glasgowspur
Luka Modric
The appointment of a manager should be a statement of intent.
Appointing Nuno indicated we were happy to drift along. Levy sacked him for doing just that, that's not nunos fault, that's levys.
Nuno deserved better.
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The Nu-Mour-Conts Era
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
The appointment of a manager should be a statement of intent.
Appointing Nuno indicated we were happy to drift along. Levy sacked him for doing just that, that's not nunos fault, that's levys.
Nuno deserved better.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
When your 8th choice….
Wonder if kane is already thinking that with Kompany at Bayern… I’m back to playing for a manager the club didn’t want
JerusalemMan
Paul Robinson
I liked both Mourinho and Conte. Not enough seen of Nuno to decide but he seemed to be inexplicably within himself during his time here.
Even if the overall timeframe resulted in a net negative, there were some magical moments within it.
Depending on their perspective, people might downplay the role of the manager in those and want to put credit on players or other factors but, regardless, Conte and Mourinho oversaw some incredible matches that made me feel so alive and in love with the club.
The 6-1 beating of Man Utd at Old Trafford is one of my favourite ever Spurs games.
Even if the overall timeframe resulted in a net negative, there were some magical moments within it.
Depending on their perspective, people might downplay the role of the manager in those and want to put credit on players or other factors but, regardless, Conte and Mourinho oversaw some incredible matches that made me feel so alive and in love with the club.
The 6-1 beating of Man Utd at Old Trafford is one of my favourite ever Spurs games.
Lemonade Money
Les Medley
Nuno was a place holder, and got paid handsomely for it.
Conte wasn’t sacked, he effectively resigned publicly in a post-match press conference, and rubbished the club while he was at it. Disgraceful behaviour, no excuses. At least Jose didn’t do that.
While I agree with the sentiment that Jose/Conte were never an aligned fit to Spurs, I am fascinated when people don't understand why?
Jose & Conte were the same play, how did Spurs get one final try to leverage a squad with Kane & Son, boosted potential by new stadium revenue (Covid did fudge with that for Jose specifically), to get the trophy monkey off the clubs back ..
And it's the one time as a club we went super short term in focus, and it was a mistake ...
Jose & Conte were the same play, how did Spurs get one final try to leverage a squad with Kane & Son, boosted potential by new stadium revenue (Covid did fudge with that for Jose specifically), to get the trophy monkey off the clubs back ..
And it's the one time as a club we went super short term in focus, and it was a mistake ...
Mikey10
Frederic Kanoute
Evening, Rishi! I thought you supported Southampton…?
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
And wales
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Well I stand by every word of it.
The whole 'finishing 5th...' sentiment deserves proper context. 'Brilliant success'? No. Successful season? Absolutely. Yoiu surely don't need me to offer the context here do you? i think it's clear.
It isn't 'just being positive for the sake of it' in any way, shape or form. I believe it to be true (my truth anyway).
Let me explain why I think Conte was a coward. At the time of his appt I was excited as I felt that one way or another, we would definitively see where our problems lay. Furthermore, I believed wholeheartedly that if Conte did not get what he wanted, he'd resign immediately. The portent of acquiesence was when Spence was signed despite Conte very clearly not wanting him. I was one of the very few on this forum to (early doors post- Ventrone death) sympathize with Conte and suggest this was a massive blow for him. That being said, the combination of situations (including his health, where he spectacularly ignored doctors and tried to come back too fast only to destabilize things further) led to a situation where he seemed to realize he was not going to be able to do this job to his specifications, as once we came back from the World Cup, the wheels on his wagon fell right off. Fine, that happens. But instead of being honest and graceful about it, he choe to throw one of great fits and bus tossing exercises in our managerial history post 3-3 draw at Soton, essentially blowing EVERYTHING up and blaming everyone but himself. That, for me, is a coward's way out.
Mourinho? Well he did 'achieve' getting us past Chelsea on pens, Stoke and Brentford, yes. And I know many will believe he should've had the chance to manage the final. Logic certainly supports that. But the clam had slowly shafted and ground our club into a gnarled state, so bye bye it was and I dod not complain one bit.
It isn't about being 'nice' it's about integrity. Mourinho told Levy he could do better than Poch with 'that squad' and instesd he actually took us backwards because he cannot rebuild he can only build with large funds. Conte? Again, hats off for that 15-16 game run which got us into the CL, but when I really thought we'd have a man who would walk without the support he wanted, he stayed, suggesting he was OK with things as they were, which means our subsequent failure under him was in a large part down to him, yet he didn't wear a stitch of responsibility.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
...I will always have time for Nuno because unlike others, he did not go nuclear/throw everyone under the bus.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
That's it in a nutshell.
Lemonade Money
Les Medley
Yet the Levy out departs all slate him for not going super short term at various times.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
To be fair to Conte and Mourinho they did have Kane, but didn't have a bunch of the players that have been so good for us this season. Give Ange the backline Mourinho had, or Mourinho the backline Ange has things may have been different.
On the topic of success...
Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short term results. That's their thing. Within the means of the club at the time they did get quite a bit of the backing they wanted. Managers, and particularly managers like them will always want more in the market. But we did move to a more short term view, more experienced players. They knew what they got into when they signed, they knew we weren't mega rich. And ultimately, for many reasons, it blew up. They failed. That happens, it was always a gamble.
What Ange has been able to do is lay some really good foundations in his fist season. Integrate several players who don't have a ton of experience at this level into an ambitious playing style. Show that he can and probably wants to work with younger players and develop them. Something that fits better with our financial situation.
Ange can have another rough patch next season and get through it because of how he's building and operating. With Conte and Mourinho the next rough patch was always likely to be the start of a death spiral.
It's been relative success with Mourinho, Conte and so far with Ange. Mourinho and Conte weren't able to push on from there. Ange may be able to. With the foundations he's put in place so far I'm relatively optimistic.
On the topic of success...
Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short term results. That's their thing. Within the means of the club at the time they did get quite a bit of the backing they wanted. Managers, and particularly managers like them will always want more in the market. But we did move to a more short term view, more experienced players. They knew what they got into when they signed, they knew we weren't mega rich. And ultimately, for many reasons, it blew up. They failed. That happens, it was always a gamble.
What Ange has been able to do is lay some really good foundations in his fist season. Integrate several players who don't have a ton of experience at this level into an ambitious playing style. Show that he can and probably wants to work with younger players and develop them. Something that fits better with our financial situation.
Ange can have another rough patch next season and get through it because of how he's building and operating. With Conte and Mourinho the next rough patch was always likely to be the start of a death spiral.
It's been relative success with Mourinho, Conte and so far with Ange. Mourinho and Conte weren't able to push on from there. Ange may be able to. With the foundations he's put in place so far I'm relatively optimistic.
spurspinter1
Steve Carr
I can't remember how the club officially labeled it, was it a mutual agreement on the official statement?
Conte could have said nothing and probably got more money by stringing the whole thing along but instead had reached his limit and did away with the PR friendly corporate flimflam we usually hear at press conferences. I appreciate that most fans aren't going to love their own club getting eviscerated by the manager. I'm not sure it's disgraceful behavior to tell the truth, it just perhaps wasn't necessarily productive, a bit like Ange's "fragile foundations" suddenly becoming apparent after not seeing eye to eye with a lot of "fans".
To be fair Levy made sure it was a mistake by hiring a manager to win trophies and then firing him days before a cup final
But regardless, unless our spending multiplies it is obvious that this kind of coach is not appropriate for the way we want to operate....
spurspinter1
Steve Carr
Respectfully I'm not sure you've addressed my points...
You've said they both failed spectacularly, I think after the 1st season with Conte you literally described it as a miracle, now you're downplaying it to a 14/15 game run? That is a huge switch in stance. I really wouldn't consider it dishonest to call out the players and the club for what it is, if anything it is too honest, the kind of honesty people don't appreciate.
Every managerial run (or at least 99.9%) eventually ends in failure, it's the way it works. But my point was in the viewing of them two as a failure now in hindsight whilst presumably heralding the new dawn after a decent season, I think Ange himself has literally labeled it decent but not successful fwiw. It's one thing if you just admit you don't like the managers as people and don't enjoy the style of football because they're reasonable opinions but the sweeping of the relative success under the table because it doesn't suit the narrative whilst going wild about a 5th place finish, it just doesn't add up.
The Jose point on saying he could be more successful with the squad than Poch, do you think managers go in to a job saying "So I am actually going to be less successful with the squad than the guy who didn't win anything, please hire me and pay me lots thanks". They all come in with targets and lofty ambitions, AVB said he wanted to win titles with Spurs, Ange has said the same, it's a lovely meaningless on brand sentiment. It'd take some balls to come in on the first press conference and go "This club isn't winning brick, if we're lucky we'll get in the CL and that's your lot." I would find that hilarious but most Spurs fans wouldn't!
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I get your point. But I also get Steffs point I think.
Two overarching points:
1. Comparing Ange to Continho directly. Or judging them on the same standard.
Conte and Mourinho were both in the job for about a year and a half. They left with the club more or less in chaos.
If Ange is sacked similarly after a year and a half in charge and leaving the club in chaos I think it would be fair to describe his time here as a failure, perhaps even a spectacular failure depending on the severity of the downfall.
That description would completely ignore the relative success in the earlier stages of his stay here. That description would lack nuance. And I think it would also be fair. It would be fair to call it out for lacking nuance of course, reminding people of the good times and relative success along the way. But both perspectives would be valid imo.
Part of what I like with Ange is that such a downfall looks unlikely, whereas with Mourinho and Conte it looked inevitable and was just a question of time.
2. Comparing Ange's mandate to that of Continho. Or why I think it's fair to judge Ange on a different standard.
A thing Ange has done that isn't really "success" as such, but can be important in a path towards success is that he's integrated and seemingly wanted us to sign younger players with huge potential that should serve us well for many years with or without him. Players capable of playing the kind of football we at some point would have wanted to return to no matter what.
That's been part of his mandate. It wasn't really for the other two. He has succeeded on this that the other two didn't really try or want or were expected to do. It's not "success", but he has succeeded if you get what I'm saying. Similarly on implementing attractive football, getting the fans behind the team again etc.
The other two are judged more in their ultimate results because that wasn't just the most important part of their mandate and what they tried to do. Short term success was their only mandate pretty much. In a way Ange is rightly judged on a different standard because what he's trying to do is a different thing. And one where even failure on results, be it a spectacular downfall or a slow grinding drawn out death of a thousand cuts, should be easier for the club to deal with and move on from.
He can "succeed" at part of his mandate even if he fails to bring "success". The other two couldn't. So he's rightly being judged by a different standard.
Bishop
Steve Carr
I don't care why. They were the wrong decisions before the appointments and ultimately proved to be the wrong appointments during their tenures. It's not hindsight, it was bloody obvious at the time if you have any understanding of the way both of those managers work and the contexts within which their previous success came. They don't need to be biggish spenders, they need to be THE BIGGEST spenders relative to their competitors.
What I don't think you understand is that for someone like myself I don't accept that short term thinking as an excuse and I don't even buy the trophy argument because when we had the final right in front of us Levy decided to sack the coach who basically never loses finals despite often being the underdog. So how much of their appointments was really at least in the case of Mourinho in search of a trophy?
For me it just shows more muddled and confused strategy and again an example of Levy and the board not truly understanding the position of this club and how to execute success. I will give Levy and the board that they have now restructured and have started on a more sustainable model path, but time will tell if they are actually able to execute, it looks good so far but we've seen that many times before.
spurspinter1
Steve Carr
Interesting post as ever mate, I wonder if Steff agrees with your understanding of his points.
Absolutely agree on the relative success of Ange and there are different expectations given the circumstances of the club.
I don't think anyone could argue that we've made progress in terms of a league position (8th to 4th) but also played a style of football that is more what most would consider what we want from a Spurs team. I'm also in favour of signing younger players moving forwards (but also not a fan of the preloaded excuse of "well they're going players what can we expect" if everything falls to brick season after season).
What I will say as I hope I'm not coming off as a bit snipey (not a real word in English but hope it makes sense) to Steff as it may seem like I'm trying to use his words against him. It's easy to sit there listening to someone providing content week in week out and cherry pick details you don't agree with / that may conflict with something said that stood out from literally over a year ago.
Despite it being a relatively good season including bringing the fan base on board I'm feeling rather disconnected with the club and possibly disillusioned, whether it's misplaced entitlement it's not for me to say. But watching Utd lift the FA Cup having had 5 below average seasons and their fans described as "going through such a hard time", it was a bit of a sickener. Plus if I were to have a trip down to London, get some beers in, match ticket and accommodation I think that would genuinely amount to what I have to live on for a month. So instead I'm watching bricky streams if we're not on telly which just isn't actually fun or rewarding. Plus, call me a pessimistic but I just think the glass ceiling is there, if you'd have spoken to the 18 year old me blown away by Redknapp's teams and said "this is as good as it's going to get, the odd CL qualification" I wouldn't have stopped supporting but however you look at it, it's disappointing. So where Steff (can't @ him for some reason) is possibly more geared towards positivity I'm just a bit more negatively inclined / jaded I guess? It's not all about winning obviously, but we definitely don't deserve to have won anything either (imo of course). Do I truly think that Ange is the man to change us in to an actual top level team? I just think he'll make it a bit more bearable to watch for the most part, maybe to some that'll sound miserable or entitled as if I think I (or the fan base as a whole) deserve more, I appreciate nothing is promised.
Making out like Ange has reinvented the wheel whilst discrediting former managers who did better initially seems off. Continho is a great portmanteau btw mate, not sure if you came up with that but if so, props where they're due!
Not going to go full on gutterboy but I think following my local league 1 team in terms of real life experiences and community may be more rewarding, rather than the constant bitterness / at the likes of the cities / Chelsea's doing it the wrong way and United just winning stuff despite how brick they supposedly are. It's a big part of top level football I guess, some can look at Arsenal and laugh at them being "bottlers" rather than thinking about how we're miles off them and despite that they weren't good enough to do anything truly impressive...
Edit - Not sure how this will sound as it's not necessarily up to me to question the validity of people's feelings, but I think it's easier to deal with the lack of bonafide success if you turn Continho in to bogeymen and lay the blame on their feet. There's no divine right to the bonafide success anyway of course, however it's a club so close to the precipice but just never quite making it, depending on what metric you go by of course.
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