The Nu-Mour-Conts Era

[Gutter Boy]

With a bit of context of time, ive been thinking back to the 2020-2023 period. Now we are clearly on a much better course, ive been trying to assess just how bad it was.

We obviously lost our CL status and expectation of 2nd and 3rd place finishes. And the fan base lost its unity and became fractious. Off the pitch our finances didnt seem to be hurt too much, but we are left with a few scars of poor recruitment, esp from the earlier years of the period (pre-Paratici).

So was it 4 years of total decline, or was there any positive from it? Levy's hubris being clipped perhaps? Or just Sarr and Udogie technically arriving in that period?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

With a bit of context of time, ive been thinking back to the 2020-2023 period. Now we are clearly on a much better course, ive been trying to assess just how bad it was.

We obviously lost our CL status and expectation of 2nd and 3rd place finishes. And the fan base lost its unity and became fractious. Off the pitch our finances didnt seem to be hurt too much, but we are left with a few scars of poor recruitment, esp from the earlier years of the period (pre-Paratici).

So was it 4 years of total decline, or was there any positive from it? Levy's hubris being clipped perhaps? Or just Sarr and Udogie technically arriving in that period?

Well the youth recruited at that time have developed nicely and can potentially become huge in future

That’s no reflection on the managers at the time though

 

[Gutter Boy]

Well the youth recruited at that time have developed nicely and can potentially become huge in future

That’s no reflection on the managers at the time though

Yeah, Hitchen to Paratici was a huge game changer.

But something happened lower down too i guess? Someone picking up Lankshear and Soonsup from United and Chelsea etc. Part of Paratici's structural overhaul maybe?

 

[FatBloke]

Mour-Conts-Nu, surely? Ah, now I see what you did there. Nice.

I think all of us could see the decline of Pochettino's side in the 2018-19 season, despite making it to the CL final (and therefore arguably being the club's most successful season in recent history). Then there was that truly awful (in hindsight) summer transfer window. Ndombele, Sessegnon, Lo Celso. Bah.

Without cheating by looking things up, my memories of that period are hope under Mourinho, followed by horrible defensive football. Then abject failure under an out-of-his-depth Nuno, before more hope in the early Conte days, before it all went wrong again!

There were some positives though. We finally did some decent recruitment under Paratici -- Bentancur, Kulu, Sarr, Romero, Udogie, Porro and Bissouma represent a good haul, even if a couple of them have had a run of poor form recently.

And off the pitch, the new stadium started showing its worth, both financially and in terms of the club's profile. We're now up there with the best, which I really hope translates into better players on the pitch -- could you imagine young players genuinely choosing us over Bayern and Barcelona a few years ago?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Mour-Conts-Nu, surely? Ah, now I see what you did there. Nice.

I think all of us could see the decline of Pochettino's side in the 2018-19 season, despite making it to the CL final (and therefore arguably being the club's most successful season in recent history). Then there was that truly awful (in hindsight) summer transfer window. Ndombele, Sessegnon, Lo Celso. Bah.

Without cheating by looking things up, my memories of that period are hope under Mourinho, followed by horrible defensive football. Then abject failure under an out-of-his-depth Nuno, before more hope in the early Conte days, before it all went wrong again!

There were some positives though. We finally did some decent recruitment under Paratici -- Bentancur, Kulu, Sarr, Romero, Udogie, Porro and Bissouma represent a good haul, even if a couple of them have had a run of poor form recently.

And off the pitch, the new stadium started showing its worth, both financially and in terms of the club's profile. We're now up there with the best, which I really hope translates into better players on the pitch -- could you imagine young players genuinely choosing us over Bayern and Barcelona a few years ago?

I actually still think we recruited the right players in that toxic window… they just didn’t work
We needed replacements in key roles and everyone was a sensible stand out
What we haven’t done is have a plan and stick with a plan

 

[Raziel]

With a bit of context of time, ive been thinking back to the 2020-2023 period. Now we are clearly on a much better course, ive been trying to assess just how bad it was.

We obviously lost our CL status and expectation of 2nd and 3rd place finishes. And the fan base lost its unity and became fractious. Off the pitch our finances didnt seem to be hurt too much, but we are left with a few scars of poor recruitment, esp from the earlier years of the period (pre-Paratici).

So was it 4 years of total decline, or was there any positive from it? Levy's hubris being clipped perhaps? Or just Sarr and Udogie technically arriving in that period?

Every team has a dip, if we build from here, it was a relatively minor one (will be 17th time in Europe in 19 years?)

- As others have said, we survived the Stadium change, and stadium revenue has come online (we are ahead of Chelsea/Arsenal most years)
- Our recruitment over last 3 years is on the verge of spectacular -> Vicario, Udogie, VDV, Dragusin, Romero, Porro, Bissouma, Sarr, Bentancur, Maddisonc, Johnson, Kulu. Basically Son is the only starter in first 11 left from 4 years ago? Who are the duds from that period? Spence & Gil?
- Club has a much better structure in place, Technical director, DoF, Scouts, Data analytics
- Academy is the best I can recall (that work started then)

Honestly, I think if you take out Arsenal's resurgence in the last 2 years (and it's only that), Spurs fans would probably be much happier about the clubs current position.

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think it was anywhere near as bad as others.

We had the most effective PL strike partnership in history under Jose and Conte got us back in the CL.

Recruitment was good.

We didn't fall too far, which many others have in rebuild phases.

 

[mephitis]

Can't have been that memorable, I had to Google it

 

[FatBloke]

Every team has a dip, if we build from here, it was a relatively minor one (will be 17th time in Europe in 19 years?)

- As others have said, we survived the Stadium change, and stadium revenue has come online (we are ahead of Chelsea/Arsenal most years)
- Our recruitment over last 3 years is on the verge of spectacular -> Vicario, Udogie, VDV, Dragusin, Romero, Porro, Bissouma, Sarr, Bentancur, Maddisonc, Johnson, Kulu. Basically Son is the only starter in first 11 left from 4 years ago? Who are the duds from that period? Spence & Gil?
- Club has a much better structure in place, Technical director, DoF, Scouts, Data analytics
- Academy is the best I can recall (that work started then)

Honestly, I think if you take out Arsenal's resurgence in the last 2 years (and it's only that), Spurs fans would probably be much happier about the clubs current position.

Good point about the dip not being too bad -- but a large part of that was, as @Baleforce pointed out, mitigated against by the Kane-Son partnership. Goals win matches.

I would argue that we can't include Vicario, Dragusin, Maddison and Johnson as part of the No-Mour-Conts period. It's a bit shaky including Udogie and Sarr too, given that they've only come good (for us!) this season. So not quite that spectacular, but still not bad.

I'm very confident about our recruitment going into this summer. I'm a little less confident about our manager than I was 6 months ago, but that's one for another thread.

 

[thfcsteff]

Mourinho was (and is) a clam.
He did untold damage over a short amount of time and failed spectacularly with us in the CL.
No-one seems to acknowledge that.
Conte did deliver a great 14-15 games the season we got back into the CL, but ultimatly proved to be a bit of a coward as he could not do the job within the parameters he knew Levy operates with.
I am sure there's a more 'reasoned' and detailed analysis to be had, but I don't think either 'man' deserves it. Ultimately they failed spectacularly having said they wouldn't because they were 'winners'.

 

[Raziel]

Mourinho was (and is) a clam.
He did untold damage over a short amount of time and failed spectacularly with us in the CL.
No-one seems to acknowledge that.
Conte did deliver a great 14-15 games the season we got back into the CL, but ultimatly proved to be a bit of a coward as he could not do the job within the parameters he knew Levy operates with.
I am sure there's a more 'reasoned' and detailed analysis to be had, but I don't think either 'man' deserves it. Ultimately they failed spectacularly having said they wouldn't because they were 'winners'.

Both proved that managers are great in situations/scenarios, neither could work at a disadvantage to 3-4 other sides and use their ability to close the gap.

 

[Baleforce]

Both proved that managers are great in situations/scenarios, neither could work at a disadvantage to 3-4 other sides and use their ability to close the gap.

I dunno, I think it's likely most others would have done far worse.

We'll never know.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I dunno, I think it's likely most others would have done far worse.

We'll never know.

Mou with more money could have done something
We quickly forgot that Covid kicked in just at the point we could back him
I don’t know if we would have, but I think we may have considering the money spent in the summer window before
We technically added 10 players in his era but actual signings (excluding the lo celso deal) were all decent money at the time and apart frI’m Bergwein were all defensive

 

[braineclipse]

A lot of very good posts in this thread.

Ultimately for me Paratici, quite a few of the signings made. The seeming restructuring of our youth policy. Levy returning to the DoF model. The relative lightness of the drop in performances even though the feeling at the time was terrible.

And giving Ange a starting point where he's compared to a clam and a coward (cheers Steff) as a starting point giving him the chance to shine even more in the contrast to them.

 

[Bishop]

Mou with more money could have done something
We quickly forgot that Covid kicked in just at the point we could back him
I don’t know if we would have, but I think we may have considering the money spent in the summer window before
We technically added 10 players in his era but actual signings (excluding the lo celso deal) were all decent money at the time and apart frI’m Bergwein were all defensive

We still made the wrong recruitment decisions. Moi wanted Skinnier but instead we signed the prospect Rodon, whom he predictably didn't trust and never played. He needed a striker in that January window and instead we signed a LWF in Berwijn, again a player with potential but not what Jose actually wanted and felt he needed. So the money spent wasn't the issue, it was who was doing the recruiting and the intentions behind the signings made that didn't line up with what the manager actually felt they needed.

 

[glasgowspur]

Jose is levys biggest mistake. By far.
I don't know what happened between levy and Poch to break what appeared to be a solid relationship, but to jump from Poch to Jose is just madness.
When we courted conte in the summer I was dead set against it. Six games into Nuno and I was desperate for conte.
Conte was never a good fit. but I did reckon that we needed a shake up and if even if it meant a really bad blow up and conte trashing the place as he walked it would be worth it to uncover the problems.
Conte bottled it though, he didn't go full meltdown, he hinted and threw a couple of half hearted jibes and cashed his cheque.
Atm it appears we are back on track and moving forward on a trajectory more akin to our situation.

 

[Bishop]

Jose is levys biggest mistake. By far.
I don't know what happened between levy and Poch to break what appeared to be a solid relationship, but to jump from Poch to Jose is just madness.
When we courted conte in the summer I was dead set against it. Six games into Nuno and I was desperate for conte.
Conte was never a good fit. but I did reckon that we needed a shake up and if even if it meant a really bad blow up and conte trashing the place as he walked it would be worth it to uncover the problems.
Conte bottled it though, he didn't go full meltdown, he hinted and threw a couple of half hearted jibes and cashed his cheque.
Atm it appears we are back on track and moving forward on a trajectory more akin to our situation.

Like you I never wanted Conte who along with You I couldn't think of a less suited head coach for a Levy led Spurs. I would have personally given Nuno more time (wrongly or not) but Conte isn't someone I would have ever seriously looked at. I suppose like you the benefit is he might go full nuclear and help start the actual proceeds of rebuilding what this club is and I guess in a round about way he kind of did.

 

[spurspinter1]

Mourinho was (and is) a clam.
He did untold damage over a short amount of time and failed spectacularly with us in the CL.
No-one seems to acknowledge that.
Conte did deliver a great 14-15 games the season we got back into the CL, but ultimatly proved to be a bit of a coward as he could not do the job within the parameters he knew Levy operates with.
I am sure there's a more 'reasoned' and detailed analysis to be had, but I don't think either 'man' deserves it. Ultimately they failed spectacularly having said they wouldn't because they were 'winners'.

Finishing 4th rescuing a trainwreck start with no pre season and getting sacked whilst in 4th place is spectacularly failing, yet no doubt finishing 5th will a full pre season and no cup runs is a brilliant success right? I just don't see how that can add up rationally, if it's just being positive for the sake of it then fair enough.

It's not cowardice to struggle under the parameters that every other Spurs manager has struggled under, it's the reality that will most likely continue and if we're really good we'll finish in the CL once in a while - That's just the job.

I wonder what you think of Ange's comments that the season has not been successful as we have not won anything. If probably stings to have someone that you appear to want to be on board with in every way declare that Poch's time here was by default unsuccessful.

To be fair Mourinho is a clam, he is a clam who took us to a final and could have won it if given the chance, Mason's a lovely bloke who is / wasn't equipped to do so, same with the recent managers fondly remembered for being super likable dudes.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Finishing 4th rescuing a trainwreck start with no pre season and getting sacked whilst in 4th place is spectacularly failing, yet no doubt finishing 5th will a full pre season and no cup runs is a brilliant success right? I just don't see how that can add up rationally, if it's just being positive for the sake of it then fair enough.

It's not cowardice to struggle under the parameters that every other Spurs manager has struggled under, it's the reality that will most likely continue and if we're really good we'll finish in the CL once in a while - That's just the job.

I wonder what you think of Ange's comments that the season has not been successful as we have not won anything. If probably stings to have someone that you appear to want to be on board with in every way declare that Poch's time here was by default unsuccessful.

To be fair Mourinho is a clam, he is a clam who took us to a final and could have won it if given the chance, Mason's a lovely bloke who is / wasn't equipped to do so, same with the recent managers fondly remembered for being super likable dudes.

Contes issue was he didn’t wanna be here
His contract was short
He had bereavements to deal with
He has an arrogance that creates his own expectations and his personality just doesn’t suit us
But he for CL which was a big achievement
But he did blow the CL run IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

Finishing 4th rescuing a trainwreck start with no pre season and getting sacked whilst in 4th place is spectacularly failing, yet no doubt finishing 5th will a full pre season and no cup runs is a brilliant success right? I just don't see how that can add up rationally, if it's just being positive for the sake of it then fair enough.

It's not cowardice to struggle under the parameters that every other Spurs manager has struggled under, it's the reality that will most likely continue and if we're really good we'll finish in the CL once in a while - That's just the job.

I wonder what you think of Ange's comments that the season has not been successful as we have not won anything. If probably stings to have someone that you appear to want to be on board with in every way declare that Poch's time here was by default unsuccessful.

To be fair Mourinho is a clam, he is a clam who took us to a final and could have won it if given the chance, Mason's a lovely bloke who is / wasn't equipped to do so, same with the recent managers fondly remembered for being super likable dudes.

Probably I'm in the minority but I actually quite like Jose.
Yes he is a clam, but hey we all have a bit of the clam in us.
He really is not and never will be a suitable spurs manager under the current owners, it's such a bizarre appointment.