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The European Football Championship

glasgowspur said:
They play as a team, teams win tournaments, names don't.
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Exactly. You can set a team up to be defensive or very attacking, both can work just fine. But it has to be a functional team with players that fit together.

Argentina have had "better" individual players and failed. France have had great players in many positions and failed. When they succeed it's because they work as a team.

Edit:
Austria now. How many of those players would get into a top team? Not that many, but works because it's a team of players that work together in a cohesive system.

I would rather have "inferior" players in some positions to make a collective that fits together rather than a team of stars that are individuals with no coherence and complementary skills.
 
Bishop said:
All true but they actually played well Vs Saudi Arabia, they just couldn't finish their chances. Again the were by far the better team than the Netherlands before the comeback and again in the final. My point is just to say that Scaloni has a pretty average Argentina actually playing well, they are better than the raw ingredients they have and play far better football than they should.
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Sure, but I just think way too much pressure is heaped on teams (particularly England) about performances. Of course, dominant games, creating chances etc is great, but all that matters is the result. Argentina were very close to going out on a couple of an occasions...and their good performances wouldn't have mattered. It's not club football where sometimes performances mean more than results, because you're seeing the progression of the team. The only thing that matters is the result.

On England, the pressure to play well, dominant every game, create chances and also win the games has the opposite affect. It has done for the past 50 odd years. And it looks like it will happen again here. The whole squad is scared of failure. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
braineclipse said:
Exactly. You can set a team up to be defensive or very attacking, both can work just fine. But it has to be a functional team with players that fit together.

Argentina have had "better" individual players and failed. France have had great players in many positions and failed. When they succeed it's because they work as a team.
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tommysvr said:
Sure, but I just think way too much pressure is heaped on teams (particularly England) about performances. Of course, dominant games, creating chances etc is great, but all that matters is the result. Argentina were very close to going out on a couple of an occasions...and their good performances wouldn't have mattered. It's not club football where sometimes performances mean more than results, because you're seeing the progression of the team. The only thing that matters is the result.

On England, the pressure to play well, dominant every game, create chances and also win the games has the opposite affect. It has done for the past 50 odd years. And it looks like it will happen again here. The whole squad is scared of failure. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Argentina were close to going out, but they also showed that they could play, that they could create chances. Performances matter in finding solutions that will work when something different is needed. Southgate looks no closer to a solution now than he looked before the tournament. Scaloni found solutions and performances (in phases) even though they nearly went out. Easier with Messi. But if he hadn't found solutions they wouldn't have won the thing.

For England solutions can still be found, but most fans will want to see signs of that happening rather than just the hope that maybe at some point in the knockouts one will appear out of the blue.
 
Is the pressure really that much higher in England than in other big footballing nations? Higher than in Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France etc?

What some of those countries have is a real identity for how to play. They deviate from that of course (for better and for worse), but there's a identity there. England's identity seems to more of a mixed bag, depending on the latest manager of choice. Perhaps a result of the more mixed approaches in the Premier League compared to Germany, Spain and Italy for example. But Brazil and Argentina have players all over the place and manage to keep a decent identity none the less.

Perhaps makes it more difficult for a manager to integrate the players into a cohesive system. But then again puts more responsibility on the manager to actually do that. Think Southgate has done well in that respect in previous tournaments, but in this one he's just not finding solutions that work.
 
braineclipse said:
Is the pressure really that much higher in England than in other big footballing nations? Higher than in Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France etc?

What some of those countries have is a real identity for how to play. They deviate from that of course (for better and for worse), but there's a identity there. England's identity seems to more of a mixed bag, depending on the latest manager of choice. Perhaps a result of the more mixed approaches in the Premier League compared to Germany, Spain and Italy for example. But Brazil and Argentina have players all over the place and manage to keep a decent identity none the less.

Perhaps makes it more difficult for a manager to integrate the players into a cohesive system. But then again puts more responsibility on the manager to actually do that. Think Southgate has done well in that respect in previous tournaments, but in this one he's just not finding solutions that work.
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The expectation is bigger in England because it’s disproportionately created by our wonderful media and bookies for differing reasons
 
Bedfordspurs said:
The expectation is bigger in England because it’s disproportionately created by our wonderful media and bookies for differing reasons
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That's not true. They're among the favourites everywhere else too. England's problem is imo, much the same as Norway. Everyone say we have a great team with players playing in the best teams in Europe. Ryerson at Dortmund, Østigård at Napoli, Ødegaard, Haaland, Bobb.
But the thing is that the player next to those, is far better at their club team, or at least fits better. These are all players that play in a position at their club because they fit there. Taking them out of that and putting them together with other players, might make them perform at a lower level.
I know pretty much every national team will have similar issues, but Ragnik hasn't put the country's best players in an XI. He's picked the players that will be best suited to how they'll play. Players that complement each other. There in lies a great deal of the relative success of some teams that don't necessarily have the best players.
 
Kandi1977 said:
That's not true. They're among the favourites everywhere else too. England's problem is imo, much the same as Norway. Everyone say we have a great team with players playing in the best teams in Europe. Ryerson at Dortmund, Østigård at Napoli, Ødegaard, Haaland, Bobb.
But the thing is that the player next to those, is far better at their club team, or at least fits better. These are all players that play in a position at their club because they fit there. Taking them out of that and putting them together with other players, might make them perform at a lower level.
I know pretty much every national team will have similar issues, but Ragnik hasn't put the country's best players in an XI. He's picked the players that will be best suited to how they'll play. Players that complement each other. There in lies a great deal of the relative success of some teams that don't necessarily have the best players.
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I can say honestly, and not disrespecting Norway but I’ve only heard of 2 of those players you mention before this season. The one at Dortmund I had never heard of but he was great in the CL

None the less England have resources Norway could dream of

But the fact the team don’t deliver imo creates more pressure and more demand year on year

It’s like Tottenham

Ragnick has done an outstanding job but he is also a proven quality manager… unlike Southgate. I don’t know who norways manager is to compare

But the key as you say is picking a team that fits the system. No left footers is fudging daft. 25 right backs
No midfield passers. It’s all mish mash to answer no questions
 
Kandi1977 said:
That's not true. They're among the favourites everywhere else too. England's problem is imo, much the same as Norway. Everyone say we have a great team with players playing in the best teams in Europe. Ryerson at Dortmund, Østigård at Napoli, Ødegaard, Haaland, Bobb.
But the thing is that the player next to those, is far better at their club team, or at least fits better. These are all players that play in a position at their club because they fit there. Taking them out of that and putting them together with other players, might make them perform at a lower level.
I know pretty much every national team will have similar issues, but Ragnik hasn't put the country's best players in an XI. He's picked the players that will be best suited to how they'll play. Players that complement each other. There in lies a great deal of the relative success of some teams that don't necessarily have the best players.
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Discussed this with a couple of mates yesterday. It would be interesting to see say a best of 7 games head to head with Norway vs Bodø Glimt. Would the collective beat the individuals? Anyways - Knudsen would be a good choice for a coach, though I doubt he would take the job.

Back to the euros - I almost fell asleep watching England last night. Nice to see Super Jan play again! And good old Rebrov as the Ukrainian gaff! I had so high hopes for him when we signed him.
 
braineclipse said:
Is the pressure really that much higher in England than in other big footballing nations? Higher than in Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France etc?

What some of those countries have is a real identity for how to play. They deviate from that of course (for better and for worse), but there's a identity there. England's identity seems to more of a mixed bag, depending on the latest manager of choice. Perhaps a result of the more mixed approaches in the Premier League compared to Germany, Spain and Italy for example. But Brazil and Argentina have players all over the place and manage to keep a decent identity none the less.

Perhaps makes it more difficult for a manager to integrate the players into a cohesive system. But then again puts more responsibility on the manager to actually do that. Think Southgate has done well in that respect in previous tournaments, but in this one he's just not finding solutions that work.
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Brazil have to win and they have to win with style. We would just accept winning because we never win anything. You’re right. The other nations have pressure too. I don’t think our players deal with it very well. I remember Klinsmann was a pundit during one of the world cups for BBC and he said the Germans enjoy the big occasions, I don’t think we do. I think players like Bellingham and Foden seem to relish the big stage but I don’t think Harry Kane does, that may sound harsh and I’m not singling him out as collectively we don’t look like we enjoy the crunch moments. He hasn’t exactly thrived for England or Spurs in do or die games. Same can be said for the Arsenal contingent.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Brazil have to win and they have to win with style. We would just accept winning because we never win anything. You’re right. The other nations have pressure too. I don’t think our players deal with it very well. I remember Klinsmann was a pundit during one of the world cups for BBC and he said the Germans enjoy the big occasions, I don’t think we do. I think players like Bellingham and Foden seem to relish the big stage but I don’t think Harry Kane does, that may sound harsh and I’m not singling him out as collectively we don’t look like we enjoy the crunch moments. He hasn’t exactly thrived for England or Spurs in do or die games. Same can be said for the Arsenal contingent.
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But do teams relish it because they know how to do it
We are a country that every year gets further away timewise
That creates more pressure by default
 
Daisuk said:
Discussed this with a couple of mates yesterday. It would be interesting to see say a best of 7 games head to head with Norway vs Bodø Glimt. Would the collective beat the individuals? Anyways - Knudsen would be a good choice for a coach, though I doubt he would take the job.

Back to the euros - I almost fell asleep watching England last night. Nice to see Super Jan play again! And good old Rebrov as the Ukrainian gaff! I had so high hopes for him when we signed him.
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I did fall asleep watching England
Should caveat that I’m struggling with Bronchitis and a lack of sleep but it was so bad
 
Bedfordspurs said:
But do teams relish it because they know how to do it
We are a country that every year gets further away timewise
That creates more pressure by default
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Fair point. Spain hadn’t won anything for donkeys years until they got over the line in 2008 though. Same with Argentina, hadn’t won the World Cup in decades. I think it would help if we just accepted we have some great players but a lot of other countries also do and they don’t have the same level of expectation that we do. Uruguay have won more world cups than us and you don’t hear them claiming to be one of the favourites every World Cup or Copa. We almost need to forget about 1966 and just go out there and try and enjoy the occasion. It’s not like we have a pedigree for going close in tournaments either until very recently, compared to Germany who have reached 8 World Cup finals and Holland (a much smaller nation than England) having reached more World Cup finals than us.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Fair point. Spain hadn’t won anything for donkeys years until they got over the line in 2008 though. Same with Argentina, hadn’t won the World Cup in decades. I think it would help if we just accepted we have some great players but a lot of other countries also do and they don’t have the same level of expectation that we do. Uruguay have won more world cups than us and you don’t hear them claiming to be one of the favourites every World Cup or Copa. We almost need to forget about 1966 and just go out there and try and enjoy the occasion. It’s not like we have a pedigree for going close in tournaments either until very recently, compared to Germany who have reached 8 World Cup finals and Holland (a much smaller nation than England) having reached more World Cup finals than us.
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Uruguay are an anomaly and the history of there tournaments showed that. Well worth a read up on that era

Holland feel the pressure. They won nothing despite having downside players then had that 88 team which TBF was strong everywhere

Spain’s success came from Barcelona. That was the changing factor. The group of genuinely elite players

Argentina had massive, self created pressure on them until they won the World Cup recently. But what got them over the line was the win in the CONMEBOL before hand. That was an Argentina side that were missing players.

World cups favour environments too due to the timing and the weather. Not really an issue in the euros

So basically England have no excuse IMO. On paper the squad has the quality even with some poor choices in the squad selection by Southgate.
 
An interesting exercise would be to go through previous completions and highlight if the best team won it

I’d argue Belgium had the best side in the world for a period recently and didn’t win anything

The Holland conversation would be there for sure

Englands golden generation… possibly not not for me

Sure there are many others and more so with world cups too
 
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