poch the fall was always going to be hard

 

[Spur of the moment]

I don’t see the comments about job title relating to transfers no
And the guy signing the cheques at every club has final say. That’s quite normal isn’t it?

My understanding of it is that a manager has a strong say in comings and goings. Think Fergie, for example. Whereas a coach has much less of a say. He may express an opinion but by and large is expected to deal with the squad he's provided with.

Poch had clearly become unhappy with the way transfers were being handled. Think Jack Clarke. Ipso facto he felt he was no longer a manager, but back to being a coach.

Levy has previous with this kind of issue. Seems like it's usually a precursor to a parting of the ways.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

My understanding of it is that a manager has a strong say in comings and goings. Think Fergie, for example. Whereas a coach has much less of a say. He may express an opinion but by and large is expected to deal with the squad he's provided with.

Poch had clearly become unhappy with the way transfers were being handled. Think Jack Clarke. Ipso facto he felt he was no longer a manager, but back to being a coach.

Levy has previous with this kind of issue. Seems like it's usually a precursor to a parting of the ways.

The jack Clarke has be is this season

 

[treepits]

Yesterday was pretty wretched but is this thread a bit of an over-reaction? And a down-turn from when? When we reached a CL final just over a year ago? When we MASSIVELY overachieved and finished 2nd? When we were absolutely embarrassing during most of the 90s and 2000s? When we were winning the double in 1961? Our level when compared to others wage/transfer budget/ size of club is probably 5th-6th (thats being generous) so yes, we're having a poor season with a few probable reasons for that but we're not alone in having a poor season. Someone mentioned above that in Klopp's first season at Liverpool, they finished 8th, by their standards thats an awful season but look at them now. Let's not turn into a certain neighbours TV station and spunk off every time we win and start demanding answers when we lose

 

[Mulletperm]

Yesterday was pretty wretched but is this thread a bit of an over-reaction? And a down-turn from when? When we reached a CL final just over a year ago? When we MASSIVELY overachieved and finished 2nd? When we were absolutely embarrassing during most of the 90s and 2000s? When we were winning the double in 1961? Our level when compared to others wage/transfer budget/ size of club is probably 5th-6th (thats being generous) so yes, we're having a poor season with a few probable reasons for that but we're not alone in having a poor season. Someone mentioned above that in Klopp's first season at Liverpool, they finished 8th, by their standards thats an awful season but look at them now. Let's not turn into a certain neighbours TV station and spunk off every time we win and start demanding answers when we lose

No not an over-reaction. Our form has been woeful since the beginning of 2019.

 

[Spur of the moment]

The jack Clarke has be is this season

?