The Goon Thread

[Neymar]

And you've had every point you've made tonight argued against many times over the entirety of this thread -

people seem to think that arsenal are only one or two players away.

i present reasons why i do not think this is the case. ie. when we or arsenal lose the likes of modric, berb, bale, vdv, campbell, henry, fabregas, nasri, rvp etc - we do not really do any worse the following season.
in addition when arsenal add superstar signings like alexis or ozil, they do not do significantly better the following season

football is a team game (much more than people apparently think is the case). to win titles, you need to buy superstar after superstar like the 3 teams above arsenal are doing. no-one in recent history has won the epl by "clever" spending and buying cheap players.

people point to one off anomalous examples like us, lpool, atleti or dortmund as signs it can be done. but i rightly point out that those case are just simply cases of luck (rather than any supernatural levels of genius), because the managers responsible for those results cant replicate it over a sustained period. hence, why modern day elite football results can simply be explained by finances. but as fans i guess no-one wants to hear/believe this. espeically our fans, as this would mean we have reached our peak. but look at the evidence. look at whats going on in the top leagues in europe. only the mega spenders win titles.

i haven't seen any valid reasoning as to why you can use finances to excuse Wenger from doing better than he is whilst at the same time praising him for finishing above teams he massively outspends, it's a complete and utter contradiction

finances pretty much explains football results at this level (not tictacs or any other nonesense that fans think will get their club performing at a higher level). wengers genius is that he has gotten arsenal to their current financial position.

 

[Neymar]

Quite similar to when you're defending your idol in here then

because im not an arsenal fan, i can actually see that wenger is a genius. if i was an arsenal fan, im sure id be frustrated to death by now (like the rest of them)

 

[SpurMeUp]

and they still do. the problem is there are more additional clubs in england who just buy up global stars. this scenario didnt exist before. i have no doubt wenger wouldnt have won much had owners like abramovic and mansour existed in 1998.

if wenger bought the likes of cazorla, koscileny, giroud, ramsey etc in 1998, i suspect he wouldve won the title back then too.

unfortunately, to win the title now, you simply need to buy global superstars. theres no "special scouting" that can win you titles when theres 3 teams willing to spend hundreds of millions on the best players in the world.

But their targets are either Galacticos or average. When they should have signed players that say United did. You can not tell me that Arse couldn't have strengthened unless they bought superstarts? Are you saying that players like Shneiderlin, Martial even players like Mane, Wanyama etc etc etc wouldn't have improved them? There are plenty of attainable players, just a lacking transfer policy.

 

[Baleforce]

They are the 4th richest team, but that doesn't naturally translate into the 4th best team. The constant upheaval at other teams means they should have done a lot better with the squads they've had, even with Wenger's inability to address obvious weaknesses. Ferguson won the league with far worse.

That partly works the other way as well though, he's never failed, even in adversity and lesser teams having excellent seasons, he's still got them into the CL.

 

[Jordinho]

That partly works the other way as well though, he's never failed, even in adversity and lesser teams having excellent seasons, he's still got them into the CL.

And that is mentality he has bred into them, top 4 is everything.

 

[Neymar]

I think that Ozil is too inconsistent to be of interest to the bigger clubs but that is how Henry was viewed at the time. I think that it is a good comparison but Henry improved after joining Ar5ena1 whereas Ozil has never really fulfilled the promise that he showed early in his career.

that old arsenal team would never win the league today.

dixon, winterburn, keown, bould - the lot of them are second rate. hardly any england caps between them, and they werent in the golden generation era either. far worse than the current back four (and recent back fours). parlour is the same.

if this current arsenal team existed back then, i have no doubt someone like ozil would look a genius. against out of shape defenders of the late 90s/early 2000s, theres no reason this current arsenal side and ozil wouldve shone out

 

[SpurMeUp]

your opinion. their owners would say "no good winning title after title, if it loses you money every year". and with spenders like utd, city, Chel53a and barca,real, psg in europe, there is no doubt that for Ar5ena1 to win titles, it would be a loss making operation

You might argue that with two shrewd signings in any of the recent summers past, they would have won the PL. Thank Hoddle they didn't make them. Such signings needed to be astute. Not rejects from top top clubs, but up and coming hungry players on lower wages. If its obvious to some plebs on a message board, you have to ask, what is wrong over there? Long may it continue.

 

[Neymar]

But their targets are either Galacticos or average. When they should have signed players that say United did. You can not tell me that Arse couldn't have strengthened unless they bought superstarts? Are you saying that players like Shneiderlin, Martial even players like Mane, Wanyama etc etc etc wouldn't have improved them? There are plenty of attainable players, just a lacking transfer policy.

they alreay have players at the mane, wanyama, (i would add schnderlin here too) calibre, and better. their squad is big enough. no need to add those guys. if you buy enough of those players you just become a liverpool

 

[Neymar]

You might argue that with two shrewd signings they would have won the PL. Thank Hoddle they didn't. Such signing needed to be astute. Not rejects from top top clubs, but up and coming hungry players on lower wages.

that easy huh?

 

[Baleforce]

because im not an Ar5ena1 fan, i can actually see that wenger is a genius. if i was an Ar5ena1 fan, im sure id be frustrated to death by now (like the rest of them)

You know what, it's something I've been thinking about recently, I intend to expand it further, but the short version is, they are probably the perfect team to support as they will never let you down, there is no expectation as they are financially so far behind the big three, you don't have to worry about them not winning anything as they don't even try to, they play "nice football" which is what most fans only claim to actually want, they have young players the fans identify with and a nice stadium with plenty of leg room and good transport links. They are so bloody convenient it's unreal.

 

[Baleforce]

And that is mentality he has bred into them, top 4 is everything.

Yep, and the board seem to be happy with that.

 

[billyiddo]

people seem to think that Ar5ena1 are only one or two players away.

i present reasons why i do not think this is the case. ie. when we or Ar5ena1 lose the likes of modric, berb, bale, vdv, campbell, henry, fabregas, nasri, rvp etc - we do not really do any worse the following season.
in addition when Ar5ena1 add superstar signings like alexis or ozil, they do not do significantly better the following season

football is a team game (much more than people apparently think is the case). to win titles, you need to buy superstar after superstar like the 3 teams above Ar5ena1 are doing. no-one in recent history has won the epl by "clever" spending and buying cheap players.

people point to one off anomalous examples like us, lpool, atleti or dortmund as signs it can be done. but i rightly point out that those case are just simply cases of luck (rather than any supernatural levels of genius), because the managers responsible for those results cant replicate it over a sustained period. hence, why modern day elite football results can simply be explained by finances. but as fans i guess no-one wants to hear/believe this. espeically our fans, as this would mean we have reached our peak. but look at the evidence. look at whats going on in the top leagues in europe. only the mega spenders win titles.




finances pretty much explains football results at this level (not tictacs or any other nonesense that fans think will get their club performing at a higher level). wengers genius is that he has gotten Ar5ena1 to their current financial position.

Arsenal are closer to challenging than you conclude, imho, they are now in a financial position to hold on to their key players and strengthen the squad as well - which is entirely different to the situation at the clubs you compare them with (Spurs/Liverpool/Atleti/Dortmund) who once in that position of doing well initially end up being picked apart by bigger teams, domestically and abroad - Arsenal aren't in this position anymore. you don't need to buy world class player after world class player to win the EPL, that's nonsense frankly, the number of genuine WC players between City/United/Chelsea is really quite low and Arsenal themselves arguably have just as many as any of them. i think you're over rating their purchases because they cost a lot of money and it's an easy get out clause to mask Wengers inability to bridge the gap. Where they are held back is consistently failing to address the weakest areas of the team over several seasons, from GK to CF to CM and back again, at various times these positions could have been improved but they either stuck with players proven not to be good enough already there or pitiful signings like Flamini and Kallstrom or resigning Henry ffs

I agree Wenger has done a great job building Arsenal to where they are - but now he is standing still ,unable to move them forward on the pitch

 

[Neymar]

You know what, it's something I've been thinking about recently, I intend to expand it further, but the short version is, they are probably the perfect team to support as they will never let you down, there is no expectation as they are financially so far behind the big three, you don't have to worry about them not winning anything as they don't even try to,

supporting football is about the ups and down imo. the problem is that wenger has got arsenal to perform to its max at a consistent rate. i think this is why arsenal fans are basically "bored". imo its better to support liverpool. they have periods where they are brick. but this leads to periods of (relative) success when they finish in the top 4 etc. and this is something they can genuinely celebrate and aim for. supporting arsenal must be like a zombie existence imo. whats the point of supporting them? you know whats going to happen (and whats not going to happen). theres no drama. isnt watching sport supposed to be about the "unscripted drama"?

they play "nice football" which is what most fans only claim to actually want, they have young players the fans identify with and a nice stadium with plenty of leg room and good transport links. They are so bloody convenient it's unreal.

"nice football" is what people claim they want. what people really want is "winning football". "nice football" is just a bonus

 

[SpurMeUp]

that easy huh?

Well yes. Spurs make a list, including the likes of Martial, Son etc. It is clearly not what Wenger does, as they did not strengthen. For someone who is a "genius" that is quite worrying, is it not!?

 

[milo]

Ar5ena1 are closer to challenging than you conclude, imho, they are now in a financial position to hold on to their key players and strengthen the squad as well - which is entirely different to the situation at the clubs you compare them with (Spurs/Liverpool/Atleti/Dortmund) who once in that position of doing well initially end up being picked apart by bigger teams, domestically and abroad - Ar5ena1 aren't in this position anymore. you don't need to buy world class player after world class player to win the EPL, The number of genuine WC players between City/United/Chel53a is really quite low and i think you're over rating their purchases because they cost a lot of money and it's an easy get out clause to mask Wengers inability to bridge the gap.

I agree Wenger has done a great job building Ar5ena1 to where they are - but now he is standing still ,unable to move them forward on the pitch

What makes it even worse is that City, Chelsea and United all have obvious weaknesses and it is easy to see them under performing this season. A couple of astute signings and Arsenal would have strengthened their chances of capitalising on any slip ups.

 

[Neymar]

The number of genuine WC players between City/United/Chel53a is really quite low and i think you're over rating their purchases because they cost a lot of money and it's an easy get out clause to mask Wengers inability to bridge the gap.

the thing is, those clubs settled on their sets of players by going through a whole lot of failed expensive purchases.

arsenal are doing the same but at a cheaper level. ie. instead of going through kezman, drogba, torres, falcao, mutu, crespo etc to find their striker. arsenal have been going through a lot of chamakhs, bentners, walcotts, girouds, park chu youngs etc

 

[SpurMeUp]

Even some schmuck playing Football Manager could have effected better transfers than Wenger has in recent years. I think you need to get out of his arse! There is no way you can argue his transfers have been astute recently.

 

[Baleforce]

supporting football is about the ups and down imo. the problem is that wenger has got Ar5ena1 to perform to its max at a consistent rate. i think this is why Ar5ena1 fans are basically "bored". imo its better to support liverpool. they have periods where they are ****. but this leads to periods of (relative) success when they finish in the top 4 etc. and this is something they can genuinely celebrate and aim for. supporting Ar5ena1 must be like a zombie existence imo. whats the point of supporting them? you know whats going to happen (and whats not going to happen). theres no drama. isnt watching sport supposed to be about the "unscripted drama"?



"nice football" is what people claim they want. what people really want is "winning football". "nice football" is just a bonus

"Better to support Liverpool", that's the craziest claim you have ever made

Completely agree on the winning football, anyone that claims otherwise is lying to you, or lying to themselves

 

[Neymar]

Well yes. Spurs make a list, including the likes of Martial, Son etc. It is clearly not what Wenger does, as they did not strengthen. For someone who is a "genius" that is quite worrying, is it not!?

their transfer policy is different though. they probably deliberately have less purchases at senior level because they bring through young players more than other clubs. ie. they have players like bellerin come through every so often so naturally there is less need for them to purchase at senior level

 

[Neymar]

Even some schmuck playing Football Manager could have effected better transfers than Wenger has in recent years. I think you need to get out of his arse! There is no way you can argue his transfers have been astute recently.

debuchy? koscielny? cech? mertesacker? arteta? cazorla? alexis? ox?