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The decision to fire AVB

milo said:
A number of reports after he left said that AVB only wanted us to sign Soldado, Capoue and Chadli. Signing the others was meant to be a decision taken by the club which presumably means Baldini and Levy.
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If true, you have to wonder why the hell we would sign 4 major signings (one a record signing) over a manager's head like that. One or two, hmmm perhaps ok-ish.....4 or 5? That's tantamount to constructive dismissal, especially when they don't perform to a certain standard and the manager gets blame.

If this is really true then no wonder AVB wanted out; how soon before Baldini is held responsible for the buys as well?
Financial buys or football buys.

Crazy
 
BrainOfLevy said:
And so what is wrong with wanting to sprinkle that potential with some proven talent if you have been given an objective that's looking pretty difficult to achieve considering how many times we've achieved it before?
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I'm not saying it is right or wrong. I am saying that some reports said that there was friction between AVB and Levy from the off because our transfer policy had been explained to him before he came in and on being appointed he asked for players that did not fit with it.
 
glorygloryeze said:
If true, you have to wonder why the hell we would sign 4 major signings (one a record signing) over a manager's head like that. One or two, hmmm perhaps ok-ish.....4 or 5? That's tantamount to constructive dismissal, especially when they don't perform to a certain standard and the manager gets blame.

If this is really true then no wonder AVB wanted out; how soon before Baldini is held responsible for the buys as well?
Financial buys or football buys.

Crazy
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He played Paulinho in pretty much every game though so I'm not sure I buy it.
 
I think that list should also include Paulinho as an AVB signing. At least that's what I've always assumed considering how highly AVB spoke of him & the Portuguese-Brazil connection.

That would leave Chirches, Lamela and Eriksen as DoF signings, which feels correct since they are all young with potential for moving to Real Madrid development
 
glorygloryeze said:
If true, you have to wonder why the hell we would sign 4 major signings (one a record signing) over a manager's head like that. One or two, hmmm perhaps ok-ish.....4 or 5? That's tantamount to constructive dismissal, especially when they don't perform to a certain standard and the manager gets blame.

If this is really true then no wonder AVB wanted out; how soon before Baldini is held responsible for the buys as well?
Financial buys or football buys.

Crazy
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I don't see how it could be construed as constructive dismissal when his job title was first team coach and the club have brought in someone else with his blessing to oversee transfers.

If the club's policy is to buy young players to develop and sell on for a profit (which it appears to be) and this had been explained to him before he joined, the club would just be following its transfer policy. Presumably they think that they can get a better return on putting the money in Ayers than in the bank.
 
chancer said:
I think that list should also include Paulinho as an AVB signing. At least that's what I've always assumed considering how highly AVB spoke of him & the Portuguese-Brazil connection.

That would leave Chirches, Lamela and Eriksen as DoF signings, which feels correct since they are all young with potential for moving to Real Madrid development
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I think that you are right. I might have Chadli and Paulinho the wrong way around.
 
Of course, the biggest mystery revolves around 'the Lewis loan'…there was definitely a sum of some 60 million which was to be pledged (this was agreed when Bale was still staying for one more season)…then came the push…then came the money…then came the problems really…in fairness to Baldini, his remit is to sign players that will embed/outlast the coach whilst supplying him with what he (then) currently wants. I believe Lamela was overpriced by 10-15 mill based on Bale. Had we overspent on Benteke I'd probably have been happier…that's one which I don't know whether 'twas an AVB target or a Baldini/Levy wish...
 
milo said:
I think that you are right. I might have Chadli and Paulinho the wrong way around.
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Aye, I think that would probably make more sense:

> Paulinho, Soldado & Capoue - all established/now players - as coach's signings.

> Eriksen, Lamela, Vlad and Chadli as DoF/Development/Real Madrid signings.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
He played Paulinho in pretty much every game though so I'm not sure I buy it.
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My guess is that the first few were AVB signings: Paulinho (to get more goals from midfield and take some burden off Bale), Chadli (versatile, physival decently quick utility player that can play CF if need be and on either wing/wing-forward role), Soldado (finally poacher to get on end of Bale/Lennon's crosses, finish off breaks etc).

I think from around this point is when rumours of Bale leaving start...and perhaps is when the DoF took over...
 
milo said:
I'm not saying it is right or wrong. I am saying that some reports said that there was friction between AVB and Levy from the off because our transfer policy had been explained to him before he came in and on being appointed he asked for players that did not fit with it.
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Or maybe Levy is asking for targets to be achieved that do not fit with his strategy. I mean, I can imagine AVB being very happy with the idea of developing young players, but if he is also being told the club wants the CL it's not surprising he asked for some proven guys too.

Apparently Sherwood raised it with him in a transfer committee meeting and I'm not surprised AVB wanted out. Sherwood saying 'hang on a minute, you knew our policy and you agreed to it' with AVB left wondering if the club is really serious about reaching the CL if they keep wanting to sign players to sell on for a profit later on.
 
What would be interesting is to look at other clubs in PL/Europe that would be/are operating under the same conditions as AVB: i.e. wanting to achieve CL signing some players for here and now and other for future/profit, like the way Chancer listed in post #188
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Or maybe Levy is asking for targets to be achieved that do not fit with his strategy. I mean, I can imagine AVB being very happy with the idea of developing young players, but if he is also being told the club wants the CL it's not surprising he asked for some proven guys too.

Apparently Sherwood raised it with him in a transfer committee meeting and I'm not surprised AVB wanted out. Sherwood saying 'hang on a minute, you knew our policy and you agreed to it' with AVB left wondering if the club is really serious about reaching the CL if they keep wanting to sign players to sell on for a profit later on.
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I think that if AVB had stronger relationships with the key players at the club, he would have ridden out the poor results, and still be at the club now.

I'd be interested in a source for Sherwood's comment. It sounds a bit fanciful to me.
 
So AVB was keen on us signing nogoaldado, Invisibilinho, Chadli (who is playing much better since AVB left btw) and Capoue??????

Apologies for slating Baldini if this is the case and i'm willing to give him another season.
 
milo said:
I think that if AVB had stronger relationships with the key players at the club, he would have ridden out the poor results, and still be at the club now.

I'd be interested in a source for Sherwood's comment. It sounds a bit fanciful to me.
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I agree fully. As was made clear by the tabloid media at the time of the sacking the results and our league position really weren't bad enough to sack a manager.

I've gone through it in the past, but the way the sacking happened over two days it really didn't seem like a "get out, you're done", but more of a discussion that ended with the conclusion that it wasn't in anyone's best interest to keep going down the path we were on.

I think the ongoing conflicts with players, coaches, other backroom staff along possibly with Levy was just too much in the end. I think AVB realized it too, although I have nothing to back that up with. He just seemed resigned in the end, like he knew he had already failed and that there was no way out.
 
braineclipse said:
I agree fully. As was made clear by the tabloid media at the time of the sacking the results and our league position really weren't bad enough to sack a manager.

I've gone through it in the past, but the way the sacking happened over two days it really didn't seem like a "get out, you're done", but more of a discussion that ended with the conclusion that it wasn't in anyone's best interest to keep going down the path we were on.

I think the ongoing conflicts with players, coaches, other backroom staff along possibly with Levy was just too much in the end. I think AVB realized it too, although I have nothing to back that up with. He just seemed resigned in the end, like he knew he had already failed and that there was no way out.
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I think you're probably close to nail on head here.
 
milo said:
I think that if AVB had stronger relationships with the key players at the club, he would have ridden out the poor results, and still be at the club now.

I'd be interested in a source for Sherwood's comment. It sounds a bit fanciful to me.
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Clearly. But if you've been brought in to affect change, you're always going to **** some people off. Probably people who were influential in the previous regime. It then becomes about whether you have the guts to stay the course or whether you want to give up. And with Levy, keeping the guys like Sherwood around that keep pulling him in the other direction (I'm not suggesting anything sinister here, just stating the fact that AVB and Sherwood will have different ideas) he never really committed to letting AVB see through the change he was brought in to do.
 
glorygloryeze said:
What would be interesting is to look at other clubs in PL/Europe that would be/are operating under the same conditions as AVB: i.e. wanting to achieve CL signing some players for here and now and other for future/profit, like the way Chancer listed in post #188
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Yup. Everyone says 'look at Barca, Madrid, Bayern, PSG, City, they all change their coaches' and are trying to make out this is part of the modern game. That any club that wants to be successful should be able to do it immediately and accept rapid change as part of that requirement.

But that's not acknowledging the truth of where we want to be. We aren't a club with unlimited finances for whom punching at our weight is finishing in the top 2 every year. We are a club who's actual weight is 6th, and are looking to push on without the finances of others. Dortmund took a season of 6th and 5th (in the less impressive German league) before Klopp got them firing again. Barca had a couple of years mid-table before their academy players exploded onto the scene. We need to do something different to push on, and everyone seems to want to refuse the fact that we may need to take some pain in terms of short term results to ultimately feel the benefits of the medicine that will be the long term structure.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Clearly. But if you've been brought in to affect change, you're always going to **** some people off. Probably people who were influential in the previous regime. It then becomes about whether you have the guts to stay the course or whether you want to give up. And with Levy, keeping the guys like Sherwood around that keep pulling him in the other direction (I'm not suggesting anything sinister here, just stating the fact that AVB and Sherwood will have different ideas) he never really committed to letting AVB see through the change he was brought in to do.
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It is more the relationship with Baldini, Levy, Freund and the medical staff that I was referring to. Freund was Sherwood's man, so maybe that explains the issues there but it doesn't account for the others.

I think that you are also overstating AVB's brief. He was first team coach, it was not his job to overhaul the club.
 
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