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Tanguy Ndombele

Bedfordspurs said:
Cannot criticise arsenal but our better players with the ball need to offer more and work more when we’re being pressed
As you say, movement is key too
Tanguy and Bale didn’t move. That’s two key ball players killing some of the orotundity to negate that press.
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Points to a lack of coaching IMO. Back in those Poch teams we had clear patterns of play to get the ball up the pitch, we don’t really have them now.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Points to a lack of coaching IMO. Back in those Poch teams we had clear patterns of play to get the ball up the pitch, we don’t really have them now.
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Maybe
But we played exactly the same way at arsenal under Poch too
Which makes me say it’s mentality as much as coaching
We did press in recent games, but to press takes work and effort. We had none of that
 
elltrev said:
Personally I think too many excuses are being made for Ndombele here. I watched the first half again last night, and there’s too many times where defenders are looking for an option and Ndombele is making no effort whatsoever to move into space, often whilst pointing for the pass to go to another defender instead. I don’t know whether it’s fatigue, laziness, fear of making a mistake, fear of being fouled / hurt... but something isn’t right there.
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Just made a couple of video clips as examples of what I'm talking about.

First one: Ndombele makes no effort to get on the ball whatsoever, pointing for the pass to go backwards to another player instead:


Second one, 5 minutes later: he initially makes a small amount of effort to get on the ball, doesn't receive it, gets frustrated, jogs away, points for the pass to go to another defender, and eventually complains / gets frustrated again. When the ball finally gets passed to him at the end of the clip, he shows the most energy of the entire 35 seconds.

 
Baleforce said:
Doesn't matter how well organised a press is if players further up the pitch make sure they are always open for a hot pass.

If you are not open it's because you are not working hard enough.
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Good pressing teams are very well coached to press. Good teams at playing through a press are coached in how to play through the press. I don’t think we’re coached to press or play through one. I only ever expect us to beat teams who make the mistake of sitting back against us. Unfortunately the number of those teams is dwindling.
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Good pressing teams are very well coached to press. Good teams at playing through a press are coached in how to play brought the press. I don’t think we’re coached to press or play through one. I only ever expect us to beat teams who make the mistake of sitting back against us. Unfortunately the number of those teams is dwindling.
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Yep
We have never been good against pressing sides even under Poch. We had to rely on a bit of brilliance to change things
And a team of average players coached well can be very effective if they all work hard enough. This was an average arsenal side working hard
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Good pressing teams are very well coached to press. Good teams at playing through a press are coached in how to play through the press. I don’t think we’re coached to press or play through one. I only ever expect us to beat teams who make the mistake of sitting back against us. Unfortunately the number of those teams is dwindling.
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If our players need specific coaching to move into space then we have serious issues.
 
elltrev said:
Just made a couple of video clips as examples of what I'm talking about.

First one: Ndombele makes no effort to get on the ball whatsoever, pointing for the pass to go backwards to another player instead:


Second one, 5 minutes later: he initially makes a small amount of effort to get on the ball, doesn't receive it, gets frustrated, jogs away, points for the pass to go to another defender, and eventually complains / gets frustrated again. When the ball finally gets passed to him at the end of the clip, he shows the most energy of the entire 35 seconds.

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nice analysis - see Tyler managed to reel off how many points we’ve dropped to Goons from winning positions I’m sure he doesn’t have that level of detail for any other match he drones over!
 
Baleforce said:
If our players need specific coaching to move into space then we have serious issues.
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You don’t get it mate.... it’s about having a pattern of play. A team doesn’t work by single players moving, the movements need to be orchestrated. I think our players are just left to their own devices on the pitch instead of having various patterns of play to progress the ball.
When you are being pressed, you typically have very little time on the ball, you need to know without really even looking where your option to transition will be.

I remember Monaco beating us in the CL at Wembley. Their transition through our press was superb, you could see how well coached it was. Each player knew exactly what his passing option would be before he received the ball.
 
Finney Is Back said:
You don’t get it mate.... it’s about having a pattern of play. A team doesn’t work by single players moving, the movements need to be orchestrated. I think our players are just left to their own devices on the pitch instead of having various patterns of play to progress the ball.
When you are being pressed, you typically have very little time on the ball, you need to know without really even looking where your option to transition will be.

I remember Monaco beating us in the CL at Wembley. Their transition through our press was superb, you could see how well coached it was. Each player knew exactly what his passing option would be before he received the ball.
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yes, but the movement is defined by the spaces the defence doesn't cover, the ball should always go into space and players should always be moving into space to receive it

you can't predefine angles and weight of pass as the opposition are not statically placed, they move too
 
Baleforce said:
yes, but the movement is defined by the spaces the defence doesn't cover, the ball should always go into space and players should always be moving into space to receive it

you can't predefine angles and weight of pass as the opposition are not statically placed, they move too
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The players need to know which space.... player A will move here and as he does that players B, C, D and E will move there. Player A receives ball, barely needs to look up, he knows he can pass it to player’s B or C, as the ball is on its way to them they know they will have a pass to player A or D, etc.... It’s why coaching is so important. Otherwise clubs like ours wouldn’t pay somebody £15m a year to.... erm you know... coach!
 
Finney Is Back said:
The players need to know which space.... player A will move here and as he does that players B, C, D and E will move there. Player A receives ball, barely needs to look up, he knows he can pass it to player’s B or C, as the ball is on its way to them they know they will have a pass to player A or D, etc.... It’s why coaching is so important. Otherwise clubs like ours wouldn’t pay somebody £15m a year to.... erm you know... coach!
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indeed, but the problem isn't the players not knowing what's coming next, the problem, to use your example, is players B and C not getting separation, not making the feints and moves required to confuse and evade their markers
 
Baleforce said:
indeed, but the problem isn't the players not knowing what's coming next, the problem, to use your example, is players B and C not getting separation, not making the feints and moves required to confuse and evade their markers
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Because they’re not being coached on what positions they should take up IMO. I think we are a bunch of good, but poorly coached, players
 
MKSpur said:
nice analysis - see Tyler managed to reel off how many points we’ve dropped to Goons from winning positions I’m sure he doesn’t have that level of detail for any other match he drones over!
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Him and Smith were a total joke yesterday, they slated us for 90 minutes
 
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