The Nu-Mour-Conts Era

[braineclipse]

Interesting post as ever mate, I wonder if Steff agrees with your understanding of his points.

Absolutely agree on the relative success of Ange and there are different expectations given the circumstances of the club.

I don't think anyone could argue that we've made progress in terms of a league position (8th to 4th) but also played a style of football that is more what most would consider what we want from a Spurs team. I'm also in favour of signing younger players moving forwards (but also not a fan of the preloaded excuse of "well they're going players what can we expect" if everything falls to brick season after season).

What I will say as I hope I'm not coming off as a bit snipey (not a real word in English but hope it makes sense) to Steff as it may seem like I'm trying to use his words against him. It's easy to sit there listening to someone providing content week in week out and cherry pick details you don't agree with / that may conflict with something said that stood out from literally over a year ago.

Despite it being a relatively good season including bringing the fan base on board I'm feeling rather disconnected with the club and possibly disillusioned, whether it's misplaced entitlement it's not for me to say. But watching Utd lift the FA Cup having had 5 below average seasons and their fans described as "going through such a hard time", it was a bit of a sickener. Plus if I were to have a trip down to London, get some beers in, match ticket and accommodation I think that would genuinely amount to what I have to live on for a month. So instead I'm watching bricky streams if we're not on telly which just isn't actually fun or rewarding. Plus, call me a pessimistic but I just think the glass ceiling is there, if you'd have spoken to the 18 year old me blown away by Redknapp's teams and said "this is as good as it's going to get, the odd CL qualification" I wouldn't have stopped supporting but however you look at it, it's disappointing. So where Steff (can't @ him for some reason) is possibly more geared towards positivity I'm just a bit more negatively inclined / jaded I guess? It's not all about winning obviously, but we definitely don't deserve to have won anything either (imo of course). Do I truly think that Ange is the man to change us in to an actual top level team? I just think he'll make it a bit more bearable to watch for the most part, maybe to some that'll sound miserable or entitled as if I think I (or the fan base as a whole) deserve more, I appreciate nothing is promised.

Making out like Ange has reinvented the wheel whilst discrediting former managers who did better initially seems off. Continho is a great portmanteau btw mate, not sure if you came up with that but if so, props where they're due!


Not going to go full on gutterboy but I think following my local league 1 team in terms of real life experiences and community may be more rewarding, rather than the constant bitterness / at the likes of the cities / Chelsea's doing it the wrong way and United just winning stuff despite how brick they supposedly are. It's a big part of top level football I guess, some can look at Arsenal and laugh at them being "bottlers" rather than thinking about how we're miles off them and despite that they weren't good enough to do anything truly impressive...

Edit - Not sure how this will sound as it's not necessarily up to me to question the validity of people's feelings, but I think it's easier to deal with the lack of bonafide success if you turn Continho in to bogeymen and lay the blame on their feet. There's no divine right to the bonafide success anyway of course, however it's a club so close to the precipice but just never quite making it, depending on what metric you go by of course.

As always a pleasure chatting with you mate. No idea if Steff agrees with me. But quite a few of his opinions mirror mine so I chimed in...

Your post went on a bit of a tangent, but definitely not in a bad way. I'll go on my own tangent in response, hope that's fine. But yes, I'm certain I've been inconsistent. I'm certain I've been too positive about all of our managers at some point and loads of our players.

I think I get what you're saying. Been feeling some of the same over the years. Easy to get disillusioned, jaded, apathetic and frustrated with both football and Spurs. The insane money in it and the cost to support. The corruption, the financially doped clubs, VAR. The list is endless. In our position we don't even get the joy of an occasional promotion (after the disappointment of relegation of course).

If I'm to get joy from this with any frequency there has to be joy about the process. About what's going on now. From the manager to the latest Porro shot, VdV recovery run, Richarlison chicken dance or Romero tackle. From the hope that maybe this time we will take another step up.

A friend of mine who was as into football as me, supporting a different team, just stepped away some years ago. Still hopes they win/do well, but doesn't follow any of it really. Just wasn't worth the time and money, other stuff that could fill that time in his life. The negatives outshone the positives too much. He wasn't a casual fan either, proper fan. I've thought about the same, but decided against it, so far at least.

Speaking for me personally I try to enjoy what I can, take the positives and try not to let the negatives bother me too much. I'd rather be overly optimistic about Mikey Moore and live with the disappointment if that's the case. I'd rather err on the side of being too positive about what's currently going on. Enjoying the games is out of my control really, but Ange makes me enjoy more of them, that's part of the reason why I like him. I try to let football be a positive part of my life, for me that's only possible if I care and with that comes disappointment at times, but I can live with that. With hope comes disappointment, but the antithesis to hope and belief is apathy and then I may as well quit following this cursed game. I enjoy conversations on here and with friends so when life affords me time for it I do it.

Again I have no idea if Steff agrees with me, I'm obviously not speaking for him.

I'm aware that my attempts to focus on the positives will probably lead to some of my opinions being inconsistent over time. I have inconsistent opinions anyway as do most people. Certainly most football fans on the topic of football. I'll be wrong on plenty of stuff anyway. I'd rather buy in on Ange a bit more than I should.

Perhaps that leads to me being overly harsh on Poch or Continho sometimes (I think I came up with it, but I actually don't know, can't actively remember reading it elsewhere). fudge it, they were paid a lot of money to be here, Poch joined Chelsea, I'm a fan, they don't read my posts, it's fine. I wouldn't want to be dismissive or completely unfair and appreciate if someone calls me out on that. Particularly on Poch because I do really appreciate what he did for us.

I try to be objective when I write stuff on here, not be coloured too much by trying to get joy out of a deeply flawed ugly beautiful game. But I'm sure I get that wrong too sometimes. I am aware and can handle being called out on it if someone thinks so.

Next season we'll again play the way we want to. Hopefully we'll see a lot of the small things that can make football fun, way more than with some of our recent managers. And there's at least some reasonable hope that we'll push on. That's enough to make me optimistic, perhaps even overly optimistic. That's a good feeling from football, I like feeling good and I like football.

If someone read all of that, sorry about the wall of text, hope I didn't waste your time.

 

[thfcsteff]

Respectfully I'm not sure you've addressed my points...

You've said they both failed spectacularly, I think after the 1st season with Conte you literally described it as a miracle, now you're downplaying it to a 14/15 game run? That is a huge switch in stance. I really wouldn't consider it dishonest to call out the players and the club for what it is, if anything it is too honest, the kind of honesty people don't appreciate.

Every managerial run (or at least 99.9%) eventually ends in failure, it's the way it works. But my point was in the viewing of them two as a failure now in hindsight whilst presumably heralding the new dawn after a decent season, I think Ange himself has literally labeled it decent but not successful fwiw. It's one thing if you just admit you don't like the managers as people and don't enjoy the style of football because they're reasonable opinions but the sweeping of the relative success under the table because it doesn't suit the narrative whilst going wild about a 5th place finish, it just doesn't add up.

The Jose point on saying he could be more successful with the squad than Poch, do you think managers go in to a job saying "So I am actually going to be less successful with the squad than the guy who didn't win anything, please hire me and pay me lots thanks". They all come in with targets and lofty ambitions, AVB said he wanted to win titles with Spurs, Ange has said the same, it's a lovely meaningless on brand sentiment. It'd take some balls to come in on the first press conference and go "This club isn't winning brick, if we're lucky we'll get in the CL and that's your lot." I would find that hilarious but most Spurs fans wouldn't!

Understood mate, good discussion with some interesting points.
I think I've been very clear that I have a personal dislike of Mourinho. Conte actually upset me with his.

I'd counter your reply by saying I am not sure you've given my Conte breakdown its due (I think I've detailed fairly clearly -with some supportive evidence - my trajectory of opinion there). With regards to 'suting a narrative' I simply don't ever work like that, in life or on this forum. My views on Ange and his relative 'success' are contextually situated in the mess he inherited everywhere at the club versus the player he lost (Kane).

Final qualification on my Mourinho/Poch comment. That summer 2019 we had a situation where (in hindsight) Poch should've left (I did not see it or agree but hindsight is 20/20). Levy and he forced themselves back together. They made a desicion to continue to work together. Mourinho -via his advisors- courted Levy heavily in those early months of the season. He was at a couple of games. He was whispering in Levy's ear and Levy had always wanted Mourinho since his Porto days. I have no problem with managers stating they can win, you're right, I want that. The way this absolute clam 'reportedly' went about it solidified my view of him. In fairness, I'm sure he is far from the first manager to behave this way, however it doesn't dilute what he did IMO.

 

[spurspinter1]

As always a pleasure chatting with you mate. No idea if Steff agrees with me. But quite a few of his opinions mirror mine so I chimed in...

Your post went on a bit of a tangent, but definitely not in a bad way. I'll go on my own tangent in response, hope that's fine. But yes, I'm certain I've been inconsistent. I'm certain I've been too positive about all of our managers at some point and loads of our players.

I think I get what you're saying. Been feeling some of the same over the years. Easy to get disillusioned, jaded, apathetic and frustrated with both football and Spurs. The insane money in it and the cost to support. The corruption, the financially doped clubs, VAR. The list is endless. In our position we don't even get the joy of an occasional promotion (after the disappointment of relegation of course).

If I'm to get joy from this with any frequency there has to be joy about the process. About what's going on now. From the manager to the latest Porro shot, VdV recovery run, Richarlison chicken dance or Romero tackle. From the hope that maybe this time we will take another step up.

A friend of mine who was as into football as me, supporting a different team, just stepped away some years ago. Still hopes they win/do well, but doesn't follow any of it really. Just wasn't worth the time and money, other stuff that could fill that time in his life. The negatives outshone the positives too much. He wasn't a casual fan either, proper fan. I've thought about the same, but decided against it, so far at least.

Speaking for me personally I try to enjoy what I can, take the positives and try not to let the negatives bother me too much. I'd rather be overly optimistic about Mikey Moore and live with the disappointment if that's the case. I'd rather err on the side of being too positive about what's currently going on. Enjoying the games is out of my control really, but Ange makes me enjoy more of them, that's part of the reason why I like him. I try to let football be a positive part of my life, for me that's only possible if I care and with that comes disappointment at times, but I can live with that. With hope comes disappointment, but the antithesis to hope and belief is apathy and then I may as well quit following this cursed game. I enjoy conversations on here and with friends so when life affords me time for it I do it.

Again I have no idea if Steff agrees with me, I'm obviously not speaking for him.

I'm aware that my attempts to focus on the positives will probably lead to some of my opinions being inconsistent over time. I have inconsistent opinions anyway as do most people. Certainly most football fans on the topic of football. I'll be wrong on plenty of stuff anyway. I'd rather buy in on Ange a bit more than I should.

Perhaps that leads to me being overly harsh on Poch or Continho sometimes (I think I came up with it, but I actually don't know, can't actively remember reading it elsewhere). fudge it, they were paid a lot of money to be here, Poch joined Chelsea, I'm a fan, they don't read my posts, it's fine. I wouldn't want to be dismissive or completely unfair and appreciate if someone calls me out on that. Particularly on Poch because I do really appreciate what he did for us.

I try to be objective when I write stuff on here, not be coloured too much by trying to get joy out of a deeply flawed ugly beautiful game. But I'm sure I get that wrong too sometimes. I am aware and can handle being called out on it if someone thinks so.

Next season we'll again play the way we want to. Hopefully we'll see a lot of the small things that can make football fun, way more than with some of our recent managers. And there's at least some reasonable hope that we'll push on. That's enough to make me optimistic, perhaps even overly optimistic. That's a good feeling from football, I like feeling good and I like football.

If someone read all of that, sorry about the wall of text, hope I didn't waste your time.

Some really good stuff in there, it definitely merits a re-read. I suppose a lot of it is about exploring your relationship with the sport, finding out whether it serves you well or not. I often wonder whether in terms of discourse I might be better off on a neutral forum as there's probably more chance of unbiased opinions - It seems like we have people who always believe we have the best player in the league in every position and don't rate any other team or player, so must just think it's down to pure bad luck that we are where we are, however that's probably another tangent in yet a different direction! You definitely don't come across as one of the hopium happy clapper posters for what my opinion is worth.

There's definitely plenty to be positive about. And as you infer, it's more fun that way whether it's about Mikey Moore or the general future of the club. It's probably healthier to have a good feeling about it all as well....

 

[fernadez]

Think the premise of the conversation is flawed personally. The decline set in on and off the pitch way before any of those managers were at the club. Post the 3-1 at Old Trafford the football we played was as bad as anything served up in the years after.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's probably healthier to have a good feeling about it all as well

There's a safety in numbers benefit to having the opposite approach....but boy, it must be unhealthy swimming in the negativity.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

As always a pleasure chatting with you mate. No idea if Steff agrees with me. But quite a few of his opinions mirror mine so I chimed in...

Your post went on a bit of a tangent, but definitely not in a bad way. I'll go on my own tangent in response, hope that's fine. But yes, I'm certain I've been inconsistent. I'm certain I've been too positive about all of our managers at some point and loads of our players.

I think I get what you're saying. Been feeling some of the same over the years. Easy to get disillusioned, jaded, apathetic and frustrated with both football and Spurs. The insane money in it and the cost to support. The corruption, the financially doped clubs, VAR. The list is endless. In our position we don't even get the joy of an occasional promotion (after the disappointment of relegation of course).

If I'm to get joy from this with any frequency there has to be joy about the process. About what's going on now. From the manager to the latest Porro shot, VdV recovery run, Richarlison chicken dance or Romero tackle. From the hope that maybe this time we will take another step up.

A friend of mine who was as into football as me, supporting a different team, just stepped away some years ago. Still hopes they win/do well, but doesn't follow any of it really. Just wasn't worth the time and money, other stuff that could fill that time in his life. The negatives outshone the positives too much. He wasn't a casual fan either, proper fan. I've thought about the same, but decided against it, so far at least.

Speaking for me personally I try to enjoy what I can, take the positives and try not to let the negatives bother me too much. I'd rather be overly optimistic about Mikey Moore and live with the disappointment if that's the case. I'd rather err on the side of being too positive about what's currently going on. Enjoying the games is out of my control really, but Ange makes me enjoy more of them, that's part of the reason why I like him. I try to let football be a positive part of my life, for me that's only possible if I care and with that comes disappointment at times, but I can live with that. With hope comes disappointment, but the antithesis to hope and belief is apathy and then I may as well quit following this cursed game. I enjoy conversations on here and with friends so when life affords me time for it I do it.

Again I have no idea if Steff agrees with me, I'm obviously not speaking for him.

I'm aware that my attempts to focus on the positives will probably lead to some of my opinions being inconsistent over time. I have inconsistent opinions anyway as do most people. Certainly most football fans on the topic of football. I'll be wrong on plenty of stuff anyway. I'd rather buy in on Ange a bit more than I should.

Perhaps that leads to me being overly harsh on Poch or Continho sometimes (I think I came up with it, but I actually don't know, can't actively remember reading it elsewhere). fudge it, they were paid a lot of money to be here, Poch joined Chelsea, I'm a fan, they don't read my posts, it's fine. I wouldn't want to be dismissive or completely unfair and appreciate if someone calls me out on that. Particularly on Poch because I do really appreciate what he did for us.

I try to be objective when I write stuff on here, not be coloured too much by trying to get joy out of a deeply flawed ugly beautiful game. But I'm sure I get that wrong too sometimes. I am aware and can handle being called out on it if someone thinks so.

Next season we'll again play the way we want to. Hopefully we'll see a lot of the small things that can make football fun, way more than with some of our recent managers. And there's at least some reasonable hope that we'll push on. That's enough to make me optimistic, perhaps even overly optimistic. That's a good feeling from football, I like feeling good and I like football.

If someone read all of that, sorry about the wall of text, hope I didn't waste your time.

Generally I'm an optimist with realistic tendencies

 

[monkeybarry]

Can I suggest some slight tweaks to the spelling in the thread title?!