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The Goon Thread
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Although i think most people would take lloris over szczesny (me included), i think we are perhaps being a bit biased to say that "no-one" would rate szczesny over lloris. Wasn't it the case that Wenger pretty much had first dibs on lloris. And when he decided to stick with szczesny, that opened the path for us to get him. It just shows how subjective football opinions are. And what someone may think is obvious, it may not be so to others.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
It has to be said that Arsenal's defence was more solid than ours last season when they needed to be...
Luca Brasi
Kazuyuki Toda
I don't know the stats but I would think that those 4 did not start together for more than 10 games.
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
Yes, but that was largely due to injury issues with Bae.
In fact after a quick look at wiki, Bae only made 11 apps in the PL last season.
Last edited:
Heda SPURSCZ
Steven Caulker
Southcote Spur
Jason Dozzell
I have just read the following article - not sure if serious?
There is a difference between supporting Arsenal and holding Tottenham supporters in disdain.
THE PRICE WE PAY – Don McMahon
While I was surfing the net I came across an excellent article written by my favourite political columnist (Shannon Ridgway) about how people who support adversarial causes can twist their normally objective views into rather negative attitudes towards their opposite number. And indeed how counter-productive that can end up being. Here is an adaptation of this article but with Football supporters replacing political opponents:
During a recent North London derby game at WHL, a few of my fellow Gooners and I were watching the match on TV when someone randomly made the following comment:
“Is it horrible to say that I wish those Spuds would burst into flames and all be killed while they’re under the same roof?”
Uhh, yes. Yes, it is horrible.
And even though I knew that the person who said this was just kidding, his general sentiments still rang loud and clear. And of course there was a lot of disdain for their Tottenham neighbours.
And it is fairly obvious (isn’t it) that there are a lot of problems with this.
Because while healthy and safe football debate is par for the course in sports events, and while frustration with the attitudes of “the other side” is becoming more and more frequent and polarizing in football, hate speech is unacceptable. Always.
So, for everyone who identifies him/herself as a Gooner or Tottenham supporter, I want to make the argument that holding and expressing disdain for the other team’s supporters is wrong – for many reasons. Here are just a few.
1. It’s stereotypical.
Just as individuals within a specific culture or ethnic group don’t all behave the same way and hold the same set of values, the same goes for people who identify themselves as Tottenham or Arsenal supporters.
Like other ideologies, football support exists on a spectrum, with a much larger number of moderates in the centre and a limited number of extremists on either end – just like any other sport.
And contrary to what some Gooners believe, not every Tottenham is a idiotic, blinkered Arsenal hate-monger.
To make that assumption not only means that you, yourself, are stereotyping an entire demographic, but you, yourself, are then engaging in stereotypical behaviour – which is exactly what Gooners often claim to be against.
2. It’s hypocritical.
We Gooners pride ourselves on being all-inclusive.
We strive to accept people of all ages, races, orientations, religions, classes, and backgrounds. Or, at least, most of us say that we do.
So shouldn’t that include our adversaries as well?
Just because we don’t understand or agree with someone doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t accept them for who they are. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to understand their perspectives. We can even share some of our own as well.
But engaging in hypocrisy really holds us back from engaging in intelligent and fair discourse.
And if we don’t strive to accept alternate opinions in the same ways that we try to include and understand other groups, then we’re nothing but hypocrites – only accepting those into our group who agree with us, but no one else.
3. It doesn’t help advance our causes.
This is where the often-used phrase “preaching to the choir” comes into play.
If we refuse to associate with or even tolerate other teams’ supporters, we limit our attitudes and beliefs to our own Gooner circles, thus reducing the opportunity for others to become enlightened to our causes.
If the only people with whom we’re comfortable engaging are people who think and act just like us, then who are we helping?
No one, really.
Not ourselves, not our friends, and certainly not the beautiful game we love and we’re always trying to promote and fight for.
However, if we take the time to reach out and attempt to understand others who may not hold the same opinions as us, we increase the likelihood of spreading the truth about the Beautiful Game and Arsenal’s message.
And isn’t that what we want?
4. The North London dichotomy often is based on distorted views on what the opposing supporters truly believe.
(Warning: Gross over-generalizations to follow.)
Spuds think that Gooners are arrogant.
Gooners think that Spuds are unflinchingly idiotic, to the point of detriment to everything and everyone else.
Spuds think that Gooners hate all Spuds.
Meanwhile, Gooners think that Spuds are second-class.
Spuds think that Gooners are naive.
Gooners think that Spuds have no understanding of what Football is truly all about.
And on and on. And on.
In reality – as it usually is – the truth is somewhere in the middle.
For the most part, both Spuds and Gpponers are arrogant at times. They just have different ideas on what success means.
And neither party entirely “hates” or “loves” each other , although surely there are some people on both sides who hold both of those sentiments. Rather, they just hold different views on how much Football affects our daily lives and what the historical truth is.
The same goes for class. The issue isn’t about the love or disdain of each other’s history and values, but rather the opposing beliefs on when and how often each club has or has not represented the best in Football.
And everyone is entitled to those personal view-points.
So when we pull back the curtain on our own prejudices, we are more able to see the truth for what it is, rather than be influenced by our own biases.
5. People believe what they believe based on their life experiences and what they’ve been taught.
Recently I spoke to an ex-Tottenham supporter who said that because he grew up the way he did (in a TH household), he had a limited perspective on what people of other clubs and backgrounds went through. So, naturally, he supported the Club that best represented his family’s value system and traditions.
It wasn’t until he was forced outside of his comfort zone and into the real world that he gained some perspective and began to empathize with what other club’s supporters had to go through, especially emotionally.
We’re quick to criticize others for not being open to the experiences of others, but we forget to remember that we, too, had to be taught to see the world in that light. Even those of us who are marginalized had to, at some point or another, recognize that marginalization in order to fight against it. Think about how loyal supporters of Portsmouth must feel for example.
So before we criticize, we should remember that some people just haven’t been taught to see things a certain way.
And others may never see things a different way, regardless of what they go through. And that’s okay. (Unless it’s extreme and hateful, of course).
6. It limits our potential to nurture current relationships and develop new ones.
If I lived in an area where there are more Tottenham supporters than Arsenal fans, it would be easy to learn to close them off and even actively dislike them while isolating myself from possible interaction.
If I vehemently disliked all of them, I would have very few friends.
If we assume that just because someone supports another Club, they aren’t worth getting to know, then we limit the possibility of great relationships.
The truth is, I know Tottenham people who have amazing qualities, and I know a few Arsenal people whom I can’t stand being around for more than a few minutes at a time.
A person’s Club affiliation does not directly relate to their qualities as a human being.
That is: Everyone is different, and their sports ideology shouldn’t make or break who they are as people.
So before you judge someone based on their club affiliation, take the time to get to know them. It just might be worth it.
It’s okay to disagree with people. It’s even okay to hold disdain for other people’s viewpoints. But when we cross over into personal attacks, we’ve gone too far. Not only are we being rude, we’re also being unfair.
And we’re robbing ourselves of the opportunity to broaden our own horizons, as well as those of others.
So the next time you find yourself criticizing opposition supporters, remind yourself that what you’re critical of is their belief system – not the people themselves.
Remind yourself that you’re a Gooner because you accept everyone for who they are.
And if we don’t, we’re only guilty of promoting the stereotyping, judging, and hypocrisy to which we claim to be opposed.
There is a difference between supporting Arsenal and holding Tottenham supporters in disdain.
THE PRICE WE PAY – Don McMahon
While I was surfing the net I came across an excellent article written by my favourite political columnist (Shannon Ridgway) about how people who support adversarial causes can twist their normally objective views into rather negative attitudes towards their opposite number. And indeed how counter-productive that can end up being. Here is an adaptation of this article but with Football supporters replacing political opponents:
During a recent North London derby game at WHL, a few of my fellow Gooners and I were watching the match on TV when someone randomly made the following comment:
“Is it horrible to say that I wish those Spuds would burst into flames and all be killed while they’re under the same roof?”
Uhh, yes. Yes, it is horrible.
And even though I knew that the person who said this was just kidding, his general sentiments still rang loud and clear. And of course there was a lot of disdain for their Tottenham neighbours.
And it is fairly obvious (isn’t it) that there are a lot of problems with this.
Because while healthy and safe football debate is par for the course in sports events, and while frustration with the attitudes of “the other side” is becoming more and more frequent and polarizing in football, hate speech is unacceptable. Always.
So, for everyone who identifies him/herself as a Gooner or Tottenham supporter, I want to make the argument that holding and expressing disdain for the other team’s supporters is wrong – for many reasons. Here are just a few.
1. It’s stereotypical.
Just as individuals within a specific culture or ethnic group don’t all behave the same way and hold the same set of values, the same goes for people who identify themselves as Tottenham or Arsenal supporters.
Like other ideologies, football support exists on a spectrum, with a much larger number of moderates in the centre and a limited number of extremists on either end – just like any other sport.
And contrary to what some Gooners believe, not every Tottenham is a idiotic, blinkered Arsenal hate-monger.
To make that assumption not only means that you, yourself, are stereotyping an entire demographic, but you, yourself, are then engaging in stereotypical behaviour – which is exactly what Gooners often claim to be against.
2. It’s hypocritical.
We Gooners pride ourselves on being all-inclusive.
We strive to accept people of all ages, races, orientations, religions, classes, and backgrounds. Or, at least, most of us say that we do.
So shouldn’t that include our adversaries as well?
Just because we don’t understand or agree with someone doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t accept them for who they are. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to understand their perspectives. We can even share some of our own as well.
But engaging in hypocrisy really holds us back from engaging in intelligent and fair discourse.
And if we don’t strive to accept alternate opinions in the same ways that we try to include and understand other groups, then we’re nothing but hypocrites – only accepting those into our group who agree with us, but no one else.
3. It doesn’t help advance our causes.
This is where the often-used phrase “preaching to the choir” comes into play.
If we refuse to associate with or even tolerate other teams’ supporters, we limit our attitudes and beliefs to our own Gooner circles, thus reducing the opportunity for others to become enlightened to our causes.
If the only people with whom we’re comfortable engaging are people who think and act just like us, then who are we helping?
No one, really.
Not ourselves, not our friends, and certainly not the beautiful game we love and we’re always trying to promote and fight for.
However, if we take the time to reach out and attempt to understand others who may not hold the same opinions as us, we increase the likelihood of spreading the truth about the Beautiful Game and Arsenal’s message.
And isn’t that what we want?
4. The North London dichotomy often is based on distorted views on what the opposing supporters truly believe.
(Warning: Gross over-generalizations to follow.)
Spuds think that Gooners are arrogant.
Gooners think that Spuds are unflinchingly idiotic, to the point of detriment to everything and everyone else.
Spuds think that Gooners hate all Spuds.
Meanwhile, Gooners think that Spuds are second-class.
Spuds think that Gooners are naive.
Gooners think that Spuds have no understanding of what Football is truly all about.
And on and on. And on.
In reality – as it usually is – the truth is somewhere in the middle.
For the most part, both Spuds and Gpponers are arrogant at times. They just have different ideas on what success means.
And neither party entirely “hates” or “loves” each other , although surely there are some people on both sides who hold both of those sentiments. Rather, they just hold different views on how much Football affects our daily lives and what the historical truth is.
The same goes for class. The issue isn’t about the love or disdain of each other’s history and values, but rather the opposing beliefs on when and how often each club has or has not represented the best in Football.
And everyone is entitled to those personal view-points.
So when we pull back the curtain on our own prejudices, we are more able to see the truth for what it is, rather than be influenced by our own biases.
5. People believe what they believe based on their life experiences and what they’ve been taught.
Recently I spoke to an ex-Tottenham supporter who said that because he grew up the way he did (in a TH household), he had a limited perspective on what people of other clubs and backgrounds went through. So, naturally, he supported the Club that best represented his family’s value system and traditions.
It wasn’t until he was forced outside of his comfort zone and into the real world that he gained some perspective and began to empathize with what other club’s supporters had to go through, especially emotionally.
We’re quick to criticize others for not being open to the experiences of others, but we forget to remember that we, too, had to be taught to see the world in that light. Even those of us who are marginalized had to, at some point or another, recognize that marginalization in order to fight against it. Think about how loyal supporters of Portsmouth must feel for example.
So before we criticize, we should remember that some people just haven’t been taught to see things a certain way.
And others may never see things a different way, regardless of what they go through. And that’s okay. (Unless it’s extreme and hateful, of course).
6. It limits our potential to nurture current relationships and develop new ones.
If I lived in an area where there are more Tottenham supporters than Arsenal fans, it would be easy to learn to close them off and even actively dislike them while isolating myself from possible interaction.
If I vehemently disliked all of them, I would have very few friends.
If we assume that just because someone supports another Club, they aren’t worth getting to know, then we limit the possibility of great relationships.
The truth is, I know Tottenham people who have amazing qualities, and I know a few Arsenal people whom I can’t stand being around for more than a few minutes at a time.
A person’s Club affiliation does not directly relate to their qualities as a human being.
That is: Everyone is different, and their sports ideology shouldn’t make or break who they are as people.
So before you judge someone based on their club affiliation, take the time to get to know them. It just might be worth it.
It’s okay to disagree with people. It’s even okay to hold disdain for other people’s viewpoints. But when we cross over into personal attacks, we’ve gone too far. Not only are we being rude, we’re also being unfair.
And we’re robbing ourselves of the opportunity to broaden our own horizons, as well as those of others.
So the next time you find yourself criticizing opposition supporters, remind yourself that what you’re critical of is their belief system – not the people themselves.
Remind yourself that you’re a Gooner because you accept everyone for who they are.
And if we don’t, we’re only guilty of promoting the stereotyping, judging, and hypocrisy to which we claim to be opposed.
shaney
Alan Hutton
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
People realy over analyse stuff dont they. Some people support Spurs, some people support Arsenal and some other people support other teams. I can live with it, it doesnt keep me awake at night.
Of course, should a meteor strike the Emirates on match day then so be it.
People realy over analyse stuff dont they. Some people support Spurs, some people support Arsenal and some other people support other teams. I can live with it, it doesnt keep me awake at night.
Of course, should a meteor strike the Emirates on match day then so be it.
Disco Benny
Wayne Routledge
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
I didn't get to the end, he sums up why I dislike a lot of gooners, they all think they're Nick Hornby. some of my best mates are goners, we get on and have very similar views on almost everything, except football.
The simplest distinction is always the way we view the game, I'd rather lose a few games playing football our way (the RIGHT way), than win every game playing long ball, they are mostly at a loss to understand this.
I didn't get to the end, he sums up why I dislike a lot of gooners, they all think they're Nick Hornby. some of my best mates are goners, we get on and have very similar views on almost everything, except football.
The simplest distinction is always the way we view the game, I'd rather lose a few games playing football our way (the RIGHT way), than win every game playing long ball, they are mostly at a loss to understand this.
chicken_badge
Gudni Bergsson
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
Arsenal are a necessary evil. Without them, being a Spurs fan wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
If Arsenal never existed, maybe we would still have white shirts, the chicken badge, White Hart Lane, Bill Nicholson, The Double, Gazza, Greaves, Hoddle, Klinsmann, Mackay, Blanchflower.... the year ending in one, Holsten, no Holsten (1987), Anderlecht (on pens), yellow or sky blue away, Chas'n'Dave, only non-league side etc, first British side etc, Pat Jennings from a goal kick, Macnamara's band. But we would be missing that bit of spice.
I look at fans of teams like Swindon and feel sorry for them - who do they have the same needle with? Norwich have Ipswich, Pompey have Saints, victims have Everton. For us, Chelsea aren't it, West Ham aren't it.
I do not love Arsenal but I love having them around. Losing to them, losing out on fourth to them, is terrible. But every win is so magnificent; you cannot replicate that feeling in football.
Arsenal are a necessary evil. Without them, being a Spurs fan wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
If Arsenal never existed, maybe we would still have white shirts, the chicken badge, White Hart Lane, Bill Nicholson, The Double, Gazza, Greaves, Hoddle, Klinsmann, Mackay, Blanchflower.... the year ending in one, Holsten, no Holsten (1987), Anderlecht (on pens), yellow or sky blue away, Chas'n'Dave, only non-league side etc, first British side etc, Pat Jennings from a goal kick, Macnamara's band. But we would be missing that bit of spice.
I look at fans of teams like Swindon and feel sorry for them - who do they have the same needle with? Norwich have Ipswich, Pompey have Saints, victims have Everton. For us, Chelsea aren't it, West Ham aren't it.
I do not love Arsenal but I love having them around. Losing to them, losing out on fourth to them, is terrible. But every win is so magnificent; you cannot replicate that feeling in football.
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
I think about this in the context of the Old Firm - you need your biggest rivals as it makes everything a bit more interesting, they need us and we need them.
There is an interesting documentary by Vice on the old firm and how Celtic fans were celebrating when Rangers went bankrupt - but the problem is now that the league is dead and their biggest game in the world isn't theRE. I would be lost without the NLD...I love it and hate it at the same time.
I think about this in the context of the Old Firm - you need your biggest rivals as it makes everything a bit more interesting, they need us and we need them.
There is an interesting documentary by Vice on the old firm and how Celtic fans were celebrating when Rangers went bankrupt - but the problem is now that the league is dead and their biggest game in the world isn't theRE. I would be lost without the NLD...I love it and hate it at the same time.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
Pretty much this. Arsenal I laugh at. Chelsea I swear at.
Pretty much this. Arsenal I laugh at. Chelsea I swear at.
metalgear
Luka Modric
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
i don't go "tribal" with football.
it used to be entertainment or to improve my own football, so I've even followed arsenal (liam brady), victims (keagan), Man U (giggs, beckham) but always rooted for spurs (hoddle/adiles/villa/crooks/ archibald/gascoigne/waddle/mabutt/anderton) for all those players that I really liked.
these days, i've moved on to following clubs that do football the right way -i.e. a self sustaining business. so I'm glad I stuck with tottenham, and bear no malice against Arsenal or even Man U. Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project...well I'm totally against the way money distorts the game, how it cheapens glory, and demeans the idea of a football team (with an overeliance on superstars).
i don't go "tribal" with football.
it used to be entertainment or to improve my own football, so I've even followed arsenal (liam brady), victims (keagan), Man U (giggs, beckham) but always rooted for spurs (hoddle/adiles/villa/crooks/ archibald/gascoigne/waddle/mabutt/anderton) for all those players that I really liked.
these days, i've moved on to following clubs that do football the right way -i.e. a self sustaining business. so I'm glad I stuck with tottenham, and bear no malice against Arsenal or even Man U. Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project...well I'm totally against the way money distorts the game, how it cheapens glory, and demeans the idea of a football team (with an overeliance on superstars).
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
Re: Lets not laugh at the other North London club 2013/2014
I would feel bad though.
For the away team and fans.
I would feel bad though.
For the away team and fans.