The double DM pivot - is it working for us?

[glasgowspur]

As I see it when the full backs go forward the CBs should split and the dm drop between them allowing the CBs to move wider.
This isn't happening for three reasons, one the fbs aren't defending from the front when the ball is lost, two the deep lying ball player is moving to far forward so leaving the dm with a dilemma of dropping to cover the CBs over staying where he is to cover the space in front of the CBs. Finally when we lose the everyone is looking over their shoulder to see who is closing down or moving back and by then it's to late the pass has been made.
Lack of understanding,communication and practice. I think it will come but it will take time. But we need the fbs back overlapping.
Surprised no one had put Lamella going off at halftime on Thursday and our collapse together, he really does a lot of pressing and leads the front four in it. Without him they had time and they knew it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[LCLC]

Why have I just seen the 'build the defence around fazio' comment. The guy has looked utterly shaky when played and right now it's a toss up as to whether he can hack the pace of the prem.

As a defender you could be cannavaro and look poor if told to squeeze high whilst not one midfielder pressed, allowing teams to clip Balls in behind at will and with time.

We will look shaky until that changes

 

[mudshark]

What I do know is that we often appear utterly shapeless, somehow. Several times against Asteras, you saw the ball trickling across open space towards the flank, and you thought, "Surely there'll be a white shirt coming into the picture in a second to pick up the forward momentum," but no, nothing. Acres of space and not a white shirt to be seen; the ball easily collected by the opposition. The move that led to their penalty came from our own possession — Townsend having to carry the ball halfway across the pitch because no-one was making an angle for a pass, ultimately losing it out of whatever combination of frustration, impatience, lack of technique and stupidity then seized him. Players in space in possession of the ball who, instead of carrying it forwards, will try and play a short pass to someone else infield who's got three defenders up his аrsе. Others constantly running into traffic instead of looking to use a bit of width. Someone plays a decent through-ball gaining us 15 or 20 yards but, instead of even thinking about trying to turn, the receiving player immediately knocks it back a similar distance, negating the initial pass. What compounds matters is that, whenever we lose possession in these types of situations, we seem to be under pressure immediately — and the defence is an entire chapter on its own. The same fundamental errors are repeated again and again, game after game and I can't say I see much evidence yet that they're even being highlighted, much less worked on.

 

[Pirate55]

I think one factor in having two DMs is that no one DM takes primary responsibility for staying deep and shielding the back four.

Oh beast wherefore art thou? Why hast thou forsaken us? Where will we find another like thee?

 

[Modric THFC]

Double pivot? Seriously?
A double pivot is two central midfielders sitting deep.
Ryan Mason doesn't sit deep.

 

[Pirate55]

Double pivot? Seriously?
A double pivot is two central midfielders sitting deep.
Ryan Mason doesn't sit deep.

No it really doesn't. A double pivot, as the name implies, suggests two players starting deep and working very much as a piston. Just as a piston, when one goes forward, the other stays back. When mason gets forward, Capoue should be deep. The problem is it seems that no one told him!

 

[harr1984]

No it really doesn't. A double pivot, as the name implies, suggests two players starting deep and working very much as a piston. Just as a piston, when one goes forward, the other stays back. When mason gets forward, Capoue should be deep. The problem is it seems that no one told him!

Well who says that's what Poch wants Capoue or whoever is playing there to do? Since day one everyone has been talking about Poch's style based on what it was at Southampton and questioning why it's not happening here. Maybe just maybe, he isn't trying to get us to play like Southampton did - at least straight away. Maybe he recognised early on we haven't got a team ready for that system and will implement it gradually if at all? So many discussions around tactics seem to be based around how he got Southanpton playing, as crazy as it sounds he might not be setting us up to play like they did at the moment...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[metalgear]

Eh? Isn't that like saying the full-backs can't get forward and add width if the striker isn't doing his job and putting chances away?:?:

no, its another way of saying even quadruple pivots can't save us until we organize our defence. i.e. we attack/build the play from the back. your midfielders cannot be confident attackers if your backline is non-existent.

also spain popularized the double pivot in the 90's/00s but they did it with tiki taka through-the-middle football more than through the wings. i.e. their fullbacks were ready to defend the flanks, unlike poch who encourages fullbacks to abandon defensive duties in favour of attack.

and yes our fullbacks shouldn't be joining in attacks with kaboul and verts as our CBs until they work out their roles and responsibilities.

 

[metalgear]

Eh? Isn't that like saying the full-backs can't get forward and add width if the striker isn't doing his job and putting chances away?:?:

What about Thursday? Was he guiding them telepathically? Vertonghen is just as bad. Finding a suitable partner for Fazio should be a top priority as Dier isn't ready yet.

Before it is brought up: Being captain has nothing to do with organising a defense.

IMO we need faster more agile CBs to play the highline and with fullbacks to always defending.
Fazio and Dier i think will be the best combination of speed and positional awareness (next year not this).
Not so sure about verts as I think he has it in him, but no, never kaboul as a CB defending the high line.

A double pivot without fullbacks in defence ? We need this guy. Watch how he is able to anticipate balls to the channels, suddenly drops really deep, and takes crucial gambles at turn out to be key interceptions.

[video=youtube;qbFRs3lX3wE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFRs3lX3wE[/video]

 

[ringo]

I think the so called double pivot is the least of our worries defensively.

Good defences play together regularly so they build up an understanding.
Have pace and aerial ability in CB pairing.
Have a leader who coordinates.
Play in their best positions.
Are able to approach the game from a defensive mentality - ie they understand where attacking threats emerge, are able to adjust accordingly, are calm under pressure.
Have defensive shape and how to adjust that shape at all times drilled into them.

Sadly we don't have any of that really. Just a bunch of individual defenders, who a lot of the time play as if they have never played in the same defence together.
Part of the fault is in personnel and injuries, and part, I'm afraid, in training ground and tactics. For example, one reason we don't have shape a lot of the time is that we have the ball in their half, we lose possession, and we never recover our shape as they counter attack. That's training ground stuff. Or we are half pressing with a high line, as we seem to do a lot, they have the ball and enough time to just punt it forward - then there's no way we can get defensive shape. That's tactics and training ground.

 

[SteveAWOL]

IMO we need faster more agile CBs to play the highline and with fullbacks to always defending.
Fazio and Dier i think will be the best combination of speed and positional awareness (next year not this).
Not so sure about verts as I think he has it in him, but no, never kaboul as a CB defending the high line.

A double pivot without fullbacks in defence ? We need this guy. Watch how he is able to anticipate balls to the channels, suddenly drops really deep, and takes crucial gambles at turn out to be key interceptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFRs3lX3wE

Ledley King > Vincent Kompany

[video=youtube;F1uRqNdE2mI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1uRqNdE2mI[/video]

 

[Cochise]

I'd agree with glasgow at the top. With the fullbacks bombing on to create the width we need, the deep two should ideally be covering the space in between the CB's who split and the space in front of that back three.

The Poch system though seems to change during games between that system and one that incoorporates one of the full backs in the back three. If the ball is with the right FB, Kaboul, Vertonghen and Rose all sit back. It's only when the ball is played back that Rose then starts to move up the field whilst Mason drops into a space somewhere between Vertonghen and Rose. It's what gives us the lopsided look. The problem for us comes with how narrow the AM's are because it leaves a massive space infront of the full back that isn't advanced. Personally I feel that the double pivot will eventually work, but we will only look solid when those front 4 adjust their shape. Right now the advancing member of the double pivot is running into a space filled with opposition as Lamela, Chadli and Eriksen are already there. Perhaps one of those three staying wide or dropping deeper to move an opposition marker out of that space would work or at least give us a numerical advantage at the back to allow the fullback to push on without worrying about not leaving enough cover.

 

[billyiddo]

Well who says that's what Poch wants Capoue or whoever is playing there to do? Since day one everyone has been talking about Poch's style based on what it was at Southampton and questioning why it's not happening here. Maybe just maybe, he isn't trying to get us to play like Southampton did - at least straight away. Maybe he recognised early on we haven't got a team ready for that system and will implement it gradually if at all? So many discussions around tactics seem to be based around how he got Southanpton playing, as crazy as it sounds he might not be setting us up to play like they did at the moment...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

yeah i don't think we're playing with a pivot or high pressing - which i seem to see a lot of criticism based around. If he is trying to get us playing this way then of course that's a valid point to pick up on but i haven't seen anything to suggest we are.

 

[braineclipse]

no, its another way of saying even quadruple pivots can't save us until we organize our defence. i.e. we attack/build the play from the back. your midfielders cannot be confident attackers if your backline is non-existent.

also spain popularized the double pivot in the 90's/00s but they did it with tiki taka through-the-middle football more than through the wings. i.e. their fullbacks were ready to defend the flanks, unlike poch who encourages fullbacks to abandon defensive duties in favour of attack.

and yes our fullbacks shouldn't be joining in attacks with kaboul and verts as our CBs until they work out their roles and responsibilities.

Similarly our defenders will never be confident unless they can trust what's happening in front of them.

Defending very much starts from the front and currently it's lacking for us imo. We could perhaps go to a more defensive midfield duo to counter some of that, but not without losing a lot of attacking power imo.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

No it really doesn't. A double pivot, as the name implies, suggests two players starting deep and working very much as a piston. Just as a piston, when one goes forward, the other stays back. When mason gets forward, Capoue should be deep. The problem is it seems that no one told him!

It's just a new fancy made up word for the very basic requirement of any central midfield partnership that when one goes forward the other has the sense to sit in.

Gary Neville probably said it whilst pressing buttons on his fancy Dan Tactics board analysis machine and it's caught on.

 

[DTA]

It's just a new fancy made up word for the very basic requirement of any central midfield partnership that when one goes forward the other has the sense to sit in.

Gary Neville probably said it whilst pressing buttons on his fancy Dan Tactics board analysis machine and it's caught on.

Tim pretty much said what you said - the last paragraph.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Tim pretty much said what you said - the last paragraph.

Was that not about defensive midfielders though?

 

[Pirate55]

yeah i don't think we're playing with a pivot or high pressing - which i seem to see a lot of criticism based around. If he is trying to get us playing this way then of course that's a valid point to pick up on but i haven't seen anything to suggest we are.

Well how do you think we are playing then?

 

[billyiddo]

Well how do you think we are playing then?

in terms of those two points...without wanting to get in to a terminology debate we have Capoue as the defense minded CM and Mason as the attack minded CM - their roles seem clearly defined and i certainly don't see them playing as a pivot with them both alternating between defensive duties and attacking duties (in tandem with the other), which is my understanding of that term.

pressing? no we don't press or look to press in the way you would expect a team described in that way to do - certainly not in any consistent manner.

 

[Kingdawson]

I don't see us being a pressing team nowadays either. In terms of our cm's it seems we're not even playing with a designated DM for a lot of games (or Capoue is just atrociously bad positionally). I refuse to believe he's that bad so maybe he's been given instructions to express himself and do what he wants? hmmm again that seems unlikely as he's not even bombing forward and attacking? very weird.